IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

While I think it's possible that it was more than just drugs, Rape and Murder during rape seem progressively less likely. But it does remain a distinct possibility.

The thing is most people would be a lot less likely to cover up or conspire to rape and/or murder than cover for the use/supply of drugs. So, how do you visualize the circumstances of a rape? Do you suspect a gang rape? If not a gang rape then why would CR/MB/JR all lie for each other?

Even though I don't think it got to the point of rape, if it did, these 2 methods seem most likely to me:

1) CR manages to get LS back to CR/MB's and CR brings her to his bed. He rapes or attempts to rape(even though she may be unaware), and she dies in the process. Now MB is not viewing this as rape but doesn't want to be going down for this "girl gone wild" rape scenario. So he lies, maybe even lies to JR to cover his own A$$ but in the process it keeps CR out of hot water too. JR is called and they pin the guilt on him for the drugs she ingested at his place. So they all agree the body must be hidden. So again, this where person X (most likely JR's visitor) may have done the dirty work.
2) The other way I could see this happening is that CR makes it back to CR/MB's apt with her but LS is clearly in bad shape. MB insists that CR get her out of there and calls JR. She winds up over at JR's and CR may have actually then have been put to bed. At JR's it's not just her and JR alone... Perhaps Person X (visitor) is there. Person X/vistor gets her into one of those bedrooms at JR's and she dies during that rape. This time, only Person X / Visitor and JR know that she is dead and follow the same course with hiding the body as in #1.

The common element in both of these scenarios and for that matter the non-rape scenarios which seem more likely is that it seems none of our prime POI's CR/MB/JR, were in a position to vanish her body so thoroughly and quickly that night. I don't think they got lucky. They made a calculated decision to hide someone and so I don't think would be stupid enough to just toss her into the dumpster. (it is possible, just not seeming likely). So, I think at minimum 2 people know what happened. And so far the disposal seems to point more at person X / Visitor than the other 3.

I'm curious, why do you think it's less likely for someone to attempt to conceal a rape/murder than it is for someone to attempt to conceal drugs? It would seem like, using the consequences as the measure, that they would be more likely to cop to drugs but would try like hell to conceal a rape and or death. I just want to make sure I'm not looking at this wrong if you can explain your thought process on that.

No, I don't think it would have been a gang rape situation. *see above* and I can see just about any of the scenarios outlined here as possible.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I think just being that these are frat boys makes it likely there was a "reputation" for this sort of thing. Frat houses are where this sort of thing was born and the term "date rape" originated. I actually haven't ever really thought through how this whole thing might have went down. I've just held out the general theory that she was drugged by someone, in my opinion the most likely person being CR, he no history with her and it's been said, although I don't know where the information came from, that he wanted to sleep with her. However now that there is a dialog about how it may have happened I can see all of these scenarios as possibilities. I don't think it was a gang rape situation though, I think it was a situation of maybe one of the other 5N boys provided assistance in obtaining the GHB for CR, or whoever, and the rest of them just turned their head knowing full well what was going down. Reading these possible scenarios has made me think about 2 things.
1. Could it be the that CR and LS were in his bed and she was passed out and he rapes her, passes out wakes up to find her dead OR she dies DURING the rape and that is why he pukes?
2. Could CR really be innocent and his amnesia is actually from sharing a spiked drink with LS? *I HIGHLY doubt this one. But?

Also, while rolling this around in my mind it occurs to me, we all know that LS is NOT there, she was definitely moved out of the area most likely very early, before 4:00-4:30 am. So, who of these POI's
a) had access to a vehicle
b) was sober enough to risk driving with a dead body in their vehicle

My answer to these questions is DB. IF, and it's a huge huge IF, but for sake of hashing it out, if DB was the one that spiked LS drink and then CR shared that drink with her, either on purpose or getting their beer bottles mixed up whatever, and he really does have a memory loss from that rather than ZO fist, then when MB took LS down to JRs, there was DB. Could JR have ducked out knowing that DB wanted to score with LS, then LS passes out and DB rapes her. Then JR has reason to cover - this has gone down in his house, maybe he supplied the GHB even and this is his business partner so if he doesn't cover for DB then his venture falls apart.

Holy *****. I've just talked myself into seeing DB as the prime suspect.
Eh...it's probably a bit off the wall, but I do wish I knew more information about DB and what, if any, his status is as a POI and what the status of any searches of his vehicle.

Your #1 is very much what I visualized early on.

What later reduced the likeliness of rape to me, even this kind of "date rape" was Lauren's injuries and state just on the way from SW. She was so banged up and perhaps comatose already, I had trouble seeing a follow through on that. But yes, if she were still a little bit conscious, and the injuries did not appear so bad at the time, this would again seem more plausible to me.

And thanks to Sammi89, I'm also seeing DB as the one most likely to have ditched her. The motivations all make sense. If only DB knows the location of her body, the others can't reveal regardless of their degree of involvement. So, I wonder, body, bone fragments or nothing, where the case would go? How would LE / prosecutors compel one to testify against the others? Without a body and physical evidence to prove specific drugs, rape, etc... they do seem safe from criminal prosecution. In a civil suit, it seems to me that JR would be most likely to take the hit. Would not be surprised if he is covered under a general liability policy and that kicks in.

Ok, anyone know where DB's car was parked that night? Was DB ever questioned? Does DB have a lawyer?

It sucks that they will so easily evade penalty for covering up what happened and for vanishing LS. They think they are above the law, and are proving it.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I'm curious, why do you think it's less likely for someone to attempt to conceal a rape/murder than it is for someone to attempt to conceal drugs? It would seem like, using the consequences as the measure, that they would be more likely to cop to drugs but would try like hell to conceal a rape and or death. I just want to make sure I'm not looking at this wrong if you can explain your thought process on that.

No, I don't think it would have been a gang rape situation. *see above* and I can see just about any of the scenarios outlined here as possible.

I agree, what I meant was that deaths due to drugs is about 2,000 times more likely and therefore more likely to be the reason for concealment. But yes rape involving even 3rd degree murder would create more motivation to cover up than death from drugs alone, especially what could be perceived as voluntary consumption.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Oh wow. My mind is spinning.
So, maybe JR doesn't let LS walk off alone. Maybe DB says he'll drive her back up to Smallwood. Could explain the calls, JR looking for DB and wondering where they ended up. I think JR has more reasons to cover for DB than he does anyone else, in fact I don't think he would cover for anyone else other than himself. This would mean the net is tightened down to only 2 possibilities. JR or DB.
I really hope LE checked cameras off the path between 5N and Smallwood. They would check other cameras outside of that area too, wouldn't they?

 

[imkeylime]

I mapped out directions from Bloomington to Ann Arbor. It would have taken DB 5 & 1/2 hours. If he went to West Bloomfield, add another hour. Both routes had a couple different ways and would have taken him near the Great Lakes too.

I think, if involved, she could certainly be along one of these routes. I hesitate to say I think it is probable because the searches have seemed to stay within Bloomington and I would think they have a reason for it?

There was a lot of construction at the time and I've always worried that she could have been placed in cement or something else.

Snipped by me. I've followed this route myself, from Indy to Ann Arbor, before. And being originally from MI, I'd be on this big time if there was some concrete evidence (no pun intended) that DB was involved. But the Runcible Spoon tweet is something, and I myself did see it before it disappeared.

I did check out the West Bloomfield area late that summer, and there was a ton of construction there as well. And there's the Pinckney Recreation area, which he would have passed, which has many, many remote trails and lakes. (Here's a link: http://www.michigan.org/property/pinckney-recreation-area/). There are lakes there that are cold and deep (Half Moon, for example).

But here's the thing: Bringing DB to MI would be risky, too, in that it would really provide a signature. Leaving her body near Indy or somewhere before the MI border would provide for ambiguity in the event that her body was discovered, and I doubt whoever did this could foretell that it wouldn't be. JMO.

 

[elmorejames]

Oh wow. My mind is spinning.
So, maybe JR doesn't let LS walk off alone. Maybe DB says he'll drive her back up to Smallwood. Could explain the calls, JR looking for DB and wondering where they ended up. I think JR has more reasons to cover for DB than he does anyone else, in fact I don't think he would cover for anyone else other than himself. This would mean the net is tightened down to only 2 possibilities. JR or DB.
I really hope LE checked cameras off the path between 5N and Smallwood. They would check other cameras outside of that area too, wouldn't they?

WOW it just crossed my mind. What if JR was meaning to call DB at 430am and mistakenly dialed DR. JR realizes he makes the mistake and hangs up the phone really quick and creates an alibi trying to call DR to get LS into Smallwood.

 

[akh]

Assuming there were cadaver dogs used how do some of the above theories reconcile the dogs not making a hit? Or if the dogs did why isn't someone being charged?

 

[AbbeyR]

WOW it just crossed my mind. What if JR was meaning to call DB at 430am and mistakenly dialed DR. JR realizes he makes the mistake and hangs up the phone really quick and creates an alibi trying to call DR to get LS into Smallwood.

But he called 2 people, neither of which were DB.

In order to bring DB into the mix here as POI #1 based on a tweet, can someone explain to me how he somehow managed to avoid ever being brought up by anyone having anything to do with this case? The media, Spierers, the PIs...?

Also, I've said this before, but the Tweet as alibi makes zero sense. If you are worried about someone checking an alibi, you would know that a Tweet would not be sufficient in itself -- phone records would easily show where he was and the tweet would not matter. Not to mention that it seems incredibly stupid to invent an 'alibi' that puts you in the town where the crime happened, at a public place, if you were not actually there. Going hypothetically with the 'conspiracy among POIs' scenario where DB is off hiding a body, wouldn't it make more sense to say nothing at all, and if alibi is needed claim they were all together at JR's eating bagels at 11 am?

I'm open to any theory, but I've always felt like it's a pretty big leap to consider this person a POI based on a tweet found by CJ -- a person who was clearly struggling with mental illness and whose other 'clues' in this case amounted to nothing but false information and ridiculous conspiracy theories.

 

[bx2]

In order to bring DB into the mix here as POI #1 based on a tweet, can someone explain to me how he somehow managed to avoid ever being brought up by anyone having anything to do with this case? The media, Spierers, the PIs...?

I think its reasonable to consider him (or anyone that had direct contact with LS that night) a POI. While I do agree that there doesn't seem to be anything known to us that implicates him in more than a hypothetical, I don't know that the lack of mentions means too much. Everyone has been perhaps overly cautious in naming names. I do find it a little odd that the Spierer family hasn't pressed for more information or cooperation from the so-called JR visitors seeing as this had to have come up during their face to face talk with JR.

From the IM articles:

One of Rosenbaum’s attorneys later confirmed to IM that there were in fact “other people around” Rosenbaum’s apartment on the morning in question.

“There were other people around,” an attorney for Rosenbaum tells IM. “And I believe the police have all their names and information.”

I personally don't think DB was a lone out of town visitor, just the only one who has been connected to being around in public.

Also, I've said this before, but the Tweet as alibi makes zero sense. If you are worried about someone checking an alibi, you would know that a Tweet would not be sufficient in itself -- phone records would easily show where he was and the tweet would not matter. Not to mention that it seems incredibly stupid to invent an 'alibi' that puts you in the town where the crime happened, at a public place, if you were not actually there. Going hypothetically with the 'conspiracy among POIs' scenario where DB is off hiding a body, wouldn't it make more sense to say nothing at all, and if alibi is needed claim they were all together at JR's eating bagels at 11 am?

On the same page as you here. I've always just taken the tweet literally and used it as nothing more than to connect one of JR's friends to being in Bloomington that day.

 

[Snapfade]

But he called 2 people, neither of which were DB.

In order to bring DB into the mix here as POI #1 based on a tweet, can someone explain to me how he somehow managed to avoid ever being brought up by anyone having anything to do with this case? The media, Spierers, the PIs...?

Also, I've said this before, but the Tweet as alibi makes zero sense. If you are worried about someone checking an alibi, you would know that a Tweet would not be sufficient in itself -- phone records would easily show where he was and the tweet would not matter. Not to mention that it seems incredibly stupid to invent an 'alibi' that puts you in the town where the crime happened, at a public place, if you were not actually there. Going hypothetically with the 'conspiracy among POIs' scenario where DB is off hiding a body, wouldn't it make more sense to say nothing at all, and if alibi is needed claim they were all together at JR's eating bagels at 11 am?

I'm open to any theory, but I've always felt like it's a pretty big leap to consider this person a POI based on a tweet found by CJ -- a person who was clearly struggling with mental illness and whose other 'clues' in this case amounted to nothing but false information and ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Its not a leap to consider anybody that was potentially at JR's at 4:00 am POI.....But lets face it , unless the BPD releases some additional information about that morning , all we know is LS was last seen on camera heading up the alley behind 10th & college apt. Building... I sometimes wonder if the BPD would rather find Lauren or would rather not have the publicity... I assume LE doesnt name POI's the protect the innocent from being prosecuted by public opinion, yet that could be exactly whats happening..

 

[Ros]

Anyone remember the Monroe rumors? JR's phone supposedly sent some kind of signal and then there was that fire? Was that ever verified or said to be absolutely untrue? That, for me, always worried me too.

I think that the rumor was that JR's phone pinged someplace close to Martinsville around 4 a.m. See reference to this rumor by just a guess posting on Tony Gatto's site on 22 July 2011.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...video-lauren-spierer-was-stumbling-fell-down/

Someone else (on this board) has said that the cell phone records of the PsOI have been consistent with their stories.

There was a fire at an old sawmill in Martinsville about two weeks after LS disappeared. That much has been confirmed. I don't have a subscription to either of these papers so I can't read much except the headlines.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.331715.sto
http://ns.reporter-times.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.qp-5332905.sto

I don't know if that area was ever searched well, e.g. with a metal detector for jewelry.

 

[Ros]

Snipped by me. I've followed this route myself, from Indy to Ann Arbor, before. And being originally from MI, I'd be on this big time if there was some concrete evidence (no pun intended) that DB was involved. But the Runcible Spoon tweet is something, and I myself did see it before it disappeared.

I did check out the West Bloomfield area late that summer, and there was a ton of construction there as well. And there's the Pinckney Recreation area, which he would have passed, which has many, many remote trails and lakes. (Here's a link: http://www.michigan.org/property/pinckney-recreation-area/). There are lakes there that are cold and deep (Half Moon, for example).

But here's the thing: Bringing DB to MI would be risky, too, in that it would really provide a signature. Leaving her body near Indy or somewhere before the MI border would provide for ambiguity in the event that her body was discovered, and I doubt whoever did this could foretell that it wouldn't be. JMO.

I saw the tweet too, before DB made his Twitter stream private.

 

[imkeylime]

But he called 2 people, neither of which were DB.

In order to bring DB into the mix here as POI #1 based on a tweet, can someone explain to me how he somehow managed to avoid ever being brought up by anyone having anything to do with this case? The media, Spierers, the PIs...?

Also, I've said this before, but the Tweet as alibi makes zero sense. If you are worried about someone checking an alibi, you would know that a Tweet would not be sufficient in itself -- phone records would easily show where he was and the tweet would not matter. Not to mention that it seems incredibly stupid to invent an 'alibi' that puts you in the town where the crime happened, at a public place, if you were not actually there. Going hypothetically with the 'conspiracy among POIs' scenario where DB is off hiding a body, wouldn't it make more sense to say nothing at all, and if alibi is needed claim they were all together at JR's eating bagels at 11 am?

I'm open to any theory, but I've always felt like it's a pretty big leap to consider this person a POI based on a tweet found by CJ -- a person who was clearly struggling with mental illness and whose other 'clues' in this case amounted to nothing but false information and ridiculous conspiracy theories.

I agree that LE would have checked out DB's story, which is my main problem with DB as a POI. While I did see the tweet, which would seemingly place him in Bloomington, that doesn't mean he was with JR all night regardless. That's the logical assumption, and one I've made before, but he could have been with someone else and thus has an alibi. Friends can become friends of other friends while visiting colleges ... or maybe he knew others from MI who attended IU. (PS: My son, for example, has three close friends who attends a major northeast university. The three themselves aren't that close, though, so he wouldn't see them together. I do think DB appears close to DB, however.)

 

[Snapfade]

I think that the rumor was that JR's phone pinged someplace close to Martinsville around 4 a.m. See reference to this rumor by just a guess posting on Tony Gatto's site on 22 July 2011.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...video-lauren-spierer-was-stumbling-fell-down/

Someone else (on this board) has said that the cell phone records of the PsOI have been consistent with their stories.

There was a fire at an old sawmill in Martinsville about two weeks after LS disappeared. That much has been confirmed. I don't have a subscription to either of these papers so I can't read much except the headlines.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.331715.sto
http://ns.reporter-times.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.qp-5332905.sto

I don't know if that area was ever searched well, e.g. with a metal detector for jewelry.

I posted the info about the cell records and stories after asking a few questions to a friend a friend that was LE

 

[Snapfade]

I think that the rumor was that JR's phone pinged someplace close to Martinsville around 4 a.m. See reference to this rumor by just a guess posting on Tony Gatto's site on 22 July 2011.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...video-lauren-spierer-was-stumbling-fell-down/

Someone else (on this board) has said that the cell phone records of the PsOI have been consistent with their stories.

There was a fire at an old sawmill in Martinsville about two weeks after LS disappeared. That much has been confirmed. I don't have a subscription to either of these papers so I can't read much except the headlines.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.331715.sto
http://ns.reporter-times.com/stories/2011/06/17/news.qp-5332905.sto

I don't know if that area was ever searched well, e.g. with a metal detector for jewelry.

I posted the info about the cell records and stories after asking a few questions to a friend a friend that was LE in bloomington at that time. He also told me about one of the.dogs tracking to JW's back door.. However I miss understood him and thought the tracking started at 5N , when it really started at SW. So thats a path she had taken to JW's previously , not that night.
Keep in mind that I was not interviewing him. I was asking a few casual yet probing question when we spoke. He thought all the 5N guys to be telling the truth and innocent because all their stories checked out , even after trying to trick them up. All their cell records matched their stories. He said at a great expense of near $100,000 , that all calls were investigated for several towers for week before and weeks after and the POI seem to be telling the truth. It was his opinion, at that time, that it was a random abuction, probably by a "local nut job".

 

[AbbeyR]

I'm not saying the Tweet didn't exist -- I saw it too.

I'm just saying there is no evidence at all that DB being at the Runcible Spoon makes him POI #1.

I find it very surprising that LE would give out information about the case to someone just because they are asking questions.

Also, even if it's true, cell phones "matching their stories" doesn't mean much, since we could assume if someone was taking Lauren somewhere they might leave their cell phone(s) at home.

 

[Darcyline]

Also, even if it's true, cell phones "matching their stories" doesn't mean much, since we could assume if someone was taking Lauren somewhere they might leave there cell phone at home.

Or even that she wasn't taken far enough for the cells to ping in a weird place. Or they dumped her body in a dumpster and got lucky. I am still not entirely convinced that angle is cleared.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Oh crap. I didn't mean to start something here or to prosecute anyone publicly. Did I do that? I'm sorry, because probably I did, but when I said that I had just talked myself into seeing DB as the guy I really meant it in a self deprecating way. As in, look at the tear I just went on, and how goofy am I, kind of thing. I guess that's impossible to come through in writing.

BUT, I wasn't basing any theory from a tweet. I was just basing a theory on a him being there. I was just running through a scenario like I assumed we are supposed to do here but I wasn't trying to be unfair. I was assuming putting the theory out there would result in counter theories and the pointing out of holes in the theory which seems to be what happened, and everyone has made good points. I really had no intent in creating rumor or being unfair to an innocent person but again he was there so I'm not sure of how else to run down theories with the exception of noting that I can, should and will be more aware and careful of how I word things.

Anyway, I have more reading to do on these latest posts but so far I'm seeing really good points to consider, especially the point that there may have been other visitors at JRs as well.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Or even that she wasn't taken far enough for the cells to ping in a weird place. Or they dumped her body in a dumpster and got lucky. I am still not entirely convinced that angle is cleared.

Assuming there were cadaver dogs used how do some of the above theories reconcile the dogs not making a hit? Or if the dogs did why isn't someone being charged?

There were some dogs that hit around the 5N dumpsters but I think it was an independent search and not LE dogs and I guess not considered credible. Or their handler isn't seen as credible. I'm not sure which. I listened to the handlers account and seemed legit but I don't know enough about the subject or the handler to know with any degree if certainty.

 

[Snapfade]

I'm not saying the Tweet didn't exist -- I saw it too.

I'm just saying there is no evidence at all that DB being at the Runcible Spoon makes him POI #1.

I find it very surprising that LE would give out information about the case to someone just because they are asking questions.

Also, even if it's true, cell phones "matching their stories" doesn't mean much, since we could assume if someone was taking Lauren somewhere they might leave their cell

Like I said it eas not an interview or release of information. It was one friend to another who probably should not have repeated anything. And I probably wouldnt have if he still worked in Indiana. Agree that cell.tracking would not prove innocent but they certainly could trap any lying thats going on... Jmo