IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[akh]

I encourage you to play devil's advocate. But I also encourage you by presenting FACTS that supercede the FACTS I'm working with.

You are not working with facts. You are working with a 2nd or 3rd person restating of a statement, rumor, etc... I doubt you even have an idea where the PI's got the story they are telling or how close they are to telling it verbatim.

For purposes of speculation we can assume it's accurate, but for purposes of accuracy we cannot assume it's even the truth, let alone that it has not been embellished (intentionally or not).

As for hearing her head hit the concrete, the witness might've said that, the witness might've thought that, but I'm extremely doubtful the witness heard any such thing unless the witness was right beside them at the time.

Obviously it helps advance the narrative that she was in bad shape and potentially badly injured before ever getting to 5N.

But how much sound would a head hitting concrete really make? Then it has to be heard over the sounds of the city, running cars, etc..

It's the kind of detail that the mind fills in later. I'd like to hear the actual witness' description to get a better feel for whether they really heard anything. It's like the witness that thinks they saw something and then under questioning it comes out they would've had their vision blocked somehow and couldn't have seen what they claimed to have seen (and believed they had).

Besides that, there is still the issue of seeing her hit her head. Again, to advance the narrative that she was in bad shape and totally out of it before ever getting to 5N then taking this as being an awful impact does that.

But step back... if it was so awful that the person seeing it really thought they'd just seen someone sustaining a head injury and clearly in grave danger needing medical attention, then why didn't this witness do anything at the time?

The simple answer could be because it didn't look that bad to them at the time. And if it didn't look that bad to them at the time, in the moment, then maybe it wasn't that bad.

And considering we're getting information at least 2nd hand (we don't even know if the PI's got their info directly from this witness AFAIK) it's possible the witness themself still doesn't put the weight to it that you are. Or that you believe the witness is giving it... because you haven't heard directly from the witness. Which means your 'fact' is not a 'fact' at all. It's just another unsubstantiated report.

I challenge you a third time on the logic of refuting that LS head slam on concrete was HEARD. This is not something that can be exaggerated or embellished. It's a black and white issue. Either the person heard it or they didn't. Either the PI's made this up or they didn't. This is not like someone is saying a noise sounded like.... or I think it was about xx O'clock. Or he a was about xx feet tall. This is a pure logic question. There was an audible sound when her head hit the concrete or there was not. The PI's know this to be true, or they lied. There is no middle ground. You can't partially make a sound hitting head on concrete. There is either a sound or there is not. Perhaps you have difficulty understanding logic?

I can assure you I have no problems with logic.

I'm trying to be as analytical as possible and remaining open-minded to all possibilities.

Before I'm ready to believe there's absolutely no way LS could've walked out of JR's apartment I'd like to know how she exited Smallwood after the altercation?

You are using the word "slam" to describe her head hitting concrete. Is that what the PI's said? I've lost track at this point. I know you've used that term prior but I don't know if that's because you're faithfully using the PI's quote or putting your own spin on that detail to strengthen your theory.

And if it is accurately quoting the PI's is it accurately quoting the witness?

Again, we cannot know because we've not officially heard from that witness or seen a transcript of any statements.

Without these things we don't have facts.

-snipped-

AGain, I have always encourages WS'rs to show how my theories COULD NOT BE. This is how I keep improving them and trying to make sense of what happened to get closer to the truth. You present no facts to refute, conflict with, or which supercede those of the PI's. So for now the Facts presented by the PI's are quite solid to me, as are the facts released by LE, and Lauren's family and statements made publicly (correcting for bad journalism). So if you and I are in a room and the light goes on, the opinion of whether the light is on or off is rather useless.

I'm not trying to show how your theory could not be. I've already stated it is a valid theory. It's just that you seem fixed on your theory as being all about logic and facts without acknowledging it's not actually 100% fact based. There are assumed facts that very well could fall apart upon cross examination. Or are simply an invalid conclusion because we're not working directly with the people making the statements.

-snipped-

You want to throw out that the head hitting the concrete made a sound, ok. You also want to throw out the video of her slamming face down exiting the alley - ok.

I think I said prior I'm unaware that there is any public knowledge about a video her "slamming" face down exiting the alley. Have I missed something or forgotten something?

AFAIK the only thing we've heard describing the video in any detail is about the Smallwood video. And even that is not a confirmed account.

You are of the opinion that she was just fine and walked to 5N on her own two feet to party some more? Perhaps you are also of the opinion that the earth is flat? (not being rude, just trying to illustrate a point).

I never said that. I'm of the opinion that there hasn't been one thing confirmed in the public arena that would definitively be evidence that she did not walk out of 5N on her own. That doesn't mean she walked out, it means that I'm willing to be open-minded to the possibility until something more definitive comes along.

Here's the important point:

If you tell me there's no way she walked out of 5N then I tell you that you're wrong. If you tell me that if the things you've heard can be believed, and if you're interpreting things correctly, then there's no way she walked out of 5N then I tell you I agree with you.

Please poke holes in my theories with facts, or logical analysis on why they can't be the truth.

 

[akh]

I realize it sounds like I'm arguing against you or a particular theory, but I'm merely arguing against certainty.

I wish I would've said that... I type a lot of words trying to say exactly that.

 

[Skigirl]

I've always been of the opinion that the evidence and statistics point toward people Lauren knew. But... what if that crazy psycho who confessed to killing Bill and Lorraine Currier in Vermont (in addition to the girl he abducted from the coffee booth in Alaska and five others in the lower 48) was in Indiana at the time of Lauren's disappearance?

According to the FBI, he was in the Midwest between 6/2/2011 and 6/16/2011.

His behavior is truly unpredictable but there was a method to his madness. He picked the Curriers in Vermont because they lived in the type house in which the layout was be predictable from the outside and where he didn't think there were dogs or children, then invaded with a headlamp on while they slept and got both of them under control. He later deposited evidence many miles away near the Adirondacks in New York.

The abduction in Alaska that got him caught was of a woman around Lauren's age, at night, in a semi-isolated location. If there was evidence he was in Bloomington during the two weeks he spent in the midwest in 2011, I would take a very good look at him as a possible suspect.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139627&page=13

 

[Foxfire]

“Vanished With John Walsh” AIRED ON DECEMBER 3, 2012" Videos - scroll down for each segment

There are at least 85,000 active missing persons cases in this country and 37,000 of them are children under the age of 18. We are talking about people who have vanished – disappeared without a trace – and the families who are desperately looking for any clue that will bring them home safely. Plus, “America’s Most Wanted” host John Walsh joined us and opened up about when his own child disappeared 31 years ago.

John Walsh knows first-hand the horror and helplessness a parent feels when a child disappears. It has been 31 years since his son Adam disappeared without a trace at age 6. And as host of America’s Most Wanted he has been part of the successful capture of more than 1,200 criminals.

A year and a half-ago, then 20-year-old Indiana University student Lauren Spierer went missing. Her parents, Charlene and Rob Spierer, are still desperately looking for clues that will help solve the mystery of what happened to their youngest daughter.


“I’m frustrated and I’m angry at this point… We’ve been stonewalled.” -Rob Spierer

Vanished: Gone Without A Trace
http://www.katiecouric.com/on-the-sh...thout-a-trace/


“There’s no way to ever get over it.” -John Walsh

 

[British]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...arents-stonewalled-by-last-people-to-see-her/

“I truly don’t think it was a random abduction,” she (Lauren's mother) said. “I think that somebody that Lauren knew was responsible for the events of that evening.”

 

[Ros]

not following, but interested... please elaborate.

Let's say that one (or more) of the guys at 5N had something that he would not want the police to find. This guy also knows that Lauren is going to be discovered missing the next day. He realizes that the police will want to investigate all the people who had contact with the previous evening and he's included. So he gives his contraband to someone else for safekeeping. The someone else does not know what happened to Lauren but does know that the guy from 5N has reason to worry. The someone else does not want to say anything to LE or PIs because he would probably have to admit to possession of the contraband in the process. Such a person might be a source of an anonymous letter stating that a guy from 5N behaved suspiciously, but give too few details for LE to go on.

 

[LongTallTexan]

I think part of the debate here is the difference in the 'facts' that WS can discuss and analyze form MSM and LE, and everything else is rumor, so therefore we view them as our 'facts'; verses the REAL FACTS of what really happened, and those we may never know because almost all the info we'll ever receive will be interpreted or someone's witness account.

 

[Jacobite]

I encourage you to play devil's advocate. But I also encourage you by presenting FACTS that supercede the FACTS I'm working with.

I challenge you a third time on the logic of refuting that LS head slam on concrete was HEARD. This is not something that can be exaggerated or embellished. It's a black and white issue. Either the person heard it or they didn't. Either the PI's made this up or they didn't. This is not like someone is saying a noise sounded like.... or I think it was about xx O'clock. Or he a was about xx feet tall. This is a pure logic question. There was an audible sound when her head hit the concrete or there was not. The PI's know this to be true, or they lied. There is no middle ground. You can't partially make a sound hitting head on concrete. There is either a sound or there is not. Perhaps you have difficulty understanding logic? It's like a light switch, that is either off or on. There is no dimmer switch with a sound of a head hitting concrete. The head either hit and was heard or it was not. No exaggerations, no embellishments.

AGain, I have always encourages WS'rs to show how my theories COULD NOT BE. This is how I keep improving them and trying to make sense of what happened to get closer to the truth. You present no facts to refute, conflict with, or which supercede those of the PI's. So for now the Facts presented by the PI's are quite solid to me, as are the facts released by LE, and Lauren's family and statements made publicly (correcting for bad journalism). So if you and I are in a room and the light goes on, the opinion of whether the light is on or off is rather useless.

If you think the PI's are lying about the head hitting concrete sound, I'd be interested in hearing why you think that. It could change my view of things. If you think the person who said they heard it is lying, then I would find that interesting too. Why would they lie? That might change my view. I see no reason why someone would come forward and explicitly say they heard her head hit the concrete. And sure the PI's did make a point of this, which is why it is important to my theories. By them pointing out her head trauma it's not an exaggeration. Morever, there are 3 times LS was falling down. 2 of them involved falls that could have(according to even JR's attributed statements) caused injuries. It's not very likely that JR conspired with someone to say they heard LS head slam down over at 10th and College steps only so that it would corroborate with JR's observations of LS's black eye forming.
You want to throw out that the head hitting the concrete made a sound, ok. You also want to throw out the video of her slamming face down exiting the alley - ok. You are of the opinion that she was just fine and walked to 5N on her own two feet to party some more? Perhaps you are also of the opinion that the earth is flat? (not being rude, just trying to illustrate a point).

Please poke holes in my theories with facts, or logical analysis on why they can't be the truth.

No one disputes that she fell and hit her head. But, you are the only one using the words face slam and head slam. We have not seen the video, interviewed the witness, or done the required experiment with physics to determine the force of this impact. The witness seems most concerned that a wasted girl is set up for rape. I don't think she anticipated dead or missing.

 

[Jacobite]

From reading 3 accounts, I believe the witness observes Lauren and Corey leaving the area of Smallwood. She is so concerned that she circles back and catches up with them after they knock on doors at 10th and College. She asks if Lauren is OK. Lauren's eyes are nearly closed and she does not speak. Corey says he has it under control. They are sitting on the steps. Lauren falls back and hits her head. Lauren gets up and falls again without blocking the fall. The witness sees Corey pick Lauren up and give her a piggy back ride up the alley.
Now, to the last cam. There are no eye witnesses. So, this must be from cam. The detective did not fabricate or get an account from Corey. They sit down at 10th and College Village. Upon rising she drops her gold key in the alley. Corey is tugging and pulling her along on her feet.

 

[Jacobite]

A tracking dog loses a live scent. In any other case this means you died or were loaded into a vehicle. I'm told the dog loses live scent the moment blood flow is interrupted.
What is syncope from Long QT? So, the obvious answer may be the wrong answer in this case?

 

[Jacobite]

Before the invention of the Stethoscope, syncope was often mistaken for death. I truly hope these guys did not make that mistake. I don't think she really died within 5 North. If the cadaver dogs had detected the death scent inside, we would have an arrest or at least a suspect.

 

[British]

Before the invention of the Stethoscope, syncope was often mistaken for death. I truly hope these guys did not make that mistake. I don't think she really died within 5 North. If the cadaver dogs had detected the death scent inside, we would have an arrest or at least a suspect.

You dont need a stethoscope to feel a pulse.

 

[bx2]

From yesterday's IDS:

At least 101 people are recorded missing in Indiana according to state and national databases. One year and six months ago, IU student Lauren Spierer was added to that list. They are daughters, sons, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers and friends. They are all missing.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/mfiles/pdfs/0000-ID-1908345540.pdf

 

[Thinking About It]

I'm new to this forum. Here’s why I joined…to post this:

It seems to me that the conversation threads are about who did what. Very little about how to find the body—which would obviously be the biggest clue to what happened.

So, I went to the Herald Times archives, and took a look at the news from June 2nd and 3rd of 2011. Originally, I was wondering what the weather was that morning, and thought I might find it in those archives. Unfortunately, the archives give only the first line, and charge for the rest. But I stumbled on this headline:

Highway crews to assist residents in removing debris from storm Monday
By Abby Tonsing
June 3, 2011

Monroe County highway crews will be available to assist homeowners with free storm debris removal in two designated area ...
--------------------------
And that got me thinking about how a body could disappear.

Did someone put her body with storm debris, and it got “removed” from one of those two “designated areas” or anywhere there was some huge pile of storm debris, and taken to a particular dump that is not the one that was searched?

Yes, this would require someone to intentionally get rid of her body. But if someone did, they could have put her into a yard bag, she was tiny, could probably fit all of her into one bag, and leave it, hidden in plain sight with storm debris. Wouldn’t really take much to think of it, the storm and the debris seem to have been quite major.

My area recently had to deal with major storm debris (not Sandy) and there were huge piles of it everywhere, and trucks coming in from out of state to help haul it away. The storm happened the week before poor LS disappeared, and folks would have known that stuff was being hauled hither and yon.

 

[Ros]

I'm new to this forum. Here’s why I joined…to post this:

It seems to me that the conversation threads are about who did what. Very little about how to find the body—which would obviously be the biggest clue to what happened.

So, I went to the Herald Times archives, and took a look at the news from June 2nd and 3rd of 2011. Originally, I was wondering what the weather was that morning, and thought I might find it in those archives. Unfortunately, the archives give only the first line, and charge for the rest. But I stumbled on this headline:

Highway crews to assist residents in removing debris from storm Monday
By Abby Tonsing
June 3, 2011

Monroe County highway crews will be available to assist homeowners with free storm debris removal in two designated area ...
--------------------------
And that got me thinking about how a body could disappear.

Did someone put her body with storm debris, and it got “removed” from one of those two “designated areas” or anywhere there was some huge pile of storm debris, and taken to a particular dump that is not the one that was searched?

Yes, this would require someone to intentionally get rid of her body. But if someone did, they could have put her into a yard bag, she was tiny, could probably fit all of her into one bag, and leave it, hidden in plain sight with storm debris. Wouldn’t really take much to think of it, the storm and the debris seem to have been quite major.

My area recently had to deal with major storm debris (not Sandy) and there were huge piles of it everywhere, and trucks coming in from out of state to help haul it away. The storm happened the week before poor LS disappeared, and folks would have known that stuff was being hauled hither and yon.

Have you suggested this possibility to the BPD or BD?

 

[imkeylime]

I'm new to this forum. Here’s why I joined…to post this:

It seems to me that the conversation threads are about who did what. Very little about how to find the body—which would obviously be the biggest clue to what happened.

So, I went to the Herald Times archives, and took a look at the news from June 2nd and 3rd of 2011. Originally, I was wondering what the weather was that morning, and thought I might find it in those archives. Unfortunately, the archives give only the first line, and charge for the rest. But I stumbled on this headline:

Highway crews to assist residents in removing debris from storm Monday
By Abby Tonsing
June 3, 2011

Monroe County highway crews will be available to assist homeowners with free storm debris removal in two designated area ...
--------------------------
And that got me thinking about how a body could disappear.

Did someone put her body with storm debris, and it got “removed” from one of those two “designated areas” or anywhere there was some huge pile of storm debris, and taken to a particular dump that is not the one that was searched?

Yes, this would require someone to intentionally get rid of her body. But if someone did, they could have put her into a yard bag, she was tiny, could probably fit all of her into one bag, and leave it, hidden in plain sight with storm debris. Wouldn’t really take much to think of it, the storm and the debris seem to have been quite major.

My area recently had to deal with major storm debris (not Sandy) and there were huge piles of it everywhere, and trucks coming in from out of state to help haul it away. The storm happened the week before poor LS disappeared, and folks would have known that stuff was being hauled hither and yon.

I find your line of reasoning here interesting and plausible. In addition, there was so much construction in Bloomington that summer ... i've always wondered if LS was somehow disposed of with construction debris. But storm debris would be even less suspect, IMO.

There was another missing person's case in MI the same month LS disappeared. Although there's no way the cases are related (the suspect knew the victim well and stabbed her to death), he hid the body in a pile of sand used by the transportation department: http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/nw_mich/Traverse-City-teen-missing-for-one-week

So yes, that's a good theory. One thought I have is whether Bloomington requires residents to use brown paper yard refuse bags vs. the black plastic kind. In my town (in New England), we can only use the brown paper type ... and I'm not sure she would have been totally concealed. ???

 

[Murakami]

2) Why (According to JR) did LS (supposedly) call 2 people looking for her phone, but not call her phone directly to see who might answer?

Have not been around here for a while, but this is one of the most probing questions I've ever seen posed on this forum.

 

[Jacobite]

Golly! Wouldn't it be even more strange if Jay made the 2 calls to Lauren's Smallwood friends attempting to involve them in a conspiracy to hide Lauren? That would be surprise, surprise, surprise!
You might not call your own phone if you had turned it off at 12:16 AM so you wouldn't be disturbed.
She might call the Smallwood guys if she thought they might have been with her when she lost the phone.
Anyway, I will say 75 percent chance that Lauren did not place the calls from Jay's phone.

 

[Jacobite]

You dont need a stethoscope to feel a pulse.

The person who committed this crime played God! No excuses or mercy left for them! May they be caught very soon.

 

[Jacobite]

All trash haulers should have been on the lookout for Lauren by Monday. And, a body in a trash bag would not feel the same as, leaves, shingles, or wood. Furthermore, if one has ever smelled death, this smell will make you puke right now. I think someone should have noticed.