IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[Jupiter812]

This is from the Comments section of the article. But if she's in a suitcase or dufflebag she wouldn't be noticed.

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Q. Aren't apartments and commercial buildings serviced by private contractors like Hoosier, Sears and Sons etc rather than the City and don't they dump their trash locally?

A. Yea they dump it at the transfer station like everyone else.

A. To make it to Terre Haute a body would be hard to miss. All the trash is dumped out on the floor in a large building and then is pushed around and and moved several times. It's possible but I doubt she wouldn't have been noticed.

 

[Gabby66]

Gabby-I would be oblivious to cameras EXCEPT if I was doing something illegal. Like, if I was hiding a body suddenly security cameras would become much, much more important. I think most people know in the back of their heads they exist, but it usually isn't an issue or something you would think about unless...well, you have a dead body on your hands.
But, the truly unfortunate thing is even if I am wrong there it could have been just missed on camera. The area I am leaning toward being most likely that she died if it was an OD is not covered by cameras as well as Smallwood or the main strip. JR/CR/MB's place is not as covered and neither is JW's for that matter. Locals have said it is very possible that something could have happened there and not been caught on camera for that reason.
Extremely frustrating-I am starting to feel like we need to Big Brother it and put high res cameras everywhere

Oh and searching the landfill-most landfills I know are absolutely huge and very dangerous. I know that doesn't excuse it, but how DO people effectively search for a needle in a haystack-a dangerous haystack that normal people cannot just enter? Cranes, yes, but if she was wrapped up well would those even be effective?

Thank you. I understand that one would be more concerned about cameras, given a crime, but if they aren't really aware of where they are prior to committing said crime, then how would they know where to walk to avoid them? Those little "eyeball" cameras are really difficult to tell to where they are pointing. I hadn't really thought about this before but I just REALLY feel that if there were trying to hide a body, it would take hours to drive or walk around on campus to learn where cameras are/aren't, to know which route to avoid. I still am leaning towards it being way too much of a coincidence for something to have happened in the alley, just out of camera. The thing that makes me still consider the alley, is that LE mentioned they had "activity" on camera. Personally, I am considering that they've heard rumors of something and that there was the start of another altercation shown on video (or LS fainting or something), but that they continued down the alley, and walked out of camera's view. LE has been very mum, but they have made sure to use the word "ACTIVITY", making me think it's a message to the perps that they have SOMETHING. I just don't think they have enough for a conviction, so there are no arrests yet. However, for this to have happened, I think LS was taken to 5 North still. What confuses me is that IF ZO or others were involved in the alley, why would he take her to the enemy's place - unless it was a fight gone wrong and she was accidentally hurt. I just really feel that she ended up at 5 North b/c that seems to be the only logical place with no cameras around for a later exit.

To those who know about the area, is there an exit route from 5 North, where someone could have left in a car, to go off campus, without being seen on any cameras?

 

[Alliecog]

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/landfill-not-yet-searched-in-lauren-spierer-case/#entry

Landfills have NOT BEEN SEARCHED.

 

[EllaMae]

Here are my questions......Can cadaver dogs tell if a body was in a specific dumpster at any time, even if the body is no longer there? Does the scent of a dead body mixed in with other waste make it impossible for a dog to detect after all this time has gone by? Is it too late to take the cadaver dogs around to all the dumpsters in the area?

 

[Alliecog]

Thank you. I understand that one would be more concerned about cameras, given a crime, but if they aren't really aware of where they are prior to committing said crime, then how would they know where to walk to avoid them? Those little "eyeball" cameras are really difficult to tell to where they are pointing. I hadn't really thought about this before but I just REALLY feel that if there were trying to hide a body, it would take hours to drive or walk around on campus to learn where cameras are/aren't, to know which route to avoid. I still am leaning towards it being way too much of a coincidence for something to have happened in the alley, just out of camera. The thing that makes me still consider the alley, is that LE mentioned they had "activity" on camera. Personally, I am considering that they've heard rumors of something and that there was the start of another altercation shown on video (or LS fainting or something), but that they continued down the alley, and walked out of camera's view. LE has been very mum, but they have made sure to use the word "ACTIVITY", making me think it's a message to the perps that they have SOMETHING. I just don't think they have enough for a conviction, so there are no arrests yet. However, for this to have happened, I think LS was taken to 5 North still. What confuses me is that IF ZO or others were involved in the alley, why would he take her to the enemy's place - unless it was a fight gone wrong and she was accidentally hurt. I just really feel that she ended up at 5 North b/c that seems to be the only logical place with no cameras around for a later exit.

To those who know about the area, is there an exit route from 5 North, where someone could have left in a car, to go off campus, without being seen on any cameras?

Well 5 north is close to the "edge of town" as far as businesses go. There may be cameras on some businesses but it's nothing like downtown where there are cameras everywhere. I'm not sure about cameras on lights and such, haven't noticed many if any in the area.

 

[Darcyline]

Oh yeah I definitely don't think the actual murder/death/abduction happened in that alley and just happened to be missed by cameras. I actually pretty much believe the timeline given until they reach CR's-I still think Lauren was alive at that point.
The activity has haunted me from the moment they said it, but I sort of assume maybe it gives some clues, but isn't an actual murder or death. Like, maybe they were stumbling/falling/making out or even someone else walks with them at some point or perhaps even someone walks by the camera after they did in the same direction. I still think whatever happened likely happened either in CR/MB/JR's building or something in that direction toward the residential area where camera coverage drops drastically.

 

[amoncrieff]

My jaw is on the floor -- "Landfill not yet searched in Spierer case"

In the six-week-long investigation into the disappearance of Indiana University student Lauren Spierer, Bloomington police have not searched the landfill just south of Terre Haute where Bloomington’s city trash is hauled. . . .

Qualters noted Bloomington police have not searched a landfill in his 24 years with the department. “From my limited knowledge, it seems to be a very labor-intensive process and that would seem to translate to a potentially costly endeavor,” he stated by email. "

Someone needs to inform Capt. Qualters that candor is not a synonym for stupor. Or [torpor].

Yes, it's "costly." But cities large and small routinely make the effort, recognizing the larger, more costly moral hazard of civic indifference, i.e., "Dear Perps, We don't search landfills."

Makes me wonder how BPD's unsolved rate for missing persons compares to other similarly-sized municipalities & PDs.

It also begs the question: What landfill was BPD Lt. Bill Parker referring to when he "confirmed that dumpsters and landfills have been searched" in a story published by The Daily Greenburgh (LS' hometown) on June 10.

"We're not losing hope," said Bloomington Police Lieutenant Bill Parker at Friday's press conference. He stated that they will remain focused on finding her alive.

Police are expanding the search for Spierer, as well as retracing their steps. Parker confirmed that dumpsters and landfills have been searched and encouraged stores in Spierer's path last Friday morning to give their security tapes to police for analysis.

 

[Gabby66]

Oh and searching the landfill-most landfills I know are absolutely huge and very dangerous. I know that doesn't excuse it, but how DO people effectively search for a needle in a haystack-a dangerous haystack that normal people cannot just enter? Cranes, yes, but if she was wrapped up well would those even be effective?

(snipped) I meant to comment on this part of your post earlier, then forgot. This is just my opinion, but I'd assume that a crane could pick up a "load" of garbage, and move it to a clearing, then cadaver dogs could "investigate" each load. This of course would require the means to have a lot available open land....1. remove pile from landfill. 2. search that pile. 3. Remove that pile to a third location to "store" it until they can dump it back into the landfill.

 

[imkeylime]

There is a transfer station here south of town that all trash (city, county, private) is taken to prior to going to the landfill about an hour away. Perhaps that area was searched since it is the intermediate step? The article does not state that the transfer station was not searched -- just not the landfill.

You make a good point. I'd like to think that the transfer station was checked, since it would be a checkpoint of sorts. But it also raises a question for me. In my town, you can take extra bags of trash or large items that a truck can't pick up to the transfer station. I wonder if that's an option in the Bloomington area? If so, a body could be hidden inside something and left there vs. being put in a dumpster. That would suggest transportation, of course, and usually there are people staffing the transfer station (in the daytime, at least). It would seem too obvious, but OTOH, not predictable.

 

[Darcyline]

Thank you for answering! I always imagined landfills to be like...a massive sea of trash. Like this
http://ecosmartwindshieldrepair.com/images/landfill_1_.jpg

X10. Are most like that? I am just imagining it would take a year to do one crane-load at a time.

 

[British]

Oh yeah I definitely don't think the actual murder/death/abduction happened in that alley and just happened to be missed by cameras. I actually pretty much believe the timeline given until they reach CR's-I still think Lauren was alive at that point.
The activity has haunted me from the moment they said it, but I sort of assume maybe it gives some clues, but isn't an actual murder or death. Like, maybe they were stumbling/falling/making out or even someone else walks with them at some point or perhaps even someone walks by the camera after they did in the same direction. I still think whatever happened likely happened either in CR/MB/JR's building or something in that direction toward the residential area where camera coverage drops drastically.

Good points. Based on what we know, there are 3 apparent major red flags in the story that may eventually help solve the mystery of what happened to LS:

1. The reported "activity" by police in that alley and the fact that her keys were found there. That suggests either a physical struggle or drug use.

2. The fact that one of the POIs claims "memory loss" of what happened after a certain time that night.

3. The fact that the last person to see her only gave (apparently written) statements to the police, hired a high-level criminal lawyer and only took a private polygraph. This does not appear like the behavior of someone who has told police everything he knew.

One of these 3 points may end up being the key to solving the mystery. My guess is that the police know much more than they disclose in public, but in the absence of a body they dont have enough evidence to charge anyone with murder or anything else at this point.

 

[Gabby66]

Thank you for answering! I always imagined landfills to be like...a massive sea of trash. Like this
http://ecosmartwindshieldrepair.com/images/landfill_1_.jpg

X10. Are most like that? I am just imagining it would take a year to do one crane-load at a time.

Yes, I think most are very much like that. I wasn't expecting that there'd just be one crane, but yes, regardless, it would take a LONG while. Not easy, and very tedious, but I just think they should at least make the attempt. Of course, now it would be VERY difficult. My comments were based on doing this over a month ago, when they wouldn't have had to fish through as much.

 

[OldSteve]

Snipped to save space, regarding (from a few posts up):

I've read comments from people feeling that the guys would have known about the cameras. I'm curious how many here feel that's true. I guess that I'm TOTALLY oblivious to cameras anywhere and i .....................

Interesting reading- it's been mentioned (what hasn't been mentioned at this point!) and I still wonder about, if something happened by accident to LS, why the need to cart her away, to hide her.... if she OD'ed seek medical help... with all the apparent availability to lawyers all around her have, it would be difficult to prove anyone responsible, no? So IMO the act of hiding/disposing her says there's more to what happened than her simply succumbing to a medical/od event. The disposing indicates some sort of direct contact, something inflicted upon her that someone(s) did not her report.

 

[Gabby66]

Snipped to save space, regarding (from a few posts up):

Interesting reading- it's been mentioned (what hasn't been mentioned at this point!) and I still wonder about, if something happened by accident to LS, why the need to cart her away, to hide her.... if she OD'ed seek medical help... with all the apparent availability to lawyers all around her have, it would be difficult to prove anyone responsible, no? So IMO the act of hiding/disposing her says there's more to what happened than her simply succumbing to a medical/od event. The disposing indicates some sort of direct contact, something inflicted upon her that someone(s) did not her report.

IMO while yes, these kids have lawyers, I doubt they've experienced anything to this gravity before, so they'd likely not think ahead to realize that a Prosecutor may not be able to prove anything. I think more likely, they'd be REALLY scared and wanting to remove all evidence b/c if she OD'd, my guess is that several of them feel responsible.

 

[Gabby66]

Speculation about fight:

There are rumors that LS was kicked out of Sports b/c she was talking loud and bragging about taking Xanex and being drunk. I'm beginning to wonder if the reason for the fight at Smallwood may be because of that. It sure seems like perfect timing b/c it appears that the guys were waiting for them there. I am one to think that there are very few coincidences in life. The good ones are usually God moments, while the bad ones can often be explained if you think hard enough. Yes, sometimes we just downright have bad luck and are in the wrong place at the wrong time - but what are the odds that would happen to LS so many times in one night? (she loses her belongings, she leaves and her "friend" is punched in the face at the next location, she leaves and eventually dies or is abducted, which just happens to occur in a town with cameras ALL over and not one sees this event, and now she's missing). Those have REALLY big odds against any one of them happening to the same person, let alone all in one night. I just don't buy that they're all coincidental acts. Therefore, I think the way to solve this crime, is by determining which ones weren't coincidences.

I'm kinda thinking that those boys knew they were coming to Smallwood (at that time), since none of them appear to live there. They were waiting. If this fight had nothing to do with LS, why wouldn't they be waiting at 5 North? If they knew he was with LS, and waiting for them to come home, how would they have known they were coming back at that time? Surely, they weren't just loitering the halls, waiting for hours. Therefore, I'm wondering if they (or some of them) weren't in Sports. Perhaps they sold something to CR, who gave it to LS. Perhaps either they, or someone who called them, overheard her bragging. Heck, maybe she was even openly telling people where it came from. Maybe that's the reason they went after CR - to remind him of how "stupid" he was for giving pint-sized girls things that they shouldn't have.

I've even wondered if perhaps the fight started at Sports (inside or outside) or at least arguing, and CR/LS left quickly to get away, thinking that SW would be their quickest stop (not knowing that the boys would run there too). It could be that a group was waiting at SW and another near 5 North (alley).

 

[Jupiter812]

Speculation about fight:

There are rumors that LS was kicked out of Sports b/c she was talking loud and bragging about taking Xanex and being drunk. I'm beginning to wonder if the reason for the fight at Smallwood may be because of that. It sure seems like perfect timing b/c it appears that the guys were waiting for them there. I am one to think that there are very few coincidences in life. The good ones are usually God moments, while the bad ones can often be explained if you think hard enough. Yes, sometimes we just downright have bad luck and are in the wrong place at the wrong time - but what are the odds that would happen to LS so many times in one night? (she loses her belongings, she leaves and her "friend" is punched in the face at the next location, she leaves and eventually dies or is abducted, which just happens to occur in a town with cameras ALL over and not one sees this event, and now she's missing). Those have REALLY big odds against any one of them happening to the same person, let alone all in one night. I just don't buy that they're all coincidental acts. Therefore, I think the way to solve this crime, is by determining which ones weren't coincidences.

I'm kinda thinking that those boys knew they were coming to Smallwood (at that time), since none of them appear to live there. They were waiting. If this fight had nothing to do with LS, why wouldn't they be waiting at 5 North? If they knew he was with LS, and waiting for them to come home, how would they have known they were coming back at that time? Surely, they weren't just loitering the halls, waiting for hours. Therefore, I'm wondering if they (or some of them) weren't in Sports. Perhaps they sold something to CR, who gave it to LS. Perhaps either they, or someone who called them, overheard her bragging. Heck, maybe she was even openly telling people where it came from. Maybe that's the reason they went after CR - to remind him of how "stupid" he was for giving pint-sized girls things that they shouldn't have.

I've even wondered if perhaps the fight started at Sports (inside or outside) or at least arguing, and CR/LS left quickly to get away, thinking that SW would be their quickest stop (not knowing that the boys would run there too). It could be that a group was waiting at SW and another near 5 North (alley).

I've been wondering the same thing about someone (a friend or even a stake-out person) was at Sports then called ZO. Maybe this someone even confronted CR and LS at Sports and they left quickly which is why she left her items.

 

[Jupiter812]

It's very, very easy to leave 5 North in a vehicle and not be picked up by security cameras anywhere when headed west. This is the best route to go anyway because it's away from the center of town. Easy to hop on State Road 37 and head north or south or just drive out into the boonies.

I think any one or two of the POIs not to mention the out-of-town visitor would be more likely to transport and dump the body than do the dumpster. It seems prudent to rid oneself of the body as soon as possible and as far away as possible. The possibilities out in the woods or rural area are endless whereas there are only so many dumpsters and these dumpsters get handled by people within days thus closing in on the time she would be found.

Are these guys that smart? Some of them are I believe. You don't get into Kelley School of Business with mediocre grades.

 

[Gabby66]

Yes, this would explain a lot of things. If she were asked to leave, I can't imagine they'd not either let her go back to get her phone, nor especially her shoes, or that an employee wouldn't at least grab it for her and bring it outside. I think that's a liability issue to toss out a drunk girl with no shoes. I also don't think she was drunk/high enough to have forgotten these things. My reasons for that are:

1. If she was reportedly "bragging" about the drugs and alcohol, then she was alert enough to remember having done those things. I doubt someone who can remember the names of drugs taken, would not realize she's not wearing any shoes, nor walk out without her cell phone, which is today, a college kids' "lifeline".

2. She was apparently "OK" enough to walk barefoot to Smallwood, then have the mindset to go after CR after he was punched, and make it clear down an alley - still barefoot. If one can do that, I can't imagine she would not be able to remember her phone/shoes.

Therefore, I think there's more to the story of being kicked out of the bar. I'm still shocked that there aren't more rumors about why this happened. Notice that the two things that there are really few rumors about are the exit from the bar, and the fight. I kinda think that LE knows more about these two events and have really put the kabosh on anyone talking. Sports will most certainly want to cooperate in any way they can b/c they are already in hot water. Having said that, the owner can threaten kids' jobs and such, but you'd think that ONE of them would have told his roommate something, who would have told his girlfriend, who would have told her room mate.......I also wonder about SW. So there wasn't one person in that building who didn't overhear what they were yelling about and tell someone else? I don't buy that. That is why I think there wasn't much yelling or really anything said at SW. I think they showed up, and he was punched very quickly. I can't remember the timing but he was in/out of that building in like 5 minutes, right? Again, this REALLY points to the altercation having started somewhere else (Sports??) I mean, if something happened days ago, they had many chances to punch him, I'd imagine, before 2:30 that morning. I think the fight and Sports and probably drugs are connected.

Oh, and I don't think LS was as "bad off" as people imagine. I think she may have been so eventually, but at Sports, I think that if she was "bragging" (being loud), it was probably just that - bragging. Sometimes kids tend to do that to sound "cool". It could have been her way to feel/seem cool in front of CR, especially if she liked him, so that he'd be more interested in she'd seem to fit in with his crowd. I just don't think she was REALLY that drunk/high there, for the reasons stated above. Additionally, MB claims that she wanted to "party". If she was really already that bad off, I doubt she'd be of the frame of mind to want more. That doesn't mean it all didn't hit her later, but I just am not positive about the OD theory. I'm leaning more towards an accident of some type and I'm really strong on the "she was accidentally punched during a fight" theory. This would explain why both sides would want to remain quiet, and maybe even work together

 

[Gabby66]

It's very, very easy to leave 5 North in a vehicle and not be picked up by security cameras anywhere when headed west. This is the best route to go anyway because it's away from the center of town. Easy to hop on State Road 37 and head north or south or just drive out into the boonies.

I think any one or two of the POIs not to mention the out-of-town visitor would be more likely to transport and dump the body than do the dumpster. It seems prudent to rid oneself of the body as soon as possible and as far away as possible. The possibilities out in the woods or rural area are endless whereas there are only so many dumpsters and these dumpsters get handled by people within days thus closing in on the time she would be found.

Are these guys that smart? Some of them are I believe. You don't get into Kelley School of Business with mediocre grades.

Thanks. And going back to my theory that how would they possibly know where all the cameras are, this could be a good explanation. If this would be a natural route to take, to leave town, then it could have been completely natural for them to have avoided cameras, and not trying to do so on purpose. One could be completely oblivious to the cameras and still take this route, it sounds. This makes sense to me.

I agree with you about the dumpsters. I think that from watching TV, there are to many bodies discovered in them. However, not to sound sassy, but thank to LE's statement that they don't check landfills, probably many more bodies will be deposited there in this way in the future. I also am not keen on the idea that she was just dumped in the woods somewhere. I think that no matter how deep you go, there's risk of discovery. Shallow graves are noticed and hunters eventually find things. I'm going with a lake, if she was disposed of. She was very lightweight and I think it would be fairly easy to do, plus the chances of finding her I believe would be much less. There's no "surface" evidence.

 

[Dogface]

(snipped) I meant to comment on this part of your post earlier, then forgot. This is just my opinion, but I'd assume that a crane could pick up a "load" of garbage, and move it to a clearing, then cadaver dogs could "investigate" each load. This of course would require the means to have a lot available open land....1. remove pile from landfill. 2. search that pile. 3. Remove that pile to a third location to "store" it until they can dump it back into the landfill.

Hopefully this landfill keeps a good record book of which trucks dump where and when, because, as I understand, most landfills have a distinct pattern or rotation they stick to when bringing in waste to keep it evenly distributed. If this is the case, at least they might have a good starting point on where to start looking.