IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[VeryVeritas]

There is no volleyball court at sports, sand toys but no volleyball

please explain "sand toys" would it be typical for everyone to take their shoes off? If there a place to put them, or do people just leave them all over?

Thanks!

 

[Tr.]

It occurred to me yesterday (just posting about it now) after reading a post that I don't know what floor LS/HT's apartment was on, and what floor DR's apartment was on. The altercation was recorded on the 5th Fl. So... I'm thinking perhaps LS/CR went to LS's apt looking for her phone - already so out of it that she didn't realize it was left back at the bar. There she is also not wearing shoes, well into her building and doesn't put another pair on? On the other hand, if they were on DR's floor then why were they there to see him? {hey DR are you feeling like we are?}

It's been mentioned what floor LS lived on...either 4th or 5th i think.

I think that LS may have been going home for the night after leaving the bar. Maybe she and CR planned on finding another party in Smallwood but she had went full circle at that point and I don't see why she would be escorting CR home for any reason other than she felt obligated to do so after the altercation.
She wasn't planning on spending the night at his place or she would have likely done so after taking him home.

So the altercation (imo) is critical because it changed their entire path and planned timeline. The altercation determined their direction.
Plan or coincidence?

I originally read that MB said that they arrived "a little past 3:00 am".
That's at least 10 min from the point of exiting the alley.
That's at least 34 min after leaving the bar.
" " " 1 hr 14 min after entering the bar
and probably 1 1/2 hr after "originally" leaving JR's apartment

3:30 would be 2 hrs after "originally" leaving JR's apartment if they walked straight to the bar.

Also, I've heard three of different versions of MB's account.
From "she wanted to party with me but I had homework", to "she told me she was going to JR's", to" she just turned and went back out the door and that's the last I saw her".

HT said early on that she was at JR's as well.

 

[Tr.]

I'm not sure what the focusing on the hat was about, but it is extreeeeeeeeemely common for guys (especially with money) to buy these nice fitted hats just for the sake of having hats. My cousin is from new York and he has a huge collection hanging in his wall, all different teams and styles of the hats... From what I understand it's just a fashion statement.

Thanks for that.
On my side of town the boys have those hats as well. I usually see them four to a car prowling the neighborhoods.
I don't know what the significance of AB's hat is ie..fashion or other but it is a fashion worn by gang affiliates and as you point out, not necessarily exclusive to gangs.

 

[Darcyline]

An early local here said that it would be really common for people to take their shoes off in the sandpit. Someone even argued that she may have put someone else's shoes on since there really isn't much difference between random female flip flops or ballet flats, but I think that was later discredited for some reason.


And thanks jenniek!

 

[VeryVeritas]

It's been mentioned what floor LS lived on...either 4th or 5th i think.

I think that LS may have been going home for the night after leaving the bar. Maybe she and CR planned on finding another party in Smallwood but she had went full circle at that point and I don't see why she would be escorting CR home for any reason other than she felt obligated to do so after the altercation.
She wasn't planning on spending the night at his place or she would have likely done so after taking him home.

So the altercation (imo) is critical because it changed their entire path and planned timeline. The altercation determined their direction.
Plan or coincidence?

Well lets stop and think about this. What makes you think she was going home for the night? Do you think CR/LS had been to LS apt or not? Can that be determined by the video on the 5th floor if that's the same floor as her apt. (Still would like to know DR's floor too) It seems that the altercation happened before reaching her apt, but why would that stop LS from at least stopping in at her own apt? I got this "it's our TURF" kind of feeling from all of this and that's why I keep asking what was this altercation about? Surely those attacking CR had to give some reason why they behaved that way. Who would give these guys that kind of power and free reign over Smallwood when they didn't live there? That just all makes no sense to me. They weren't just casually walking by outside.

If LS was ready to call it a night and leave behind her shoes and phone, wouldn't you agree already something was off? I'm trying to imagine here just how out of it they both must have been even at this stage. And LE insisted that the altercation had nothing to do with LS, so she clearly could have just zipped into her apt, grabbed some shoes, maybe some ice for CR, and then walked him home. It's as though rational thought was pretty much gone... they were almost to the point of zombies? When I think of it that way, some things seem to fit better.

I originally read that MB said that they arrived "a little past 3:00 am".
That's at least 10 min from the point of exiting the alley.
That's at least 34 min after leaving the bar.
" " " 1 hr 14 min after entering the bar
and probably 1 1/2 hr after "originally" leaving JR's apartment

3:30 would be 2 hrs after "originally" leaving JR's apartment if they walked straight to the bar.

My understanding was that they left JR's at 12:30-ish 2 hrs would be 2:30 about the time they left Sports. also conveniently coinciding with CR's total amnesia from then until morning. Can someone confirm the time and source of leaving JR's for Sports? I also thought they were with DR at this point. Did they walk with DR(or others) to Smallwood on the way to Sports? If they paused and spent time at Smallwood that could be another point where they may have been exposed to something. That could push the time clock for peaking out a little more to perhaps 3:00(a crucial time)

Also, I've heard three of different versions of MB's account.
From "she wanted to party with me but I had homework", to "she told me she was going to JR's", to" she just turned and went back out the door and that's the last I saw her".

Yes, me too, the first statements that came out were different than later statements. But stop again and think... if she was really ready to call it a night back at Smallwood, and was totally out of it, it seems extremely unlikely that at 3:00 when she should have been even more out of it, she would be sounding so eager to "party" that just sounds a lot more like what she would say when she first showed up at CR's around midnight. It seems increasingly out of place at 3:00am given the circumstances.
I am starting to doubt MB's account as much as JR's of her "rounding the corner" Earlier my thoughts had been that her and CR had only had a couple of drinks and the party hadn't really started yet. I kept ignoring the fact that CR was crashing hard. This disparity of CR being the lightweight and her being raring to go isn't very likely to me. But of course MB then passes the buck to JR on this and JR has the other pivotal statement that I don't buy. So I feel it's a LIE that she wanted to go party at JR's at 3:00 and I feel it's a LIE that she rounded that corner and walked down N. College alone. I think it's more likely that maybe she wanted to get home, but now couldn't do it. She didn't want to stay at CR/MB's (assuming she was still conscious at this point) I still don't get how JR gets in the picture here at 3:00 if she is incapacitated. If he just happened to be there... ok nice coincidence but possible. if he wasn't there, then what would happen? Someone might call him... others there might bring LS to him... or someone might go get him. From JR's attributed "if you can walk to the door" statement it seems that he took responsibility for her, but clearly knew she was gone. So then I go back and think about MB's statements... It's as though he wants to blame this on LS when at this hour people were either studying or crashing. If we are to assume she was only slightly messed up at this point and really was still seeking to do more partying at this stage of the night, then what would she have done at JR's in yet another short interval of time that would have made him doubt she could make it to the door? that also doesn't make sense. Seems more likely that she showed up there not wanting to party, but already barely able to find the door, if she was conscious. If her state was anything like CR's she probably could have been coaxed into a lot of things, or crashed hard at JR's perhaps prompting a call to DR from JR {why?}

HT said early on that she was at JR's as well.

I have not seen anything that HT said she was at JR's that night. I would like to know her full timeline that night. What I have read said that she had been at JR's a lot the previous year. Whatever that meant.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Alcohol-related blackouts, in which the person has either no memory (block blackouts) or dicey (fragmented blackouts) from a block of time usually occur when someone's blood alcohol content (BAC) rises very quickly. This form of amnesia is less likely to occur when the BAC slowly increases to the same level.

Xanax (alprazolam) alone can also have amnestic effects at high doses.

My understanding is that both substances cause primarily anterograde amnesia (no new memories).

 

[webrocket]

Alcohol-related blackouts, in which the person has either no memory (block blackouts) or dicey (fragmented blackouts) from a block of time usually occur when someone's blood alcohol content (BAC) rises very quickly. This form of amnesia is less likely to occur when the BAC slowly increases to the same level.

Xanax (alprazolam) alone can also have amnestic effects at high doses.

My understanding is that both substances cause primarily anterograde amnesia (no new memories).

and that's why it would be ill-advised for these people to be talking to the police about what happened between midnight and 4:30 a.m.

even if Lauren had made it safely home that morning, I seriously doubt any of them would remember many details of those last 4-5 hours. they'd be tripped up by cops wanting to pin it on one of them by their confusing where they were at 2 a.m., 3 a.m.,4 a.m. and the general sequence of events.

 

[VeryVeritas]

and that's why it would be ill-advised for these people to be talking to the police about what happened between midnight and 4:30 a.m.

even if Lauren had made it safely home that morning, I seriously doubt any of them would remember many details of those last 4-5 hours. they'd be tripped up by cops wanting to pin it on one of them by their confusing where they were at 2 a.m., 3 a.m.,4 a.m. and the general sequence of events.

Yet someone made a 4:15 call and LS is *poof - gone. Not everyone has amnesia. MB certainly didn't, he studied and scored well on a test.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Alcohol-related blackouts, in which the person has either no memory (block blackouts) or dicey (fragmented blackouts) from a block of time usually occur when someone's blood alcohol content (BAC) rises very quickly. This form of amnesia is less likely to occur when the BAC slowly increases to the same level.

Xanax (alprazolam) alone can also have amnestic effects at high doses.

My understanding is that both substances cause primarily anterograde amnesia (no new memories).

From the facts as we know them, is there anyway to differentiate clues in this case that would point to:
Rophynol vs. GHB vs. sudden high amounts of BA vs. Xanax vs. some combination?

high amounts of alcohol could be determined by finding out from Sports what CR/LS were drinking and/or check their bankcard charges.

I'm guessing a combination might have caused someone to black out much sooner... like if someone were already high from a mix of xanax and coke as speculated, then put down a few ounces of alcohol but someone slipped in GHB they probably wouldn't get out of the bar 20 minutes later?


Thanks!!

 

[Tr.]

What makes you think she was going home for the night?

I have not seen anything that HT said she was at JR's that night. I would like to know her full timeline that night. What I have read said that she had been at JR's a lot the previous year. Whatever that meant.

You're right..In this article HT says she was hanging out with LS until 12:30
and then LS and DR went to 5 North sometime after 12:30.
But I don't see where LS leaves Jr's with anyone other that CR to head for the bar.,,

"Hadar Tamir, Spierer's roommate at Smallwood Plaza apartments, on Monday filled in more details of that morning, saying Spierer was hanging out with her until 12:30 a.m., then went with another Smallwood resident, David Rohn, to friend Jay Rosenbaum's apartment up the street.

Spierer, Rohn and Rosenbaum watched a basketball game at Rosenbaum's, said Tamir, who is friends with Rohn and Rosenbaum. They were joined there by Corey Rossman, who lives two doors down, she said. Tamir said Mike Beth, Rossman's roommate, was also there.

A while later, Rossman and Spierer went to a bar, Tamir said, and Rohn returned to Smallwood."

[URL="http://www.lohud.com/article/20110614/NEWS02/106140330/Indiana-police-acknowledge-rumor-overdose-by-missing-college-student?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News"

So...if this is all accurate then any knowledge by HT as to alcohol supplies at JR's that night would have to be second hand knowledge at best.

So... then we could be looking at say:
- 12:45 - 1:30 am partying/ possible drug use
- 1:45 to 2:25 am drinking at bar / possible mixing
- 3:00 to 3:30 am hard crash

 

[VeryVeritas]

If a friend died accidently and suddenly from drugs, etc... but you really did care about this person and had some respect for them wouldn't you treat the body differently? A lot of the ideas about where to find a body seem cold hearted. What if the person had a soul, and just felt it had to be covered up so it wouldn't get pinned on them? When I put myself in that mindset, I'd be thinking - Cemetery, mausoleum. I wonder if Cemeteries have an eye out for such things? For example in this part of the country there are quite a few old cemeteries off of roadways where the stones date back a 150 years or more sometimes. Who would know? Or a newer cemetery with no one around at night... with fresh graves. Dig a few feet out as the ground is usually soft, then cover it back up. who would think to look there? If they had even more of a conscience perhaps they would seek out a Jewish area in a Cemetery, or some place that would give due respect.

 

[Gabby66]

I never bought amnesia from a fight If he was so bad off that he had amnesia, that sure must have been some punch in the face! It sounds like it would have nearly had to knock him out. If it was really that hard, how on earth was he able to walk home? If he was that bad off, I not only have a hard time believing that he could make it back, but according to the boys who supposedly saw him the next day at the pharmacy, he didn't really look like he had a mark on him. That's weird to me. I think amnesia was either drug-induced, or a very convenient excuse to not have to talk about anything.

 

[Tr.]

If LS was ready to call it a night and leave behind her shoes and phone, wouldn't you agree already something was off? I'm trying to imagine here just how out of it they both must have been even at this stage. And LE insisted that the altercation had nothing to do with LS, so she clearly could have just zipped into her apt, grabbed some shoes, maybe some ice for CR, and then walked him home. It's as though rational thought was pretty much gone... they were almost to the point of zombies? When I think of it that way, some things seem to fit better.

Yes. LE stated in a press conference that LS never went in to her apartment after leaving the bar and going to Small Wood.

In the right context it's easy to assume that this decision was by choice.
Yet after the altercation there were real reasons to go to the apartment. As you mentioned first aid for CR or to get away from the confrontation.
What caused LS and CR to choose the exit instead?

I get the feeling that the nature of the altercation prevented them from going to the apartment. Maybe someone blocked their path, used intimidating words or body language, or indicated more blows may be forthcoming "if you don't get the f*** outa here"...?
This is what I mean by directing their path.

So..why not hike up or down a floor to another apartment for help?
Fight or flight, panic, disorientation or as another poster mentioned, maybe CR ran for the door and LS just followed him out.

 

[Auburn]

I never bought amnesia from a fight If he was so bad off that he had amnesia, that sure must have been some punch in the face! It sounds like it would have nearly had to knock him out. If it was really that hard, how on earth was he able to walk home? If he was that bad off, I not only have a hard time believing that he could make it back, but according to the boys who supposedly saw him the next day at the pharmacy, he didn't really look like he had a mark on him. That's weird to me. I think amnesia was either drug-induced, or a very convenient excuse to not have to talk about anything.

But IF he was taking pills(such as xanax) then he most likely wouldn't remember anything. Xanax bars are like memory erasers and if you combine them with alcohol then you may as well multiply that by 10.


* Gah. That's what I get for not completely reading your post. You do acknowledge it could be drug-induced type amnesia...tho you don't seem to sound like you think it likely. I guess I seem to think that is the likely scenerio as there was talk of LS saying she had taken a bunch of xanax,and then wasn't there talk of it on some of the POI's fb?

 

[WideOpen]

Yes. LE stated in a press conference that LS never went in to her apartment after leaving the bar and going to Small Wood.

In the right context it's easy to assume that this decision was by choice.
Yet after the altercation there were real reasons to go to the apartment. As you mentioned first aid for CR or to get away from the confrontation.
What caused LS and CR to choose the exit instead?

I get the feeling that the nature of the altercation prevented them from going to the apartment. Maybe someone blocked their path, used intimidating words or body language, or indicated more blows may be forthcoming "if you don't get the f*** outa here"...?
This is what I mean by directing their path.

So..why not hike up or down a floor to another apartment for help?
Fight or flight, panic, disorientation or as another poster mentioned, maybe CR ran for the door and LS just followed him out.

I wondered if after the fight they fled because CR had a no trespass issued at Smallwood and they got the heck outta dodge assuming security might be called and on the way. Even in a drunken stupor folks are motivated by the threat of police involvement and fines that go along with those charges.
JMO

 

[VeryVeritas]

I wondered if after the fight they fled because CR had a no trespass issued at Smallwood and they got the heck outta dodge assuming security might be called and on the way. Even in a drunken stupor folks are motivated by the threat of police involvement and fines that go along with those charges.
JMO

Do you realize that ZO who did the pounding on CR doesn't live in that building? what makes him the rule enforcer of the building? He has more of a right to be there punching people than LS has with a friend walking her home when she does live there? That sure seems strange to me, especially when ZO's own reputation isn't smelling rosy. There has been no statement about why CR was punched or what words were exchanged.

 

[Tr.]

I wondered if after the fight they fled because CR had a no trespass issued at Smallwood and they got the heck outta dodge assuming security might be called and on the way. Even in a drunken stupor folks are motivated by the threat of police involvement and fines that go along with those charges.
JMO

It's possible but they had to know they were on security tapes so a review of those would reveal the trespass.
The cops being called and being busted for PI would be a reason to bolt for sure.
But are you really dodging the police by going back outside and stumbling up the alley to another building or would ducking into another apartment be a better option?

It's hard to say what thought processes were at work.

 

[Alliecog]

please explain "sand toys" would it be typical for everyone to take their shoes off? If there a place to put them, or do people just leave them all over?

Thanks!

Sand toys as in buckets and molds for castles, shovels...

I've taken my shoes off there, the dry sand is hard to walk through by the bar it's a few inches thick. Some people take them off, but usually keep them close by because it can get pretty busy there. There are lots of little seating areas with tables and adirondack (sp?) chairs, there are three big gliders with canopies that can seat 6-8 people, there are booths and chairs all out back as well as am inside bar and an upstairs. It's a pretty big bar with lots of places to sit. But as far as I've noticed people tend to keep their shoes close by, waitress service is popular and large groups of people gather at sports so I'd imagine it would be easy to make sure someone watches your stuff, shoes for example.

 

[Tr.]

Do you realize that ZO who did the pounding on CR doesn't live in that building? what makes him the rule enforcer of the building? He has more of a right to be there punching people than LS has with a friend walking her home when she does live there? That sure seems strange to me, especially when ZO's own reputation isn't smelling rosy. There has been no statement about why CR was punched or what words were exchanged.

This is another good point. ZO is likely very familiar with the Smallwood building and would know that cameras are all over.
But that doesn't stop him from committing a battery or assault on CR.

Why is he not worried about jackin this guy on video?
- Either he isn't worried about the consequence
- or he knows that CR won't report it
- or what ever the reason for the altercation, it trumped any potential consequence.
- or..?

 

[soyesterday]

If a friend died accidently and suddenly from drugs, etc... but you really did care about this person and had some respect for them wouldn't you treat the body differently? A lot of the ideas about where to find a body seem cold hearted. What if the person had a soul, and just felt it had to be covered up so it wouldn't get pinned on them? When I put myself in that mindset, I'd be thinking - Cemetery, mausoleum. I wonder if Cemeteries have an eye out for such things? For example in this part of the country there are quite a few old cemeteries off of roadways where the stones date back a 150 years or more sometimes. Who would know? Or a newer cemetery with no one around at night... with fresh graves. Dig a few feet out as the ground is usually soft, then cover it back up. who would think to look there? If they had even more of a conscience perhaps they would seek out a Jewish area in a Cemetery, or some place that would give due respect.

I also mentioned at one point for example if JW and LS did have a fight later that morning and something happened "accidentally" or even things went too far....he was her boyfriend....he supposedly loved her for years....could he have maybe brought her body to someplace only "special" to the two of them? Someplace only they knew about?
I'm not saying he is the one that killed her, but if he was w/ her when she died or did have her body after, it doesn't automatically mean he "dumped" her somewhere. Maybe he wasn't that cold hearted, but something horrible happened and the girl he loved was now "gone" and he brought her and "laid her to rest" somewhere only they knew about.
Just a theory.
I only wish if something like this happened....her family could still have closure. It's not fair to them at all.