IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[OldSteve]

Many of you (shout out to 'OldSteve' too) have been collaborating and posting here regularly for the past year. Thank you for sharing your time and energy, it's very admirable. I have been following developments in the Mickey Shunick disappearance over the past week, which caused me to revisit some questions regarding LS' case. I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts and/or insight to a few questions that I can't seem to resolve:

- CR has appeared to be called out repeatedly. Even if CR hasn't been truthful about his memory loss, JR admits to seeing LS leave his place after her visit to CR's apt. Wouldn't that let CR off the hook and put all the focus on JR?
- Wasn't CR's roommate, MB working on several assignments and seemingly sober that night? If so, wouldn't his statement that he put CR to bed and LS went to JR's be even more credible?
- I can accept that the young men with her lawyer'd up, but why wouldn't JR react the way Mickey's friend BW did (allowing LE to search his laptop, house, cell phone, car &#8230? In many situations, doesn't a lawyer allow or encourage a client to share information and details assuming they were completely innocent (of illegal activity)?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Wow! Excellent point BBM - and Mickey's friend BW was put through the ringer...

I even questioned early on in BW's first interview in which I mentioned that he had no tears in his eyes. I was wrong and the more I learn of him the more I see him as a someone who cares for Mickey, and has no fear of LE because he knows he is totally innocent.

I think when you really care about someone, getting legal help doesn't enter into you mind. Events unfold so fast, and you are too caught up in trying to help.

 

[SeaEclipse]

New article in Journal news.Gives some new info and a different perspective on what 3A.M. witness saw.http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

WOW. This is a whole bunch of new (or, at least, now definitive and previously just speculated on) info. I'm going to finish watching before drawing any new firm conclusions, but just the first 1/2 of the video (the one on the timeline/path page) makes it VERY clear why the Spierers are sure that Lauren would now be alive if she had never met CR... Regardless of whether he was directly responsible for her death/hiding her body.

 

[akh]

The interview with Bo Dietl is interesting in an of itself. He apparently hasn't cleared the boyfriend and stated that he'd gave conflicting statements. But Bo goes on to say he is still open to the possibility of a random abduction.

The reporter's version of events in the other video is a bit confusing. I might need to watch that again. It is way more specific than what we've heard before with many missing details. But I'm not sure where those details necessarily came from. 3/4 of the way thru and you think you know exactly what must've happened and think he's going to implicate CR and the 5 North bunch as at least conspirators, but then the narrative continues and has specific details about her time at 5 North (including saying MB walked her to JR's apartment because JR knew her much better than MB and he was making her JR's problem).

IOW, unless I missed something, it's being stated on the video as there's no/little question she left JR's but more as to there's a question about them (or some of them) knowing what might've transpired afterwards. Surely, I missed something because the whole video seemed to be setting up the implication that she never left there and then it went past that point and never said or implied "Here's where the story gets murky".

Interesting info in any case.

 

[AbbeyR]

"She doesn't deserve this ending to her story" - CS



...

SC (reporter): Are you satisfied that [JR, CR, MB and a couple of other people that were with her last] have shared everything that they know and have nothing that they are holding back?

CS: No, I'm not satisfied. I'm not satisfied that they've shared everything that they know.

SC: Why is that?

CS: I... I feel that if they really wanted to help us, they would go to the BPD and they would be willing to take the law enforcement administered polygraph. And they are not willing to do that.

SC: Why do you think they have been reluctant?

CS: I'm not sure, I'd like to ask them that question.

Edited to add: I wish they would have clarified who exactly was with her last to clear up the mystery of the out-of- town guest.

 

[AbbeyR]

Um, JW may not have even been home that night? conflicting statements?

oy.

* BD - they have evidence they are not willing to talk about. But, all theories are still on the table.
- Because none of the boys will take polygraphs, they can't eliminate anyone. [grrr]

(ETA: Sorry, I've been posting as I go along. This is the Bo Dietl interview)

 

[akh]

CS: I... I feel that if they really wanted to help us, they would go to the BPD and they would be willing to take the law enforcement administered polygraph. And they are not willing to do that.

SC: Why do you think they have been reluctant?

CS: I'm not sure, I'd like to ask them that question.

This is the type of thing that while the parents feel is them not cooperating it's really just them following the advice of their lawyers. There's absolutely nothing to be gained by them taking the LD. At best nothing comes of it, at worst they wrongly implicate themselves and make themselves more of a target. There would be no new revelations coming from it unless one of them would be tricked into a confession. And of course that is the least likely outcome.

I feel sorry for the parents but cooperation doesn't mean that the PsOI are at their beck and call 24/7 and that they ignore their attorneys.

Clearly there's been some level of cooperation or else there wouldn't be the details in the reporter's story that we just heard.

 

[AbbeyR]

This is the type of thing that while the parents feel is them not cooperating it's really just them following the advice of their lawyers.

It's both.

As others have mentioned - look at the friend in the Mickey Shulick case. I have nothing against hiring lawyers, but you can still cooperate with an investigation while doing so. The POI clearly have not.

There's absolutely nothing to be gained by them taking the LD. At best nothing comes of it, at worst they wrongly implicate themselves and make themselves more of a target. There would be no new revelations coming from it unless one of them would be tricked into a confession. And of course that is the least likely outcome.

No, there's a lot to be gained from it - If they are innocent, they could eliminate themselves and LE would be able to have a better idea of where to look next. If they are not, then yes, they may implicate themselves.

I feel sorry for the parents but cooperation doesn't mean that the PsOI are at their beck and call 24/7 and that they ignore their attorneys.

They want them to take an LE administered polygraph, not to be at their beck and call 24/7!!!

Gah. I don't really care about the POI and what reasons they may have for covering their own a$$es. Lauren is the victim here.

 

[SeaEclipse]

OK, so the videos were really interesting. Most interesting things:

- CR & LS don't seem to have been romantic at all and, in particular, CR doesn't seem to be trying to come on to LS... They are actually looking for *more* people to party with on their way back to CR's... which wouldn't really be consistent with CR trying to get LS alone (especially since it seems that from her general state of inebriation, he could direct them wherever he wanted to go.)

- There is actually some evidence to support CR's claim of amnesia. He really was punched in the jaw and may have hit his head on a tile floor per the Bo Dietl interview. Also, as soon as he got home he vomited, which is completely consistant with a concussion... or extreme drunkeness. I'm not saying CR is telling the truth... but I think there is reason to think that he could be.

- Video confirms that really only JR could have covered up LS' accidental death on his own... If CR was involved then MB and JR were too; if MB was involved, then JR was too. (The path of LS&CR to CR&MB's house is clear/documented; MB confirms they arrived and he put CR to bed; JR confirms that MB brought LS to his house (and the reasoning for that actually makes sense to me).)

- JR seems the *least* likely to cover up LS' death / not call an ambulance if it was an accident. He's known her for awhile, she did most of her drinking/etc when he wasn't even there (so it seems unlikely he'd worry about being held primarily responsible), etc. However, I think it's even more unlikely that these 3 boys are involved in a conspiracy; the least responsible -- and, actually, MB seems more or less innocent based on all information we have -- would have cracked by now. Even the private investigator seems to think it's unlikely that the 3 boys wouldn't have called an ambulance for an accidental death.

- Only way CR could be directly responsible (i.e., in more than just a moral sense) is if all 3 boys are covering it up or if he left his apartment shortly post-being put to bed/vomiting and (1) no one noticed/saw and (2) randomly managed to catch up with LS leaving JR's before she got to Smallwood. TBH this seems incredibly unlikely to me... especially given his apparently quite inebriated state.

- MB could technically be directly responsible (w/o a cover-up from the others) if he watched LS leave JRs and then ran after her after JR stopped watching her leave, but reached her before she reached Smallwood. This strikes me as really unlikely as (1) the timing is super tight and (2) more importantly, he didn't have to bring LS to JR's in the first place and wouldn't have if he really intended to do something to her.

- JR could be directly responsible. We only have his word that LS left his place. Motive is unclear though. I've already explained why I think he would have called an ambulance if she died accidentally... so unless we really think he happens to be an opportunistic sex predator? Honestly, it just seems really unlikely to me, but it is -- admittedly -- possible (and more possible than most other options). However, if he did do it... Where's Lauren (see below)?

- Wildcard #1: We have heard rumors of a friend staying with JR, but he's not mentioned AT ALL in the interviews... even though he would be. Either the friend rumor was false OR the Spierers/Bo Dietl are concealling this info (why would they be?) OR the Spierers don't know about the info (seems really unlikely). I'm inclined to think that there was no friend there that night.

- Wildcard #2: No discussion in the video of whether any of the POIs have vehicles. If they don't, then if they're involved, Lauren has to be really nearby... or they had to manage to successfully borrow/steal a car without the owner's knowledge before or after the fact. (I just don't believe that if they borrowed a car that night, the innocent owner wouldn't have turned them in for doing so at this point.) If any of them had vehicles, wouldn't we have heard about cadaver dogs searching them by now? It all just seems so unlikely.

- Wildcard #3: 2 phone calls at 4:15. One to DR (who admitted it and spoke about it immediately)... Who is the other one to and why don't they say in the video (or even say it's to a friend who's been completely ruled out)? Anyway, we now know that neither were answered. I think it's totally possible that Lauren really did make those calls herself... It actually makes sense if she was trying to track down her phone and/or get into Smallwood without keys.

- New interesting info: JW remains a suspect in the eyes of Bo Dietl. Sounds like he lied about stuff earlier in the evening and lawyered up (though Bo doesn't give any more reason for suspecting him than that). We talked about whether Lauren would head to his house that night when she realized she didn't have phone or keys to Smallwood... Maybe she would have? I wish there was more info one whether that was a possibility. How far away was his house? Are there cameras en route? Is it possible that JW went looking for her (after hearing about the earlier events from ZO, perhaps) and randomly met up with her during her trip home? To me, it seems unlikely, but no more unlikely than a 3 boy cover up, no one calling an ambulance if she just ODed or JR randomly being a opportunistic sex predator and vanishing her body...

- Other interesting info: Lauren was really, really out of it: left her phone/shoes at Kilroy's, appeared drunk enough at Smallwood that ZO worried about CR's motives, stumbled out of the elevator, hit her head several times en route home (now we know what the witness actually saw), had to be carried by DR (now we know what the alleyway video was likely of -- them sitting/knocking on the girls' door), dropped all her things, etc. I think she was actually way more out of it than I initially realized/the early reports made it sound. It strikes me as totally possible -- that is, unlikely but no more unlikely than the other possibilities -- that someone saw her somewhere between the corner and home basically passed out and grabbed her or that she somehow walked the wrong way and fell in a construction site/ran into a bad guy/got hit by a driver who panicked/etc.

ETA: In a wierd way, the new info makes CR, MB and JR (but particularly CR) seem even more despicable to me... but slightly less likely guilty.

ETA(2): I actually completely understand why they wouldn't take LE-administered polygraphs even if innocent. We don't know if the police have offered immunity deals and, despite what Bo Dietl claims, I think their parents would absolutely tell them not to admit drug use otherwise (particularly if they had any past record). They obviously have given quite a bit of info to LE/the Spierers and we know that at least some of them (including JR who, if innocent, basically clears the other 2 boys) took private polys... which is *exactly* what a defense lawyer would suggest as a compromise solution to a client who did illegal stuff but wanted to help. If the place that did the poly was reputable (and we haven't heard that it wasn't, which -- honestly -- suggests that it was), then I think that poly is pretty useful as long as it asks the most important questions (do you know how LS died/where her body is).

 

[AbbeyR]

Good post, SE.

- Other interesting info: Lauren was really, really out of it: left her phone/shoes at Kilroy's, appeared drunk enough at Smallwood that ZO worried about CR's motives, stumbled out of the elevator, hit her head several times en route home (now we know what the witness actually saw), had to be carried by DR (now we know what the alleyway video was likely of -- them sitting/knocking on the girls' door), dropped all her things, etc. I think she was actually way more out of it than I initially realized/the early reports made it sound. <snipped>

I think this is one of the most important pieces of info to remember when considering different possibilities. She couldn't even get to CR's by herself. What are the odds she walked to the corner at all, let alone "without stumbling".

The new JW. info really bugs me though, for several reasons, and I wish we knew who the second phone call was to.

Hmmm. I need to think about all of this and stop posting without a filter.

 

[akh]

No, there's a lot to be gained from it - If they are innocent, they could eliminate themselves and LE would be able to have a better idea of where to look next. If they are not, then yes, they may implicate themselves.

A LD will never eliminate them. It's meaningless. There's a reason they are inadmissible in court. They are subjective as far as P/F and even if they fail it doesn't automatically mean they are guilty. And if they pass it doesn't mean they are innocent.

I have no idea about the other case you mention but I doubt you'll find too many attorneys that would allow their clients to submit to a LE LD test in circumstances such as these. Not without some control over the proceedings anyway.

Gah. I don't really care about the POI and what reasons they may have for covering their own a$$es. Lauren is the victim here.

And if you put someone wrongly thru the wringer, let alone convict the wrong person, you have now added to the victims in the case.

 

[AbbeyR]

A LD will never eliminate them. It's meaningless. There's a reason they are inadmissible in court. They are subjective as far as P/F and even if they fail it doesn't automatically mean they are guilty. And if they pass it doesn't mean they are innocent.

I know that, but it is obviously not meaningless in terms of the investigation. Showing cooperation, and having nothing to hide, would allow LE to channel their resources elsewhere. BD flat out says that because none of these guys fully cooperated, they can't eliminate them. There's no way every single one of the POI's is involved in Lauren's disappearance, but even the ones who may be innocent have hindered the investigation by not cooperating.

We have discussed a million reasons why they might do this, and I understand all of those hypothetical reasons. Yes, they might be covering for drugs, or fearing a civil suit, etc. Again though, I don't really care what their problems are. I still think it's BS, given that Lauren was supposedly their friend and she is still missing.

I'm not sure how we got to wrongful conviction from taking a polygraph...

ETA: I respect your opinion though, akh, and always appreciate your posts. I'm going to take a break now because that video made me angry, and it's not at any of you. -- Xo Abbey

 

[Jupiter812]

Definitely have to take my heart pills!

The whole lot of them: Even bigger liars than before.

Now I have to go hyperventilate...

 

[akh]

I know that, but it is obviously not meaningless in terms of the investigation. Showing cooperation, and having nothing to hide, would allow LE to channel their resources elsewhere. BD flat out says that because none of these guys fully cooperated, they can't eliminate them. There's no way every single one of the POI's is involved in Lauren's disappearance, but even the ones who may be innocent have hindered the investigation by not cooperating.

I need to listen to Bo again. He made a big deal out of not getting to talk to JW earlier when things were still unfolding. I'm not sure how much he really talked about people not cooperating. I came away on first listen more hearing him say there was conflicting info, but I don't recall him hammering the idea there was a lack of cooperation.

The parents are the ones where the talk of a lack of cooperation seems to stem from.

I still think it's BS, given that Lauren was supposedly their friend and she is still missing.

I'm not sure how we got to wrongful conviction from taking a polygraph...

There's obviously been some degree of cooperation because of the amount of detail we learned in the videos. I suspect the parents will never feel there's enough cooperation until someone they suspect tells them what they want to hear. But it's always possible the parents' chief suspects are actually innocent and have told them everything they have to tell.

We get from a polygraph to wrongful conviction by having the 5 North trio be the easiest to suspect because they were last known with her. A subjective fail on a poly, and maybe something taken out of context starts leading to a circumstantial case. Add in some level of distrust of them and some moral issues from the night, and then factor in a jury not liking them and wanting the parents to have justice.... And you can get a wrongful conviction fairly easily in a case like this.

ETA: I respect your opinion though, akh, and always appreciate your posts. I'm going to take a break now because that video made me angry, and it's not at any of you. -- Xo Abbey

No problem Abbey. I just try and step back and separate the emotion from things.

 

[akh]

- New interesting info: JW remains a suspect in the eyes of Bo Dietl. Sounds like he lied about stuff earlier in the evening and lawyered up (though Bo doesn't give any more reason for suspecting him than that). We talked about whether Lauren would head to his house that night when she realized she didn't have phone or keys to Smallwood... Maybe she would have? I wish there was more info one whether that was a possibility. How far away was his house? Are there cameras en route? Is it possible that JW went looking for her (after hearing about the earlier events from ZO, perhaps) and randomly met up with her during her trip home? To me, it seems unlikely, but no more unlikely than a 3 boy cover up, no one calling an ambulance if she just ODed or JR randomly being a opportunistic sex predator and vanishing her body...

I've always thought the lack of speculation about JW was not good from a investigative POV. Random abductions are rare. So if you change a variable and say the 5 north bunch are not involved in her disappearance, and random abduction is statistically low, then JW probably has the most motive of anyone that's been mentioned in public. From the outside looking in he'd clearly have a jealously motive that could be ascribed to him.

There's the possibility she went to his place after leaving 5 north. But her reported condition makes that questionable. Then again, showing up on his doorstep at that time of morning in that condition could've triggered an argument/jealousy itself.

But then there's the other possibility. What if he was possessive... paranoid... angry...? Allegedly he'd expected to hear from her and didn't. He could've been hiding out and spying on her (especially if he found out from Smallwood people she'd left with CR after the altercation) with the intention of catching her in a lie the next morning when he asked her about her night (because he'd be watching for her to know when/if she left 5 North). But then she staggers out... and he confronts her... and snaps.

There's just really been nothing that I've heard that would alibi him from the point of something like that being possible.

Of course he could've been home in bed too. But it takes more speculation to ascribe a motive to the 5 north trio than it does to ascribe a motive to JW.

 

[jjenny]

If she was constantly falling down on her way to CR's, MB's and JR's, and CR had to carry her part of the way, how did she even manage to leave JR's on her own? Sounds like she was completely out of it. Of course if she ever did manage to leave, she would be very easy to pick up for anyone.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

As the one year anniversary of her disappearance nears, I am really surprised that NO ONE has talked. I have followed this case from the beginning and can't imagine the feelings of her parents. It's all just one big circle that leads to nowhere. I am praying that someday soon, her family gets closure.

 

[midwestgirl]

- Wildcard #3: 2 phone calls at 4:15. One to DR (who admitted it and spoke about it immediately)... Who is the other one to and why don't they say in the video (or even say it's to a friend who's been completely ruled out)? Anyway, we now know that neither were answered. I think it's totally possible that Lauren really did make those calls herself... It actually makes sense if she was trying to track down her phone and/or get into Smallwood without keys.

Obviously if it was her, she didn't make it from her own phone, the phone was at still at the bar the next day. So she would have had to use someone else's phone (a stranger's?)

 

[AbbeyR]

I need to listen to Bo again. He made a big deal out of not getting to talk to JW earlier when things were still unfolding. I'm not sure how much he really talked about people not cooperating. I came away on first listen more hearing him say there was conflicting info, but I don't recall him hammering the idea there was a lack of cooperation.

From the interview with Bo Dietl:

BD: Wouldn't it be just great if we had full cooperation from all the boys. Full cooperation. No lawyers, full cooperation, take polygraphs everyone, and eliminate them. We don't have that. So I can't eliminate nobody.

***

So, what exactly have the POI done to cooperate? Taken a "private" polygraph? As we discussed in detail at the time, that means nothing since they have control over the questions and answers disclosed. So JR met with the Spierers, but gave them no new info. LE was clear that they did not cooperate and as recently as that time that the newspapers misreported that the Spierers had 'cleared' JW, LE made sure to let everyone know they had not cleared him, or any of the POI.

JMO.

 

[AbbeyR]

Obviously if it was her, she didn't make it from her own phone, the phone was at still at the bar the next day. So she would have had to use someone else's phone (a stranger's?)

The calls were made from JR's phone.

 

[bx2]

So, what exactly have the POI done to cooperate? Taken a "private" polygraph? As we discussed in detail at the time, that means nothing since they have control over the questions and answers disclosed. So JR met with the Spierers and responded to a few answers, but gave them no new info. LE was clear that they did not cooperate and as recently as that time that the newspapers misreported that the Spierers had 'cleared' JW, LE made sure to let everyone know they had not cleared him, or any of the POI.

JMO.

During the initial news conferences, LE reported full cooperation from POI (though later also said that they were still trying to track a few people down). There is stock video of MB and CR leaving the police station (w/ lawyers), but assurances were given then that they had been cooperative. We saw articles and video where dogs were brought in to both JR and JW's residences (AFAIK you need their consent to do so). If I remember correctly, we were given instances that a few had given DNA samples at the time and yes, a few provided private polygraphs. Receiving no cooperation, in my opinion, may be stemming more from the PI's (and thus the parents') point of view.