IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[Hillside]

Wait a second, I now recall that perhaps Chapman represented one or both DR / MB in prior drug/ alcohol offenses. Does this sound familiar to anyone else?

Only DR. MB had a different attorney. Check out http://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx. It's been covered before on WS, but DR had a warrant for his arrest issued on May 27th last year for failure to appear and he didn't post bond until June 5th.

 

[Ros]

The post by "anonymous" is either someone trying to start an urban legend or, much less likely, someone trying to throw off the search. The bypass road construction project on the east side of Bloomington would have been a much less risky place to dispose of a body (I feel sick just saying that) AND that project butted right up against the backyards of a bunch of fraternities. Wonder if one of them was Acacia.

Let's hope the dogs were sent to all the construction zones, buildings and roads alike, asap.

Acacia is/was on 3rd St, near Fess, and about across the street from Swain West and FiJi.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Sending good thoughts to Lauren's dad on Father's Day.

 

[Ros]

I'm actually a bit curious about "Teddy." I wonder if he was part of the group? AB mentions him in two tweets, i.e., giving him an Adderall and a flashlight and him being "lost" and in the hospital. Curious stuff ...

There was a rumor that Teddy was a construction worker who was a friend of ZO and AB. See comment on this page of TG's blog
http://tonygatto.com/2011/08/03/sea...two-weeks-after-lauren-spierer-disappearance/

I think there was some speculation about his last name on either PT or one of the defunct blogs; the speculation was based on the Facebook friends of ZO and AB. However, neither one currently has a FB friend specifically named Teddy.

 

[imkeylime]

There was a rumor that Teddy was a construction worker who was a friend of ZO and AB. See comment on this page of TG's blog
http://tonygatto.com/2011/08/03/sea...two-weeks-after-lauren-spierer-disappearance/

I think there was some speculation about his last name on either PT or one of the defunct blogs; the speculation was based on the Facebook friends of ZO and AB. However, neither one currently has a FB friend specifically named Teddy.

Thanks, Ros! The word "construction" gives me the creeps. There was so much in Bloomington ... and then there was the white truck that went nowhere. I can't help wondering if LS was stashed in the midst of a construction zone and moved elsewhere later, etc.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Kronopin doesn't seem that different from Xanax ... and yes, very similar side effects, particularly with alcohol.

It's true that they could both induce an amnesia effect though or end in death if abused. Klonopin seems to be a lot more risky where it actually could shut down brain activity (like breathing) even without alcohol. Xanax mixed with alcohol certainly could have an anesthetizing effect.
Perhaps a Pharmacist could comment on this?
From being around people who have taken either of these drugs, Klonopin seemed far more dangerous as a mix with alcohol or for someone without


epilepsy to take. I've seen people take xanax after having a glass of wine or two and just go to sleep and wake up normal. The 2 people I met over the years who took Klonopin would not touch anything else because it was so strong.
Taking that and drinking alcohol (even worse if adding other substances) would be like hooking up an IV of anesthetic without anyone around to turn it off. Slipping that to someone unknowingly is murder. I would not expect anyone with this group of relatively elite people to be dumb enough to do that. I think someone said DR and LS were snorting the Klonopin. How is it that DR is alive? How did they divide it up? Draw some lines and pass it back and forth? DR being the gentleman and letting LS have those last 3 big ones for herself? Who supplied it?(DR?) Where was it done?(JR'S?)
Then the possibility that she did the Klonopin with DR, AND Xanax with CR... a beer or two later and could anyone walk, assuming they avoided a coma?

A Coroner, Detectives, or FBI people would know if this were the combination, given her weight and seeing her head slamming, could plot a graph of the metabolism of these drugs and when the effects would peak.
For example my check on it shows that Xanax peaks within 1 to 2 hrs after taking it and maintains that level for about 5 hrs. But when mixing drugs that get metabolized through the liver, that effect could take longer to peak and last longer. Klonopin peaks in about 4 hrs. If she did only the Klonopin she would have been peaking at about 4am. If she did Xanax on top of the Klonopin just prior to going to Kilroys or at Kilroys it would hit her hard between 2:00 and 3:00am and lasted a few more hours. Add some alcohol to this which metabolizes at about 1 oz per hr. Her last drink being about 2:30 would be still metabolizing until about 3:30 at the earliest. However the combination of these things would slow the metabolism down, how much, I don't know. Also her size is a factor. If I put these 3 graphs on top of each other, She would be just as bad at 5:00am as she was at 3:00. And at 3:00am she was blacking out and slamming her head into cement. 4:00am to 4:15 am she would be at the peak for just about everything. If it could be verified that she took these 3 substances, there was no way she was passing the walk test at JR's.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I think even Aruba would have filed charges and looked further into him for that.
Is he above the law? Fishy. No battery charge?

Not only wasn't he held accountable for an unexplained and apparently unprovoked violent attack, but the media echoed LE's twist making it seem like ZO was some kind of white knight, while CR was totally demonized. That was truly bizarre.

 

[Igor]

First time poster here. I've been following this case since the beginning when I read it on PT. I don't mean to disrespect or offend anyone by this, its just what I think happened.

CR is trying to put the moves on LS and takes her back to his apartment. LS is fading so CR brings out some blow to perk her up so she doesn't fall asleep and ruin his plans. Something happens to LS (heart attack, coma, OD, etc) and CR panics. MB hears the commotion and comes down to find drugs laying around, CR a mess, and a girl who he barely knows ODing in his living room. MB wants nothing to do with this situation and asks CR if he got the coke from JR (likely knows hes a source). MB decides that this is JRs problem now.

I'm not saying JR is a dealer in the classic sense, but may be known for always having it and selling some to friends -- or maybe was a small time dealer to support his habit/be the cool kid with the supplies. My university was filled with JRs, and most of them assumed this role in some capacity.

So, CR and MB take LS over to JRs. LS is geting worse, or is already dead. Trying to figure out what to do, JR/CR/MB remembers that DR did drugs with her earlier in the night. JR calls DR to unload LS off on him. No answer. They start to panic, and JR calls his last resort -- his drug dealer. JR sends CR and MB home, not wanting them to be around when the dealer arrives. Drug dealer answers, picks up LS, and does something with her. Maybe JR goes with him, maybe he stays back and watches them drive off from his balcony.

My guess is that LE doesn't actually know who the 2nd call was placed to. ALL serious drug dealers use pre-paid, untraceable cell phones. JR can claim ignorance on who the number belongs to because it was LS that supposedly made the call.

Again, I mean no disrespect to LS or her family. I can't believe this is a random abduction. This is just the only scenario that makes sense to me where all of these boys are tied together in silence -- they're all part of the crime, and furthermore would have to deal with the repercussions of snitching on a cold-blooded criminal who just disposed of a young girl's body. MB is the key link here, because if he didn't play an active role in her disposal, he would talk. No one would stick up for their buddy in a situation like this if they weren't involved.

Large quantity drug distributors in college towns are no joke. They are serious people who make lots of money, don't **** around, and would not let a helpless dying girl or a couple rich dweebs get in the way of their business/freedom. The parents need to push on a civil suit so they can depose these *******s and find their daughter.

 

[imkeylime]

... Taking that and drinking alcohol (even worse if adding other substances) would be like hooking up an IV of anesthetic without anyone around to turn it off. Slipping that to someone unknowingly is murder. I would not expect anyone with this group of relatively elite people to be dumb enough to do that. I think someone said DR and LS were snorting the Klonopin. How is it that DR is alive? How did they divide it up? Draw some lines and pass it back and forth? DR being the gentleman and letting LS have those last 3 big ones for herself? Who supplied it?(DR?) Where was it done?(JR'S?) ...

Snipped by me. Thanks for all this info ... I find the peak time of Klonopin to be particularly interesting, given that she could have stopped partying but become more distressed. I found this on Klonopindosage.com re: snorting this drug: "One reason that has propelled Klonopin recreational use is because it is readily available. This is a prescription drug that can be very addictive if abused. Many youths are abusing this drug by snorting it."

If the drug could be traced, per your questions, someone would be in trouble. The only statement I question is about the elite not being dumb enough to do that. I'm not sure about that. My daughter tells horror stories about what kids at her HS will try (top HS in my state, FWIW). Kids smoke "synthetic marijuana" (spice, K2), for example, despite the warnings. Why? They want an easy high—and they don't think it can happen to them.

I also suspect that some elite kids have the resources to get what they want. That said, I agree with your "third party" comment. Regardless of what happened to LS, she has to be somewhere. The POIs' cars and clothes were surely checked. If they'd taken her somewhere or buried her somewhere, there should be evidence. I also wonder if the white truck could have been a decoy or something. There are too many weird coincidences here, IMO.

 

[Jacobite]

Klonopin is a drug that might be prescribed to a Long QT patient for seizures or to prevent panic attacks. Lauren may have had a prescription for that drug.

 

[Jacobite]

Not only wasn't he held accountable for an unexplained and apparently unprovoked violent attack, but the media echoed LE's twist making it seem like ZO was some kind of white knight, while CR was totally demonized. That was truly bizarre.

A very simple puzzle would be impossible to solve if everyone plays the fool and falls for the old switcheroo. Not sure this is the case, just very possible.

 

[OldSteve]

:welcome: Igor :welcome: to both this thread and to websleulths!

 

[VeryVeritas]

Snipped by me. Thanks for all this info ... I find the peak time of Klonopin to be particularly interesting, given that she could have stopped partying but become more distressed. I found this on Klonopindosage.com re: snorting this drug: "One reason that has propelled Klonopin recreational use is because it is readily available. This is a prescription drug that can be very addictive if abused. Many youths are abusing this drug by snorting it."

If the drug could be traced, per your questions, someone would be in trouble. The only statement I question is about the elite not being dumb enough to do that. I'm not sure about that. My daughter tells horror stories about what kids at her HS will try (top HS in my state, FWIW). Kids smoke "synthetic marijuana" (spice, K2), for example, despite the warnings. Why? They want an easy high—and they don't think it can happen to them.

I also suspect that some elite kids have the resources to get what they want. That said, I agree with your "third party" comment. Regardless of what happened to LS, she has to be somewhere. The POIs' cars and clothes were surely checked. If they'd taken her somewhere or buried her somewhere, there should be evidence. I also wonder if the white truck could have been a decoy or something. There are too many weird coincidences here, IMO.

Yes, some of these people are smart enough to think of stuff like that.

 

[VeryVeritas]

A very simple puzzle would be impossible to solve if everyone plays the fool and falls for the old switcheroo. Not sure this is the case, just very possible.

So much focus on the altercation at SW between CR and ZO, may have taken attention (and LE focus) in the wrong direction.

 

[VeryVeritas]

First time poster here. I've been following this case since the beginning when I read it on PT. I don't mean to disrespect or offend anyone by this, its just what I think happened.

CR is trying to put the moves on LS and takes her back to his apartment. LS is fading so CR brings out some blow to perk her up so she doesn't fall asleep and ruin his plans. Something happens to LS (heart attack, coma, OD, etc) and CR panics. MB hears the commotion and comes down to find drugs laying around, CR a mess, and a girl who he barely knows ODing in his living room. MB wants nothing to do with this situation and asks CR if he got the coke from JR (likely knows hes a source). MB decides that this is JRs problem now.

I'm not saying JR is a dealer in the classic sense, but may be known for always having it and selling some to friends -- or maybe was a small time dealer to support his habit/be the cool kid with the supplies. My university was filled with JRs, and most of them assumed this role in some capacity.

So, CR and MB take LS over to JRs. LS is geting worse, or is already dead. Trying to figure out what to do, JR/CR/MB remembers that DR did drugs with her earlier in the night. JR calls DR to unload LS off on him. No answer. They start to panic, and JR calls his last resort -- his drug dealer. JR sends CR and MB home, not wanting them to be around when the dealer arrives. Drug dealer answers, picks up LS, and does something with her. Maybe JR goes with him, maybe he stays back and watches them drive off from his balcony.

My guess is that LE doesn't actually know who the 2nd call was placed to. ALL serious drug dealers use pre-paid, untraceable cell phones. JR can claim ignorance on who the number belongs to because it was LS that supposedly made the call.

Again, I mean no disrespect to LS or her family. I can't believe this is a random abduction. This is just the only scenario that makes sense to me where all of these boys are tied together in silence -- they're all part of the crime, and furthermore would have to deal with the repercussions of snitching on a cold-blooded criminal who just disposed of a young girl's body. MB is the key link here, because if he didn't play an active role in her disposal, he would talk. No one would stick up for their buddy in a situation like this if they weren't involved.

Large quantity drug distributors in college towns are no joke. They are serious people who make lots of money, don't **** around, and would not let a helpless dying girl or a couple rich dweebs get in the way of their business/freedom. The parents need to push on a civil suit so they can depose these *******s and find their daughter.

We've poked at the angles and facts such that I agree this picture or some variation on it seems the most likely.

One flaw in the hasty calling sequence, could be if that 2nd number had ever been called from JR's phone(s) before. Also not sure if JR has more than one phone? Were the calls from a landline or a mobile? If that 2nd call went to a disposable phone would there not also have been a pattern of pings traceable for that phone?
And even if that phone were disposable, would there not be a record of calls that disposable phone made to others? The government surely can analyze that data. Did that phone go out out of service after that night?

Yes, MB is pivotal, and this 2nd call seems pivotal.

Something else comes to mind after the PI revelations a few weeks ago:
Wasn't it some of LS's female friends who started calling and looking for her first? I wondered where those young ladies fit into the events the night before, because they seemed to be looking for her right away the next morning. Do they live at SW or are they the ones living at 10th and College who did not answer the door at ~2:45 am? Possibly it was one or more of them peering out of a window who saw and heard LS keel over and crack her head? Was it then later over at 5N when CR had LS on his back? Witnesses saw that too.

If she died at 5N, it seems nearly impossible that CR/MB/JR could get her out of there and back fast enough and there had to be some clean up. So they would have had outside help. I agree that help most likely would have come from someone with the most to lose and a little more experience.
But that person would not have been entirely invisible. CR/MB probably know him, not necessarily friends. If CR/MB know who this person is... then others know. In the College / University or just friends in that age range drug distribution as you described it rings true. But for every JR, there was a more familiar circle around them, and then more transient people that would come and go. The familiar circle would have a good idea who the real supplier was. People close to JR should know. There are clues, because a supplier will have different behavior than those who party, but may hang out with them. It could also be looked at this way. Who appeared to be JR's 5 closest friends or frequent visitors? If it's not one of those 5, a really good chance they know who it is. So why not, right now, even anonymously come out and name this person? And it seems natural to assume it's someone connected to JR (doesn't visit anymore) and not MB

 

[Igor]

"One flaw in the hasty calling sequence, could be if that 2nd number had ever been called from JR's phone(s) before. Also not sure if JR has more than one phone? Were the calls from a landline or a mobile? If that 2nd call went to a disposable phone would there not also have been a pattern of pings traceable for that phone?
And even if that phone were disposable, would there not be a record of calls that disposable phone made to others? The government surely can analyze that data. Did that phone go out out of service after that night? "

I agree that if JR had called that number before, he would have a very hard time explaining himself. That said, there's two possibilities.

1. Highly unlikely (but still more plausible to me than a random abduction) - DD's will switch out disposable phones pretty regularly to ditch their tracks. It's a long shot, but maybe the DD did this after the last time JR called him, making this the first time the new number was called from JR's phone.

2. More likely - JR has called that number before. But, I'm pretty sure for LE to prove that, they would have to subpoena his phone records or access them with consent. If they did either, I'm unaware.

--------

"If she died at 5N, it seems nearly impossible that CR/MB/JR could get her out of there and back fast enough and there had to be some clean up. So they would have had outside help. I agree that help most likely would have come from someone with the most to lose and a little more experience.
But that person would not have been entirely invisible. CR/MB probably know him, not necessarily friends. If CR/MB know who this person is... then others know. In the College / University or just friends in that age range drug distribution as you described it rings true. But for every JR, there was a more familiar circle around them, and then more transient people that would come and go. The familiar circle would have a good idea who the real supplier was. People close to JR should know. There are clues, because a supplier will have different behavior than those who party, but may hang out with them. It could also be looked at this way. Who appeared to be JR's 5 closest friends or frequent visitors? If it's not one of those 5, a really good chance they know who it is. So why not, right now, even anonymously come out and name this person? And it seems natural to assume it's someone connected to JR (doesn't visit anymore) and not MB"

I wouldn't say it's necessarily true that CR/MB would know the DD. If this person dealt in quantity, they only deal with a few. They don't like to be known, for obvious reasons. I'm inclined to believe that if a DD was called in for clean up, that it wasn't some townie or college bro who slangs grams to frat brothers. Just because someone sells coke doesn't make them a gangster or someone capable of disposing a body.

About the girls being seemingly overreactive in the morning following her disappearance, I think the recent info kind of justifies that. Even if they didn't witness it, it seems like there were a fair amount of people who were aware of Lauren's condition that night who could have told them in the morning when they were asking around of her whereabouts.

Just last weekend one of my friends visiting from out of town was completely belligerent and fall-over-drunk while we were out. I went into the bathroom to take a piss, and he was in the stall puking. I went out to get him a glass of water from the bar, and next thing I know, he's gone. He seriously must've busted some master ninja moves to get out without anyone in our group seeing him. The bouncer said he stumbled out of the bar, and up the street. Looked up and down and couldn't find him. Tried calling him and his phone was dead. We ended up getting back to my apartment around 2:30am, and he was nowhere to be found. There really wasn't anything we could do at the time, so we just went to bed. When I woke up in the morning, I called my friend who he was staying at a hotel with, and he never came back. I frantically called every hospital and prison in the city -- to no avail. I totally panicked and tried to file a missing persons report. Apparently in SF you cant until they've been missing for 72 hours. I woke my fiance up and told her we had to go searching for him. I jump out of bed, put clothes on, and walk into my living room, and there's the F-ing spooning the concierge from my club (she went out with us that night and ended up crashing at my place) on my couch.

I guess here's the point of the story -- I wasn't freaked out because I didn't know where he was. He's a grown man and can handle himself. It was because I knew how craphoused he was when I last saw him, and there was no trace of him. If these girls, JW, anyone did catch wind of LS's condition from the night before, I totally understand their alarm in the morning when no one knows where she is.


---- If anyone's wondering, apparently he shaded out to get a rub'n'tug in Chinatown and the madam robbed him of his phone and wallet with a taser. He somehow managed to stumble back to my apartment where he was locked out, and slept on the streets with the bums until someone from my building let him in. I would normally give him serious poop about pulling a move like this, but I think the taser burn on his neck is enough :|

 

[Igor]

Also, not that this really matters because I don't think JW was involved in her disappearance, but if I was a gambler, I'd bet that he was in flagrante delicto with some strumpet that night. There's no way he's relaxing at home drinking a few beers and watching a basketball game while his girlfriend is out doing drugs and getting piggyback rides from some she just met.

I'm guessing he had to account for his whereabouts that morning right after they believed her missing, so I think it makes sense that he would try to hide this. At the time he probably thought she would return, and didn't want her to find out. He really has no incentive at this point to change his story because it will make him look like a total douche bag and cast him in a shadow of doubt for lying. It's the only thing that explains the inconsistencies in his recanting of events and him ignoring LS/not hunting down CR that night -- other than actually being involved in her disappearance, where he would have had to act alone. Why else would he lie??

 

[Hillside]

I have more questions than answers. We seem to be down to a relatively small group of dedicated sleuths here. My sense is that this group can offer expertise in law, culture, forensics, and a broad range areas useful in the search for LS.

BPD, at last count, reports more than 2,600 tips, yet we seem to be no closer to finding LS than we were a year ago. Perhaps LE is on track, but, based on reports from RS/CS and BD (PI), it's doubtful. I've followed this case from the beginning on WS, PT, JRNTT, TG, FB, and everywhere else I can find, and I've gone back to some first-month posts recently. At that time, we had some access to information that came from individuals close to the PsOI or individuals who represented themselves that way online. That stream is now apparently dry. Why?

I have no doubt that LS ran with a hard-partying group and that these young "ladies and gentlemen" do not want more details than they have already provided spread over the Internet. I also have no doubt that at least one of them has information that can help find LS. Have they let nothing of interest slip to their friends during the past year? Have any of these tips been reported in hopes of claiming the reward? I suspect so, but cannot be certain.

We live in a civilized society that rightfully penalizes vigilante justice, so we rely on LE, licensed investigators, and our judicial system to move beyond this impasse. Yet, we seem stuck. RS/CS have made heartfelt pleas based on morality, but those, too, have failed to produce results. Why?

Where do we WS-ers go from here to be most helpful? What legal options do RS/CS have?

 

[elmorejames]

In regards to a DD. This could be any person affiliated with the school or ties to the local community. Ie. Townie, student, friend of a student perhaps from a major city like Indy or Chitown, even shady LE. I even came across one character on FB who had ties to JR's (ZD) roommate who was back home for the summer. His "trapping" (slang for dealing) talk could and should be looked into.

What I think will happen if it does involve a DD, is that as soon as these boys get their degree and move on that's when the talking will happen. Obviously had they not returned to finish their degree after this night, they look guilty. Ratting, clearing their names, or supplying LE with evidence could put them in serious danger by the DD and associates. Retribution and retaliation could be huge. In many major cities the "no snitching" policy is king and when victims talk something always happens. As soon as these boys put Bloomington in their rearview I feel confident the truth will be revealed.

Now back to JW, there's no may in my mind that kid was pulling any action on the side. Just from pictures he looks lucky enough to have been with LS. That being said, we don't know if the CR/ZO situation was something that stemmed from the Indy 500 or something that was orchestrated by JW. But just think for one second, had JW been responsible for LS's disappearance the ZO piece of the puzzle sure played into his favor. While probably not planned, it sure took any and all pressure of JW.

Still think the rumors of ZO as a confidential informant is bigger than it is. He also could have been a dealer with goods supplied from LE. A vicious cycle, take drugs off the street, supply to a college kid to deal, 100% profit. It just seems weird that will all this talk he's got no record on file aside from traffic violations, and he was never pursued by LE even when he's on video having a full on assault charge against him?!?!

 

[VeryVeritas]

Also, not that this really matters because I don't think JW was involved in her disappearance, but if I was a gambler, I'd bet that he was in flagrante delicto with some strumpet that night. There's no way he's relaxing at home drinking a few beers and watching a basketball game while his girlfriend is out doing drugs and getting piggyback rides from some she just met.

I'm guessing he had to account for his whereabouts that morning right after they believed her missing, so I think it makes sense that he would try to hide this. At the time he probably thought she would return, and didn't want her to find out. He really has no incentive at this point to change his story because it will make him look like a total douche bag and cast him in a shadow of doubt for lying. It's the only thing that explains the inconsistencies in his recanting of events and him ignoring LS/not hunting down CR that night -- other than actually being involved in her disappearance, where he would have had to act alone. Why else would he lie??

Not that I'm letting him totally off the hook, but what is there to challenge his statement that he was asleep?