IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[VeryVeritas]

Agreed, great question. Isn't the only thing known about the other caller that she watched the BB game with him at Smallwood?

I don't think there's any way to conclusively say the second call wasn't to DB based on what has been released on it.

Wasn't the BB watched at JR's at 5N around 12:30 and not at SW?

 

[VeryVeritas]

The most important question to me about the roommates and possibility of an out of town visitor is: What / whose cars were around that night that JR (and/or the other POI) may have had access to. Were they all searched?

For ex., Did the roommates all leave for the summer with their cars? When I was away at school, there was at least one summer I left my car there because I worked at a summer camp during the entire break. My roommates who stayed in town had a spare set of keys.

We have heard that JR's car was in the shop. Whether he had access to another car could rule out (/in) a lot of possibilities.

Maybe JR / DB and ? had access to more than one vehicle to create further ambiguity. If LE ever tracked all of these vehicles down it was probably long after the fact. I also would not be surprised if JR alone had a second vehicle around of his own. If you have a bottomless pit of money, you might have a lot more than spare keys and spare cars around.

 

[bx2]

I thought LS watched NBA game at 5N not Smallwood. Wasnt it at 5N where tge booze ran out..?

That's my understanding too... they were watching the game at 5N around 12:30 and after that CR and LS headed to Kilroy's. So this report seems to be in conflict.

Wasn't the BB watched at JR's at 5N around 12:30 and not at SW?

linking Lohud article-

She started the night of June 2 hanging out at Smallwood, drinking wine with friends watching the NBA playoffs….Spierer and Rohn arrived at Rosenbaum’s party shortly after midnight….Rosenbaum, who recalled taking six to 10 shots of Belvedere vodka, said the hard alcohol was gone by the time Spierer arrived, though there was still beer.

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree that I wish he continued to be as forthcoming as he possibly? was before hiring an attorney, but I find all of the behavior after that consistent with what a high profile lawyer would advise.

I'm pretty sure the only people to describe JR as 'forthcoming' have been his own lawyers

I don't agree that his actions are consistent with what any high profile lawyer would advise. A lawyer will prevent you from actions if there is a risk you will incriminate yourself, yes. There is no blanket rule that you shouldn't cooperate with an investigation though.

 

[akh]

So? After the body is long gone and there is no trace of anything, you have the best Lawyer money can buy, there is zero evidence and you can lie through your teeth and move on with your life regardless, exactly what does this prove? Talking with the Spierers is not the same as being interrogated by LE, and taking an LE administered polygraph immediately after.

\

Yes but people can't have it both ways. You can't condemn him for not meeting with them and then condemn him for meeting with them at the same time.

Or look at this differently- Assume for a second he's innocent in her disappearance but obviously someone LE is skeptical of and the closest thing to a suspect LE has (if nothing else then by putting himself as the last to see her). How would his actions be any different?

I'm curious akh, What is your theory?

For as little as we actually know for certain I'm fairly wide open to several possibilities.

A: Some or all of 5N are involved and a dumpster still seems to me to be a likely possibility for body disposal.

B: Boyfriend. Whether she could've walked to his house or he ended up spying on her and intercepted her leaving 5N. Both seem possible. Then jealousy and rage get added to the picture.


C: Someone involved in the SW confrontation. Jilted, wannabe suitor or someone feeling they are owed something. Factor in possibly following or lying in wait... or simply a coincidental meeting as she left JR's and paths crossed. IMHO we know way too little about the confrontation at Smallwood to relegate it's significance in the evening as coincidental.


Since the 5N bunch has put themselves squarely in the sights of LE by their own admission of being the last known to see her and yet LE doesn't seem to have been able to break apart their stories I'm surprised B or C doesn't get more consideration than they seem to.

The confrontation at Smallwood seems like an awfully important point to get overlooked. Either you'd think we'd know all about it because the details are deemed not important and simply coincidental or else it's kept quiet because it's just another piece of the puzzle that doesn't exactly want to fit and LE doesn't know what to make of it so it's kept quiet (in hopes future evidence will be more enlightening).

I'm not going to get too hung up on her condition leaving JR's (shoeless and possibly wasted, staggering or not) because if he said she left, and she really did walk out of there, then those things really don't mean anything.

 

[Ixchel13]

We obvioulsy continue to struggle even discussing theories, because the different types of informations (or lack thereof) that we have. I my eyes there are 3 categories of information:
1. What we've been allowed to know: This is basically our facts that we have to work with from MSM, LE, PIs and the Spierers. While we view this information on this forum as FACT, it may not be. For example, it may be HT's version of what JR told her, with her embellishments or omissions. Even LE and MSM, provide information that we take as fact, however, a simple omission may lead our theories down a path missing the 'facts' of what really happened (the last video sighting, clearly there was something LE withheld).
2. What LE knows for fact, that we do not: Someone a few pages back created a great list of questions, most of which LE should, and most likely, knows. Cell phone pings/records, statements from the POIs, cars searched, polygraphs...this is hard facts and evidence, that LE cannot share....but it's the 'glue' to the crumbs of information we have that would help us with our theories.
3. What is NOT being said: This one is the one that concerns me in this case. I'm not much of a theorizer, I tend to wait for fact, so while I don't post as much, I don't miss a post...in this case or the others that I follow....I appreciate what everyone has to say, think, and the passion here...so thank you all! But, there is something missing on this case that EVERY other case I've followed has had....an insider, someone close to the scene, someone who knows these people, a friend, a family member. I truly appeciate our Bloomington locals, but I don't know if any you are 'close' to this group. There is so much more to know about these people, their intentions, their personalities, actions leading up to that night, the Indy 500....I know WS will verify these folks, but it seems that after a year and a half, still not much is being said. Leads me to believe either this group was very isolated that night, no one cares to get involved, or that they fear some sort repercussions. I don't believe they were isolated and I don't believe that people don't care...so what the hell is going on? The others that were at INdy? The folks at SW that were initially with LS?? The other guys in the hall at SW with ZO?? Others that were at Kilroys?? Others in the alley that night....there's a LOT of housing around the alley...no one else saw anything, but found her wallet/keys in the dark? Others at or around 5N, visitors, neighbors, etc?

I find this very odd that there is not more 'talk' that would leak to the public about the events leading upto, during and after that night.

All this ^ and yes, lots of weird unmarried guys here. I think the ratio here is something like 2.5 woman to man so guys can be pushy. I'm not verified local but indeed am a local of Bloomington.
Had a thought--what if everyone is guilty!? Guilty of doping LS up and letting her get away, to that other 25% possibility of abduction by stranger.
She could have been slipped something by HT at either JR's earlier or back at the apartment right before Lauren left for Kilroys. MB could have supplied the drug to HT he got from JR via DB. IMO MOO. MB has been found to have a relationship with the other roommate of Lauren;s I think Wallach.
Someone was right--what happened at the 500? Did the roommates get a crush on the same guy? CR and Lauren could have been drugged by the other girls as well. Just saying, it seems weird we're always talking about this night and these guys as if no ladies were present.
My best friend in high school was only 4'11 and didn't weigh 100 #.
She couldn't imbibe what I or others did and had to be monitored at all times after one very scary incident and we took her for help. These roommates knew Laurens capacity.
It shows her walking down the hallway, happy. Someone is with her
and they usually don't talk about who this is. DR? What I'm saying. IMO, what if she has just been slipped something at her own apartment? Now, when they
get to Kilroys, they start feeling this. They head back up the street and maybe attempt to go back up to Lauren's apt.
Who riled these boys up to punch CR? Someone had to tell them LS was w. CR. DR could have been texting back and forth w. HT and BW from Kilroys.
Did someone hide Laurens shoes and cellphone at Kilroys so she couldn't defend herself via texting with JW or anyone else for that matter. A jealous, vicious set up that ended up with their victim disappearing.just a theory, one of many.

 

[VeryVeritas]

linking Lohud article-

I know I had seen articles that said she went to JR's to watch BB. From this article it is not clear if it was watched at SW, JR's or both. DR was there in both places correct? Perhaps DB was as well?

 

[VeryVeritas]

All this ^ and yes, lots of weird unmarried guys here. I think the ratio here is something like 2.5 woman to man so guys can be pushy. I'm not verified local but indeed am a local of Bloomington.
Had a thought--what if everyone is guilty!? Guilty of doping LS up and letting her get away, to that other 25% possibility of abduction by stranger.
She could have been slipped something by HT at either JR's earlier or back at the apartment right before Lauren left for Kilroys. MB could have supplied the drug to HT he got from JR via DB. IMO MOO. MB has been found to have a relationship with the other roommate of Lauren;s I think Wallach.
Someone was right--what happened at the 500? Did the roommates get a crush on the same guy? CR and Lauren could have been drugged by the other girls as well. Just saying, it seems weird we're always talking about this night and these guys as if no ladies were present.
My best friend in high school was only 4'11 and didn't weigh 100 #.
She couldn't imbibe what I or others did and had to be monitored at all times after one very scary incident and we took her for help. These roommates knew Laurens capacity.
It shows her walking down the hallway, happy. Someone is with her
and they usually don't talk about who this is. DR? What I'm saying. IMO, what if she has just been slipped something at her own apartment? Now, when they
get to Kilroys, they start feeling this. They head back up the street and maybe attempt to go back up to Lauren's apt.
Who riled these boys up to punch CR? Someone had to tell them LS was w. CR. DR could have been texting back and forth w. HT and BW from Kilroys.
Did someone hide Laurens shoes and cellphone at Kilroys so she couldn't defend herself via texting with JW or anyone else for that matter. A jealous, vicious set up that ended up with their victim disappearing.just a theory, one of many.

It's not likely that everyone was out to get her. Though, I've witnessed first hand people trying to get other people FU'd as though being hospitable hosts and comrades. So, out of what you say, it is likely that she was offered more than one thing during the night, as well as being slipped something. Sure machiavellian motivations are possible, but haven't seen anything to point to that. Random stranger abduction is no way 25% chance. it's more like .0025% chance.

 

[VeryVeritas]

\

Yes but people can't have it both ways. You can't condemn him for not meeting with them and then condemn him for meeting with them at the same time.

Or look at this differently- Assume for a second he's innocent in her disappearance but obviously someone LE is skeptical of and the closest thing to a suspect LE has (if nothing else then by putting himself as the last to see her). How would his actions be any different?



For as little as we actually know for certain I'm fairly wide open to several possibilities.

A: Some or all of 5N are involved and a dumpster still seems to me to be a likely possibility for body disposal.

B: Boyfriend. Whether she could've walked to his house or he ended up spying on her and intercepted her leaving 5N. Both seem possible. Then jealousy and rage get added to the picture.


C: Someone involved in the SW confrontation. Jilted, wannabe suitor or someone feeling they are owed something. Factor in possibly following or lying in wait... or simply a coincidental meeting as she left JR's and paths crossed. IMHO we know way too little about the confrontation at Smallwood to relegate it's significance in the evening as coincidental.


Since the 5N bunch has put themselves squarely in the sights of LE by their own admission of being the last known to see her and yet LE doesn't seem to have been able to break apart their stories I'm surprised B or C doesn't get more consideration than they seem to.

The confrontation at Smallwood seems like an awfully important point to get overlooked. Either you'd think we'd know all about it because the details are deemed not important and simply coincidental or else it's kept quiet because it's just another piece of the puzzle that doesn't exactly want to fit and LE doesn't know what to make of it so it's kept quiet (in hopes future evidence will be more enlightening).

I'm not going to get too hung up on her condition leaving JR's (shoeless and possibly wasted, staggering or not) because if he said she left, and she really did walk out of there, then those things really don't mean anything.

Yes, I can have it both ways. Not initially cooperating and escaping LE polygraph and interrogation is entirely different than first being able to meet with a hire powered lawyer who tells you exactly what to do and say when meeting with the Spierers. If you don't see the difference, I can't help you further.

 

[akh]

All we know is, at least according to various reports, he didn't take a police polygraph. Honestly, at this point I don't even know that we can safely say we 'know' even that.

Everything else you just said is your own speculation with embellishment using words like 'escape' and 'high powered lawyer' to strengthen your theory and close your mind to other possibilities.

 

[Skigirl]

But then JR ultimately did meet with the parents.

AKH, Do you have a source handy? I remember him saying he had told them things that a reporter was asking but her parents at the time said he had never agreed to speak with them.

 

[Ros]

AKH, Do you have a source handy? I remember him saying he had told them things that a reporter was asking but her parents at the time said he had never agreed to speak with them.

JR met with RS and CS in September of 2011 at his attorneys' office. The Spierer's attorneys were present too.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/11/02/news.qp-2066967.sto

 

[Ros]

Yeah, people laughed when I suggested the Gators - I meant down south. You can drive from bloomington to gator swamps in about 15-16 hrs, and of course a gazillion rivers and lakes in between. So you are right. It's not safe to assume it was along the way back home. There was a group of 4 people last year that hacked up a woman in Ohio and then dumped the pieces in Northern Kentucky. There is another very small blond girl missing there Paige Johnson. The case seems unrelated, but it does look like someone chose the hilly wooded terrain with rivers and lakes of Northern Kentucky to ditch her as well - no body ever found. It seems West Virginia which is maybe 5-6 hrs from bloomington is even more hilly and dense with trees and rivers.

You don't have to go all the way to West Virginia to find a place that is hilly, seclude and dense with trees. Yellowwood or Morgan-Monroes State Forests are close enough.

 

[Ros]

All we know is, at least according to various reports, he didn't take a police polygraph. Honestly, at this point I don't even know that we can safely say we 'know' even that.

Everything else you just said is your own speculation with embellishment using words like 'escape' and 'high powered lawyer' to strengthen your theory and close your mind to other possibilities.

I can understand that one might not want to take a policy polygraph. You might get hit with a question similar to "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

 

[VeryVeritas]

You don't have to go all the way to West Virginia to find a place that is hilly, seclude and dense with trees. Yellowwood or Morgan-Monroes State Forests are close enough.

So true, and bodies of water abound, and caves and quarries.

Yet, however few people are still looking for her in Indiana, fewer are looking for her out of the state.

Remember in the Caylee Anthony case, it took almost 6 months to find a body that was very close by and out in the open. I'm amazed at both by the number of people who are never found, AND by the flukes which occur where a bone or body is found.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I can understand that one might not want to take a policy polygraph. You might get hit with a question similar to "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

the point of a polygraph is to see if someone is lying and get an idea of what is going on. If they asked a rhetorical question like that, a person could object and simply say, we never fought, or there was no violence... and then the polygraph would indicate LIE or NO LIE.

It's true LE does TRICK the truth out of people. And the TRUTH is what we need here.

 

[Ixchel13]

It's not likely that everyone was out to get her. Though, I've witnessed first hand people trying to get other people FU'd as though being hospitable hosts and comrades. So, out of what you say, it is likely that she was offered more than one thing during the night, as well as being slipped something. Sure machiavellian motivations are possible, but haven't seen anything to point to that. Random stranger abduction is no way 25% chance. it's more like .0025% chance.

VV, you have very logical, strong opinions and get support from people.
Try to be a little more respectful when you disagree. By saying 25%, I actually think that's a good chance. In the 2.5-3 block square radius from where she disappeared, there are 5 or 6 half way houses and group homes for sexual offenders and drug addicts.One of them, Amethyst House, islocated right across from the turn in to that alley leading to House Bar. Anyone looking out of the west windows there could also see LS turn the corner towards SW. Not blaming anyone there, IMO When you add the XX rated videos and sex toy shops (2) and the late night lingerie modelling club to the mix in the same exact area, there is a possibility that someone was there right when she was, just like Mickey. Not going after that seedy night
life for suspects is a mystery, maybe they are. See, not accusing the kids at the House Bar, it's that I'm wondering if any regular weirdos stopped in there. since they're so close to both the sex clubs and the half-way houses, maybe they have seen people casing the alley leading to the back patio. If
I were a desperate junkie I could wait for these privileged kids to score dope and then mug them right in the alley, or just figure they had money/dope on them anyway. Also, if I were a would be abductor I could watch these alleys for a lone victim.
so IMO if I were a detective I would get a list of men staying there
and the other places although I'm sure they already have. I looked up the area on Neighborhood Watch and it was literally peppered with sex offenders.
So yes, everything points to the friends, thus the 75%, but you cannot convince me that it's a done deal. Because they at the very least abandoned her.

 

[sammi89]

Several times, I think. I don't have time to get the links, but:

There was the 'find lauren' video, that had the names and photos of the key POI; the time that they gave an interview that basically said that they didn't think some of the POI had anything to do with Lauren's disappearance, but were looking for answers from others. (This is the one where the article implied they had 'cleared' people, and LE jumped in to say no one was cleared); Their Private investigator was interviewed for the Lohud video and drew attention to inconsistencies mostly in JR, CR and MB's stories (and also mentioned JW); The Spierers seem to have consistently asked for answers from these same people. They have especially expressed dissatisfaction with the lack of cooperation from JR and CR.
Neither they, nor the PI's have ever (as far as I know) mentioned or talked about wanting answers from this out of town visitor.

That's my impression, anyway.

So, I'm not saying it isn't possible that DB was around that night or may even be a POI - You're right that there were other Persons of Interest (like DR) who were considered such because they were with Lauren at some point that night and sure, he could be one of those people. But I think it's unlikely that if he were really around in those final hours, that he wouldn't be included in anyone's story, and no one would have figured this out.

All we can do is weigh out the evidence we do have, and I think that pretty consistently points to the involvement of the POI we know about, who have stories that don't add up, and also happen to have gotten lawyers right away and refuse to give LE polygraphs.

MOO.

Points well taken. However, maybe to clarify what I was trying to get at and what may not have been clear:

A)
POI that have consistently been named: JR, CR, JW, MB
DR & ZO have been named officially (although, admittedly not sure if ZO was actually named by Spierers/LE and was named only by media)
HOWEVER, I've noticed that sometimes they do NOT name when talking about specific actions ("I think you're talking about the boy who has refused to cooperate") and have remained ambiguous.

B)
I'm not sure if LE ever gave a firm number of POI. Rather, it seemed anyway, the list seemed to be on the longer end, and was changing day to day.



I can easily picture a situation where someone like DB could be visiting and between the multiple venues (5N, Smallwood, Kilroy's) that people might be aware that DB was present, but not really know/remember much else.

Honestly, the night seemed to have LS involved in a couple different groups. That makes me think that there were probably other parties happening that night too. Like, what was HT doing? What happened to the rest of the group that LS had been watching the BBall game with at Smallwood? Was watching the game at his place with roomies, or was that also a small gathering? Was ZO & co heading somewhere to party?

I just think there could be a lot of people that were present during the night and it's hard to keep track of.

However, it DID make it into people's stories that JR had a friend from his hometown visiting. In fact, it was HT's story. The lawyers of other POI have also at least insinuated that this is factual (comments acknowledging others were present at JR's) and to my knowledge, no one has denied that a visitor fitting this description was present.

I think it's fair to guess that it was likely DB simply because of his tweet placing him in the city and the clearly close relationship DB has with JR.

I bolded the "I think" in your statement because personally, I disagree. I think it is just as likely that he may have been there and, if involved, I can definitely see the boys having an interest in not wanting to explicitly place him there during those final hours. Who would be able to place him at JR's during those final hours? LS, JR, CR, and MB. One is missing and the other three are well-known POI.

I can also see him NOT being officially named because there is nothing out there (to my knowledge) that ever officially puts him into the timeline of the night. DR started the night with LS during those final important hours (I also believe he is the one who HAS satisfied the Spierer's inquiries ), ZO was on video during the altercation, CR was caught on video with her several times, MB placed himself in the timeline by saying LS assisted in placing CR to bed, & JR admitted to seeing her off.

I can DEFINITELY see how DB could be an unnamed POI. For example, JR could claim that he has no idea what DB was up to at the time OR JR could refuse to give out names (Idk the legalities of that though - can he be forced to hand over names?). Regardless, that could explain some of what the Spierers are upset about. They could have questions like, "WHO was at your party and WHAT were they doing during these important hours?" The Spierers could rightfully be skeptical because he probably would know what his friends were up to. Maybe not at the time, but he almost surely would have found out later.

Of course, a counter argument would be that JR was told or knew they were doing something that had nothing to do with LS and feels no need to share that information. That's a fair take, imo, too.



All I'm trying to say is that it seems more likely than not that DB was visiting JR. While it is certainly possible he wasn't, it just seems, given that DB is close with JR and they had plans to launch a company together (and usually, that doesn't happen overnight --> were plans forming then?) and that DB is also friends with MB. Both MB and JR live in 5N. People close to JR have been printed in media stating JR had visitors from his hometown. JR has NOT denied this (likewise, no statements from DB have ever been issued denying being there).


As for not wanting information from an out of town visitor, they've stated that only ONE friend has come forward. They do not believe JR or CR have been forthcoming or honest. One of the biggest problems in this case has been a lack of information. IMO, part of that could be they have not been forthcoming about who was present when.

 

[sammi89]

VV, you have very logical, strong opinions and get support from people.
Try to be a little more respectful when you disagree. By saying 25%, I actually think that's a good chance. In the 2.5-3 block square radius from where she disappeared, there are 5 or 6 half way houses and group homes for sexual offenders and drug addicts.One of them, Amethyst House, islocated right across from the turn in to that alley leading to House Bar. Anyone looking out of the west windows there could also see LS turn the corner towards SW. Not blaming anyone there, IMO When you add the XX rated videos and sex toy shops (2) and the late night lingerie modelling club to the mix in the same exact area, there is a possibility that someone was there right when she was, just like Mickey. Not going after that seedy night
life for suspects is a mystery, maybe they are. See, not accusing the kids at the House Bar, it's that I'm wondering if any regular weirdos stopped in there. since they're so close to both the sex clubs and the half-way houses, maybe they have seen people casing the alley leading to the back patio. If
I were a desperate junkie I could wait for these privileged kids to score dope and then mug them right in the alley, or just figure they had money/dope on them anyway. Also, if I were a would be abductor I could watch these alleys for a lone victim.
so IMO if I were a detective I would get a list of men staying there
and the other places although I'm sure they already have. I looked up the area on Neighborhood Watch and it was literally peppered with sex offenders.
So yes, everything points to the friends, thus the 75%, but you cannot convince me that it's a done deal. Because they at the very least abandoned her.

I definitely agree that this could have been completely random. I think it's less likely, but definitely should not be ruled out. Are there cameras in the vicinity of that area at all?

I agree - hopefully LE or the PI checked out that information.

 

[VeryVeritas]

CLUE: The Calls and conversation that didn't happen.

If you were JR (and taking what you know he observed, said and did up until 4:30 am that night) After supposedly watching LS barefoot it towards N. College from his narrow balcony, what would you do next, and what should have been the last thing you said to LS?