IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

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  • #261
I'm willing to entertain a theory or scenario about ZO but I have not heard any other than she was possibly dumped at his lake. How, why, when, etc.?

Jilted suitor, fake hero is the scenario I heard put forth. It goes back to the altercation at Smallwood and whatever that could've been about. Unbelievable that we still really have no concrete idea what that was all about after all this time.

Kinda my point though... If we had some comments and info to dissect from these other people would we be as solely focused on the 5N bunch?

Which then begs the question why isn't LE more focused on them? ...Or at least they don't seem to be from the outside looking in.
 
  • #262
  • #263
I'm willing to entertain a theory or scenario about ZO but I have not heard any other than she was possibly dumped at his lake. How, why, when, etc.?

I dont really think she left 5N, but in the interest of entertaining ideas about ZO, did he still live in the house at 10th and college on Jun 3? Could LS have made it to that house without being picked up on camera? Had she been a bit more coherent I can think of several reasons why she might have wanted to talk to ZO both that night and also before he talked to JW again, but is this even possible?
 
  • #264
Jilted suitor, fake hero is the scenario I heard put forth. It goes back to the altercation at Smallwood and whatever that could've been about. Unbelievable that we still really have no concrete idea what that was all about after all this time.

Kinda my point though... If we had some comments and info to dissect from these other people would we be as solely focused on the 5N bunch?

Which then begs the question why isn't LE more focused on them? ...Or at least they don't seem to be from the outside looking in.

I thought he was in a serious relationship so I'm not so sure about the jilted suitor role. I did read he was in the habit of rescuing girls though. I don't fault him for that that night. I've known guys who play that role and there is nothing untoward about it; others might have ulterior motives but the PTers didn't suggest that iirc.
 
  • #265
I dont really think she left 5N, but in the interest of entertaining ideas about ZO, did he still live in the house at 10th and college on Jun 3? Could LS have made it to that house without being picked up on camera? Had she been a bit more coherent I can think of several reasons why she might have wanted to talk to ZO both that night and also before he talked to JW again, but is this even possible?

AFAIK he still lived in the apts at 10 and College. Based on the Lohud interview with PIs it sounds like there is a camera at/near the entrance and inside, probably several.

What reasons would she want to talk to ZO? And what do you mean "before he talked to JW again"?
 
  • #266
When I first posted on this board bout three months ago, I was almost sure that one of the 5N rats were responsible, and argued for it.

Now, after thinking more and having more time pass....my mind has changed.

I think this was a random abduction. As bad as they appear to be, I just don't think it's likely for these boys - in their drunken state - to be able to successfully hide a body with no trace of DNA and keep it UNCOVERED, with nobody cracking, for over a year. And consider that both JR and CR returned to school the next year, renting the exact same townhouse. Do you really think they would have had enough gall to do that if they were actually guilty of dragging a decades body out of that apt and hiding it, not matter how "soulless' they are known to be? BD is equally open to the possibility or a random abduction as well.

Another interesting thing that has crossed my mind is how they would know for SURE that Lauren was actually dead - and be sure enough to go the extreme of disposing of her?? As far as I know, there were no med students in that group, and just because you can't detect a pulse or her breath, somebody could still be alive and in cardiac arrest or ODing, and in this case you CALL AN AMBULACNE ASAP. This is was Bo Dietel said - he didn't' know why any of them did not call an ambulance if she was clearly passed our or ODing. The prospect of having to explain that she did some coke or drank too much is nothing compared to driving down the street with a body in your car.


I think that Lauren was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and she did functionally walk away from 5N, and within the two or so blocks that nobody was watching her, she met her unfortunate fate involving some random pervert who nobody will likely ever know.

Of course, the million dollar question is that if these guys had nothing to do with it, why are they not talking and getting lawyers? The answer is pretty simple in my opinion: they are afraid. There was hefty amounts of shady stuff going on: large amounts of coke use, and maybe some gang rape. Stuff that - in it's own right - is enough to put somebody behind bars for a few years. Suppose these guys talked to the police or investigators and their elaborations regarding sexual exploits or source of the cocaine was revealed. With a family and public eager to lock somebody up and point a finger, it would be fairly easy to charge and accuse these kids with manslaughter or related cause. So their wealthy and law-savvey parents are probably saying: Don't talk!! Just don't say ANYTHING! If you want to stay out of jail, keep your mouth shut! Which, by and large, is the right advice.

Both the Gary Condit and John Benat Ramsey cases come to mind when for months there was a clear suspect, but then that person ended up not having any part in it. I'm inclined to believe it is similar here.

1) It does not take a Dr. to know if someone is dead.
2) It's possible that she never made it to 5N. or at least not upstairs.
3) There are many ways to hide a body, and I'm not going to get into that, there are enough missing people as it is.
4) where would this "random abduction" have occurred?
5) Do you realize that the odds of random stranger abduction in general are less than .2%
While the odds of knowing the person are 99.8%?
 
  • #267
Note of clarification:
JW was with his own father, not RS, when he confronted JR.

Just curious how they communicate. Recently someone said that JR talks with them often. Curious if it's the same with JW.
 
  • #268
AFAIK he still lived in the apts at 10 and College. Based on the Lohud interview with PIs it sounds like there is a camera at/near the entrance and inside, probably several.

What reasons would she want to talk to ZO? And what do you mean "before he talked to JW again"?


I mean that if she did go there, and I don't think she did, that would men that all of the boys at 5N are telling the truth and that would mean that she was still wanting to party on. She might have went there for that purpose. About talking to ZO before he may have spoken to JW again I mean in case she didn't want JW to know she had been with CR, maybe find out if JW already knew who she was with or try to talk ZO into not telling him, maybe. Those would be the reason I could think of, but I haven't thought of many because I don't really think this happened. Mostly I was just curious if it was even a possibility and it doesn't sound like it was.

Oh, and the reason I said *again* is because I was under the impression that ZO and JW were friends so I just made the assumption that they talked to each other if not often then on occasion.
 
  • #269
Bloomington police: Woman fends off attacker with pepper spray
BY JON BLAU [email protected]
September 3, 2012


BLOOMINGTON -- A 21-year-old woman walking home from a local bar was able to fend off an attacker with pepper spray early Sunday morning at the intersection of Seventh and Grant streets.

At 1:51 a.m., after leaving Kilroy’s Bar and Grill on Kirkwood Avenue, the woman was approached by a white man wearing a red T-shirt and blue jeans who appeared to be in his mid-40s with short, brown, matted hair. He also had a “rough complexion,” according to Bloomington police Lt. Bill Parker.
http://www.tmnews.com/stories/2012/09/03/news.710245.tms
 
  • #270
  • #271
  • #272
Found this piece apparently written by a Physician for Good Morning America on head injuries. Lauren slamming her head on the concrete by falling over to the side really got me thinking that this was extremely serious on top of what was making her keel over in the first place.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=7121271&page=2#.UEV6l5a3dMc

Drugs have been alleged; Xanax, Klonopin, and Cocaine. Also possible are that she was slipped something maybe even on top of one or more of those. Yet, has there really been any confirmation that someone firsthand saw LS use any of those drugs that night?

What is confirmed is that she had at least 1 drink at Kilroys, correct? What did she drink? Not sure how likely it is that when she was at JR's she just sat there while others were partaking. What is also confirmed is that she hit her head at least 2 times and very hard with in a short time span. This blow to the side of the head on concrete is what got me thinking that she was in need need of medical attention immediately, if from nothing else, from that alone. A blow to the head like that can easily be fatal to anyone. How can it be that if she could not even sit up without slamming her head, then a few minutes later can not walk unassisted without slamming down face first... is then a few minutes later wanting to party more? That is very inconsistent. How do you suddenly get up and walk around and pass a JR walk test? Think about it. Why come up with the idea of a walk test in the first place??
This is Bogus criteria which seems to me concocted to justify her disappearance. Someone that has obvious serious head injuries and who couldn't walk or even sit up right a few minutes earlier is more likely to decline in the short term than make a sudden sober recovery. You give a "walk test" because you already know this person can't walk, or couldn't walk and dropped dead already. You fabricate a story with this walk test so that you can take focus off of her being dead. If you said instead, oh she was really out of it and couldn't really walk, then how could you explain what happened to her? Maybe the Bruising(or black eye, whichever he actually said) JR says he saw was a massive brain hemorrhage from the side impact to her skull pouring out under her skin. A very deep and severe hemorrhage would appear darker rapidly. I'm also curious how from the face down fall she would not have been bleeding at all. Not one drop of blood anywhere?

If I had not heard JR or MB say anything about what happened after 3:00am and had to go by the head sideways impact to concreted and face down slam in the lot and had to guess what happened next:

1) I would think she would not get up on her own again.
2) That if others were present, knowing her and CR or not would offer to help.
3) That if others helped; like were going to put her in a car and take her home or to ER but she expired they may have panicked and did something to hide her for fear of being involved in her death. It's been said that JR had no car that evening. But that doesn't mean JR didn't have any possible access to a vehicle. CR likely was in no condition to drive, so wouldn't take his own car. Again, I would think vehicles could be narrowed because of the white truck saga, vehicles traveling out of the lot and down Morton would be captured on cams. LE may have more vehicle evidence that they can't release. The known LS from cams at SW barely able to get out of the elevator, slamming head down on the side onto concrete so it could be heard by witnesses, then slamming down face first without protecting the fall with hands are a clear picture of what was happening to Lauren, that seems VERY different than the one depicted by MB and MB's lawyer just a few minutes later, and also quite different from the one described by JR. Here we have 3 different depictions of Lauren within a 1 hr time span, one is recorded and has her in incredibly bad condition. Another has her in bad shape but doing well enough to walk home barefoot alone. And the one in between has her apparently in good shape and not wanting to call it a night.
There is too huge of a gap between the stories of MB, MB's Lawyer, JR and what is recorded and witnessed by others.

For me, that throws that .2% random abductor possibility into much more fractional possibility.

I've been leaning towards her not ever walking again after she fell in the lot since June.
This seems to be supported by the posts about dogs.
I think if she ever was in CR/MB's and/or JR's after that, she was carried there. And unfortunately, either way, appears to me that she never walked anywhere again.

There still seems to be quite a lot of unknowns about who was at JR's from out of town, and what possible vehicles may have been present from POI's and used (with or without their knowledge) to remove LS. Please help me eliminate any of these if you can:

1) The 5N dumpster. It seems this remains a possibility. The pickup was the day following her disappearance wasn't it? Someone said this was a frequently used dumpster, to me that would only seem to help conceal a very small body already covered deep inside.
2) Another dumpster in the area. (including the one(s) at 10th and College. or the building where the wallet and keys were found.
3) Hiding her in a car trunk or back of an SUV, etc... until the next day.
4) Hiding her in some other nearby place; down in a manhole covered sewer drop, a storeroom, a storage unit, up on a roof, under a vehicle, in a vacant apt or apt where someone had already left town. camouflaged under some foliage. This could mean that she may have been moved anytime from just before 3:00am to days or even weeks later.

For various reasons I favor #3. Once out of the area, I think if JR had anything to do with it, that she would have been buried or placed in an existing tomb.
They key would be vehicles in that lot or around the immediate 1 block area. But it may have not appeared on cam for several hours to even day or more later. Unless a vehicle was parked right out on 11th (forgetting if that was allowed at the time).
 
  • #273
  • #274
I am still troubled by the discrepancies in MB's stories. At first he seemed the most likely to be innocent of any wrongdoing; he was sober and working on papers due the next day. JR [and possible guests] saw LS after MB. So it seems that MB should be the least likely to be the source of conflicting stories, but that's not the case....

In contrast, there are no stories that originate from CR except for the story of memory loss [did he know that he got punched before the videotapes were seen?] and JR's story has been given more details but it has been consistent.

Snipped by me. So many inconsistencies in MB's stories, as you note. Also, the recent Lohud report makes you wonder if he was sober: "At Rossman’s apartment, Beth, his neighbor, was still awake; he’d been drinking and finishing a paper for class."

Maybe MB went to talk to JR in person but didn't bring LS with him? Then again, he supposedly called JR later. ??? IDK what to think in terms of MB's accounts, frankly.
 
  • #275
Snipped by me. So many inconsistencies in MB's stories, as you note. Also, the recent Lohud report makes you wonder if he was sober: "At Rossman’s apartment, Beth, his neighbor, was still awake; he’d been drinking and finishing a paper for class."

Maybe MB went to talk to JR in person but didn't bring LS with him? Then again, he supposedly called JR later. ??? IDK what to think in terms of MB's accounts, frankly.

So there's another discrepancy from MB. Was he sober as initially reported

http://www.examiner.com/article/lau...case-on-two-week-anniversary-of-disappearance

or had he been drinking?
 
  • #276
So there's another discrepancy from MB. Was he sober as initially reported

http://www.examiner.com/article/lau...case-on-two-week-anniversary-of-disappearance

or had he been drinking?

I guess it depends on whether the reporter of the Lohud piece actually interviewed MB and is reliable. The wording is the reporter's, IMO. Here's the link: http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use.

I suppose it could be taken out of context, i.e., he'd been drinking at JR's earlier, right? I'm not defending MB here, but the media accounts are also confusing me, to a degree.

See what you think ...
 
  • #277
  • #278
I think JW was obviously not involved and I dont think he is a "suspect". He was initially a POI, being the b/f, but his whole behavior has been of someone who is innocent, unrelated to the crime, and justifiably upset.

Jesse is a serious Phishhead and I'm not convinced he was friends with the boys Lauren saw that June night. They are all friends with eachother but maybe not friends of Jesse Wolff. Jesse was not at the Indianapolis 500 with this group and I'd bet phone records show none of them contacted him that night. The people who camped out with Lauren at the 500 were friends with her roommate and friends with JR. On the Indy 500 camping trip were LS, HT, CR, ZO, JR, AB, MB, and DR. So, if we are right and the PsOI are involved, it may be one or more of these guys who took Lauren away. I'm sure HT and DR have been cleared by Smallwood video. Perhaps, ZO and AB have been cleared as well by video evidence that only the police and PI's have seen. If they have not been cleared? Then, I would search that lake in Indianapolis that is connected with these guys. After all, the legend is that they sunk her in a lake.
 
  • #279
Jesse is a serious Phishhead and I'm not convinced he was friends with the boys Lauren saw that June night. They are all friends with eachother but maybe not friends of Jesse Wolff. Jesse was not at the Indianapolis 500 with this group and I'd bet phone records show none of them contacted him that night. The people who camped out with Lauren at the 500 were friends with her roommate and friends with JR. On the Indy 500 camping trip were LS, HT, CR, ZO, JR, AB, MB, and DR. So, if we are right and the PsOI are involved, it may be one or more of these guys who took Lauren away. I'm sure HT and DR have been cleared by Smallwood video. Perhaps, ZO and AB have been cleared as well by video evidence that only the police and PI's have seen. If they have not been cleared? Then, I would search that lake in Indianapolis that is connected with these guys. After all, the legend is that they sunk her in a lake.

I kind of wish they just would go ahead and search it for good measure. Get it out of the way and off the table.

Slightly O/T: so I may not should even say this, it's a little odd. But, anyway. I have absolutely no real basis for my thinking here, (aside from the fact that I've acted like a weirdo by checking every inch of ZO's web presence I could possibly find, but that isn't really a real basis, but I just don't get a vibe from him that he is the type of guy to do this sort of thing. I know he is alleged to be somewhat of a criminal and a drug dealer but for some reason I just read him as a guy that wouldn't be involved in this kind of thing. Again, I have no idea why when I really don't even know at all. BUT. I get the exact opposite vibes from JR and MB. Again I'm not sure why. Maybe it's some sort of physiological reaction to the details of their socio-economic placement. I'm unsure, and I'm also unsure if my subtle unconscious response leads me around by the nose into directions that are pointless. I should probably be studied. On the University level. By and entire team of Doctors.
If they ever end up finding LS in ZO's lake I think I'll volunteer for exactly that.
I did have a point though, after reading all the percentages up thread I started wondering if I'm as odd as I think or if vibes about individual POI's or suspects play a significant role in the direction people take their theories. I wonder about that because I think I'd be more inclined to really consider a theory I might otherwise dismiss if the theorist let me know that their theory was based at least to some degree in their intuition. Obviously, one can't run around replacing facts for vibes all willy nilly, but how much credence should they play, I wonder.
 
  • #280
A) perhaps your extensive research of ZO didn't lead you to the fact that his father is no slouch in the business world. ZO is like CR, MB, and JR in that money puts a chip on his shoulder. the socio economics are alike enough to be from the same side of tracks maybe a few stops apart. ZO overcompensates for himself, his actions are unnecessary and quite frankly him he's on his home turf one primary POI who is from the Hoosier State.

B) like you I've hawked all these people online, even random names connected to all the media has never mentioned.

C) Hopefully sleuths like us are never jurors with this line of thinking! I'm waiting for my letter in the mail calling me :)
 
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