IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[ted]

Very good theory. You mentioned that you were surprised that they went back to LSs at SW first. Didn't DR also live at SW? If so they could have been going to DRs.

 

[ted]

I have often thought about that. I really think a rape/sexual assault scenario would have two possible scenarios:
1) Stemming from a planned sexual assault (spiking her drink); or
2) LS willingly took some combination of drugs and these boys took advantage of her.

I think 2 possible outcomes are possible:
1) ONE of these boys planned to do it; or
2) This was a gang rape scenario where all the boys are involved. The one qualifier though is that I think it is plausible that one of JR OR DB might not have initially been involved but would have assisted in a cover up if their start-up business partner was worth the risk to them. Unlikely but possible.

Personally, I DO think this started with her drink being spiked and some level of awareness on all parties. I think she presented very obvious symptoms that are on par with date rape drugs (although, again, they are also common with other drugs, including alcohol alone):


drowsiness or light-headedness
difficulty concentrating
feeling confused or disorientated, particularly after waking up (if you have been asleep)
difficulty speaking, or slurring your words
loss of balance and finding it hard to move
lowered inhibitions
paranoia (a feeling of fear or distrust of others)
amnesia (memory loss) or a "black-out" of events (when you can't remember large sections of your evening)
temporary loss of body sensation (feeling like you are floating above your body, or having an "out of body" experience)
visual problems, particularly blurred vision
hallucinations (seeing, hearing or touching things that aren't there)
nausea and vomiting
unconsciousness

Date rape drugs also work quickly.
"within 20 minutes of being taken"

They can have some serious, scary symptoms that might even spook the one who gave the victim the spiked drink:
convulsions
loss of consciousness
loss of coordination
potentially fatal respiratory failure
seizures
coma, death

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Drink-spiking/Pages/Symptoms.aspx
http://www.idph.state.il.us/about/womenshealth/factsheets/date.htm

oh, and remember that really disturbing rumor of LS foaming at the mouth? Not too uncommon with GHB. If you Google it, you'll see a lot of personal accounts with people have foamed at the mouth after ingesting GHB. Although that is disturbing, I think it would be a disservice not to mention that some people DO take GHB willingly so even though LS presented symptoms of this sort of drug, it doesn't make it 100% certain she took it unwittingly (although I personally find that unlikely due to the effects on the respiratory system). Here's an article from what appears to be a legitimate source about a girl who is believed to have been drugged.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nort...s-warning-to-guard-your-glass-72703-19839294/



Just curious, those who think that there was an a sexual assault beyond anything drug-related, are you of the theory that this was a case of gang rape? I've been doing some basic Google searches and although I could find a lot of statistics on rape itself, it seemed that there wasn't much out there on gang rapes in college?

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/college_campuses_and_rape.htm


I DO think this might have began with a spiked drink situation. They weren't at the bar very long, but they were there long enough that the effects should have started happening. From the link above, I was shocked to see that the victim's residence is used predominantly, but that actually fits given that they attempted to go back to LS' place first.

If true, I highly doubt murder was planned.

If her drink was spiked, that would be in line with her symptoms AND what her friends/parents have said --> LS did NOT do hard drugs. It also fits with the idea that LS would be unlikely to use harder drugs given that she KNEW she had a potentially serious health condition.

However, I still think, for others to be involved, that it would have to move beyond CR and somehow involve MB and AT LEAST DB or JR. That could be done in a couple different scenarios:

1. CR spikes drink. CR initially tries to take her home, has a run-in with boys who either a) recognize how badly off she is, b) recognize the symptoms, and/or c) CR has a reputation for this and these boys know it. They tell him to take her home, he mouths off, fight and drama ensue, and CR decides to peace out rather than deal with potential security/police when he has a very incoherent, not-21-yet LS that may or may not have had her drink spiked.

2. Some kind of sexual assaults happens.

- CR does it: (MB is aware that CR spiked her drink and now he has brought her home). LS becomes worse. He goes to get MB for help. MB goes to JR's because it is late, LS is in bad shape, and he doesn't necessarily want to involve LE. JR, who has DB over, and they argue about calling police because they are culpable in some way too (maybe they provided CR with the drug.). For whatever reason, they decide not to call or she dies in the process, leaving them with a body and rape evidence.

-MB does it: CR really was put to bed. Same scenario, minus CR. CR will go along with their decisions because he created the situation.

- MB/CR AND JR/DB - same scenario, just JR/DB are more culpable.

- MB/CR/JR/DB - all equally culpable.


Definitely leaves evidence. All would be culpable (to different degrees) if a situation presented itself where some provided drugs, some assaulted her, and all decided to not call for help.



I'm not sure if I necessarily think a sexual assault is totally necessary though. I think intent would suffice, regardless if it happened or not. For example:

DB visits. He brings the drugs with him.
JR and DB are talking to CR & CR buys then with both of them present. They are aware of what he is likely to use it for. Maybe they don't know it is for LS specifically, but whatever. There it is.
CR mentions it to MB.

As I've said before, I can definitely see the panic if she were to die during something like that. If you haven't, look up "Joey Upshaw"
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/upshaw-329167-joey-students.html

Fraternity Brother at OSU. Took GHB VOLUNTARILY at a frat party and showed symptoms very similar to LS, crashing into walls, unable to talk or walk, lips turning blue. They put him to bed to "sleep it off." When they realized something was wrong, they argued about calling the police because they were scared. They did, eventually, but he died. The tragedy? Had they called earlier, he might be alive today.

I see no reason to think that LS differs much in that respect. I think it is very questionable whether her behavior was due to drugs she voluntarily or involuntarily took (although, at least some were of her own choices, such as alcohol, I wouldn't argue that point).

I think it is certainly possible, and her behavior definitely makes me think she might have had something slipped into her drink, I'm not sure if it was even possible to progress to that point, depending on if she passed on before, or they recognized that she was reallyyyyyy badly off.


I really do wonder if there was a reputation/rumors about one or several of them spiking drinks because THAT is something I can see JW thinking, "omg, this might be really bad. I need to report her missing ASAP." It would explain why everyone was so worried very early on after a night of partying where it wouldn't be unheard of to lose your phone or sleep elsewhere (I do draw the line at her shoes ---> I think that IS extremely abnormal, even drunk. Maybe if she had had heels on and her feet hurt, but they were flats, right?)

Very good theory. You mentioned that you were surprised that they went back to LSs at SW first. Didn't DR also live at SW? If so they could have been going to DRs.

 

[VeryVeritas]

CLUE: The Calls and conversation that didn't happen.

If you were JR (and taking what you know he observed, said and did up until 4:30 am that night) After supposedly watching LS barefoot it towards N. College from his narrow balcony, what would you do next, and what should have been the last thing you said to LS?

After polling people, the answers that I got where similar.

1) Why did JR NOT tell LS to call him when she got back to SW?
He made a point to say that she had her SW keycard, so she would not need to call anyone to gain entry to the building, but would need entry to her apt.
So if he had told her to call him, and then she didn't call, he should have then started calling to find out what happened right away. Starting with HT, LS's roommate. But, no such calls occurred. Then he would have discovered that she didn't make it and could have called 911.

If JR had done the right thing and walked her home, none of this would have been necessary. But he couldn't walk her home if she were dead. He certainly could have waited the 10 minutes it would have taken for her to make it back to SW to call him to let him know she made it ok. Remember, he painted the picture of caring about her condition, giving her the walking test before letting her leave, and noticing her injuries. He then makes his caring continue by watching her from his tiny balcony... but then... he just goes to bed? No, not consistent. The Natural completion of this, and I know people of all ages that do this, is to ask the person to call and confirm that they made it home safely. Remember, JR also said that SHE made the calls from his place so he knows she is capable of using a phone.
He did not ask her to call, because this story of her leaving this way was a lie. He came up with all of this "caring" to increase the believability that she indeed was capable of leaving to get himself off the hook. Only, he did not think his story through far enough. If he did tell LE that he asked her to call. Then he would have to answer why he did nothing when she didn't call. He did nothing, because he didn't ask her to call, because she didn't leave that way. Now if he was more laissez-faire about letting her come and go as she pleased, he wouldn't have bothered with a "walk test", watching her from the balcony, etc... You see, he claims to be paying attention, to caring, to being a good friend. But there is NO request for her to call him, and NO follow up on that. That breaks his story.

2) Along with the 2 calls at 4:15 JR attributes to LS, why would LS not call HT to let her know that she was coming back in a few minutes and would need to get into the apartment? This also would be normal behavior so one is not standing in a hallway banging on a door at 4:30, or having to disturb someone else for entry. But this call didn't happen either.

3) LS never thinks of calling JW. This is also a bit strange. It's my understanding that she had tentative plans to meet up with JW later that night. It's not clear what attempts were made by him to call her, but he did claim to fall asleep. At the same time, if she knew that she has been without her phone for an extended period of time, and she has a pattern of texting or calling him at night, before bed, or even calling him to come over one might expect a call to JW to say she lost her phone, was headed back home, etc... But she makes no call to JW.

4) In fact, of all the people LS should be calling (#1 her own phone, #2 HT or someone at SW that could let her into her apt., #3 JW, etc...) She is instead calling people that who do not make sense. She calls Mr. POI, and DR??
This points to her NOT making those Calls. And if she didn't make the calls, WHY were these calls made?

5) This next missing call is also not so terribly strange. If she were as alert and able to walk as JR says, and was able to dial a phone, she also would be quite aware that she was injured and it would be hurting. Had she gone to the bathroom (how could a girl not go to the bathroom?) and looked into the mirror and felt the pain of the injuries, she may have felt like she should call someone and let them know she was hurt.
Who would be on this list of people to call? I don't see how DR would be on that list. Her sister would more likely be on that list than DR.

 

[VeryVeritas]

VV, you have very logical, strong opinions and get support from people.
Try to be a little more respectful when you disagree. By saying 25%, I actually think that's a good chance. In the 2.5-3 block square radius from where she disappeared, there are 5 or 6 half way houses and group homes for sexual offenders and drug addicts.One of them, Amethyst House, islocated right across from the turn in to that alley leading to House Bar. Anyone looking out of the west windows there could also see LS turn the corner towards SW. Not blaming anyone there, IMO When you add the XX rated videos and sex toy shops (2) and the late night lingerie modelling club to the mix in the same exact area, there is a possibility that someone was there right when she was, just like Mickey. Not going after that seedy night
life for suspects is a mystery, maybe they are. See, not accusing the kids at the House Bar, it's that I'm wondering if any regular weirdos stopped in there. since they're so close to both the sex clubs and the half-way houses, maybe they have seen people casing the alley leading to the back patio. If
I were a desperate junkie I could wait for these privileged kids to score dope and then mug them right in the alley, or just figure they had money/dope on them anyway. Also, if I were a would be abductor I could watch these alleys for a lone victim.
so IMO if I were a detective I would get a list of men staying there
and the other places although I'm sure they already have. I looked up the area on Neighborhood Watch and it was literally peppered with sex offenders.
So yes, everything points to the friends, thus the 75%, but you cannot convince me that it's a done deal. Because they at the very least abandoned her.

Please poke holes in theories, this is how we get closer to substance.

First of all Random Stranger abduction is Rare, it's not 25%. In this case, there is a very small window of opportunity decreasing those already small odds to something on the order of less than 1 in 10,000.

But of course there are 320 million people in the USA so that does leave it as a possibility, it DOES happen. Now the type of perps you are suggesting seem to fall into 2 categories. 1) Street thugs and 2) Kidnapper Sex offenders / Serial Killers

For category 1) Street Thugs they rarely go to great lengths to dispose of a body. If someone mugged her, like if this were an alley in El Paso, Sunset Strip or 45th St. in Chicago... they would just fling her into a ditch or leave her right there. Someone looking to score a quick fix, is very much focused on the fix, and not spending protracted amounts of time hiding bodies.

For category 2) Sex Offenders, then you open up a whole other can of worms. There are those that rape'm and ditch'm much like a junkie needing a fix. As rare as this behavior is, and as small of a window that existed, the bodies are usually discovered. And there is usually a pattern that LE follows for these sorts of things. The more calculating abductor, who is watching and waiting for such an opportunity, who might keep her as a sex slave, rape or kill and then very carefully dispose of the body, is exceedingly rare. Unfortunately not as rare was winning the powerball. Odds are on the order of 1 in 3 Million.

when comparing the odds of the likelihood of these events against the inconsistent stories of those at 5N, and her known condition (including the last video footage of her falling face down) I'm more like 98.8% suspecting those at 5N(including JR's guest / DB), 1% non-stranger not at 5N, and .02% random stranger junkie / rapists and .00001% or less for calculating stranger abduction / serial
killer / sex slaver, etc.

For a criminal jury, they have to decide on "beyond a reasonable doubt"
For a civil case, they decide on "preponderance of evidence"

Since WS'rs don't have access to LE facts (and hopefully they really know more than we do) a real case could go much differently.
But if I were sitting on a Jury in a civil trial, I'm way past the point of preponderance of evidence if all of what we think to be true were verified as actual facts and were admissible. I'm not sure where "beyond a reasonable doubt" line exists... for you there is a great deal of doubt, for me, there is little doubt it involves those at 5N (but I would have trouble convicting anyone specific at this point) And so if you and I were on the same Jury in a criminal case, if the only evidence is what we know now were the truth, they would all get off. For me there would have to be some compelling evidence that narrows down more precisely what happened, where she died and who took care of the body. What we have right now is more like a game of Clue. We have a number of POI's, and a high degree of certainty that one or more of them is involved. We just don't know which ones, where and how.

I don't think we are going to get any closer than this, because if LE has anything that could zero in on the specific individuals and what they did, they would probably only reveal it after making arrests. (not that I'm giving up)

 

[Ixchel13]

Please poke holes in theories, this is how we get closer to substance.

First of all Random Stranger abduction is Rare, it's not 25%. In this case, there is a very small window of opportunity decreasing those already small odds to something on the order of less than 1 in 10,000.

But of course there are 320 million people in the USA so that does leave it as a possibility, it DOES happen. Now the type of perps you are suggesting seem to fall into 2 categories. 1) Street thugs and 2) Kidnapper Sex offenders / Serial Killers

For category 1) Street Thugs they rarely go to great lengths to dispose of a body. If someone mugged her, like if this were an alley in El Paso, Sunset Strip or 45th St. in Chicago... they would just fling her into a ditch or leave her right there. Someone looking to score a quick fix, is very much focused on the fix, and not spending protracted amounts of time hiding bodies.

For category 2) Sex Offenders, then you open up a whole other can of worms. There are those that rape'm and ditch'm much like a junkie needing a fix. As rare as this behavior is, and as small of a window that existed, the bodies are usually discovered. And there is usually a pattern that LE follows for these sorts of things. The more calculating abductor, who is watching and waiting for such an opportunity, who might keep her as a sex slave, rape or kill and then very carefully dispose of the body, is exceedingly rare. Unfortunately not as rare was winning the powerball. Odds are on the order of 1 in 3 Million.

when comparing the odds of the likelihood of these events against the inconsistent stories of those at 5N, and her known condition (including the last video footage of her falling face down) I'm more like 98.8% suspecting those at 5N(including JR's guest / DB), 1% non-stranger not at 5N, and .02% random stranger junkie / rapists and .00001% or less for calculating stranger abduction / serial
killer / sex slaver, etc.

For a criminal jury, they have to decide on "beyond a reasonable doubt"
For a civil case, they decide on "preponderance of evidence"

Since WS'rs don't have access to LE facts (and hopefully they really know more than we do) a real case could go much differently.
But if I were sitting on a Jury in a civil trial, I'm way past the point of preponderance of evidence if all of what we think to be true were verified as actual facts and were admissible. I'm not sure where "beyond a reasonable doubt" line exists... for you there is a great deal of doubt, for me, there is little doubt it involves those at 5N (but I would have trouble convicting anyone specific at this point) And so if you and I were on the same Jury in a criminal case, if the only evidence is what we know now were the truth, they would all get off. For me there would have to be some compelling evidence that narrows down more precisely what happened, where she died and who took care of the body. What we have right now is more like a game of Clue. We have a number of POI's, and a high degree of certainty that one or more of them is involved. We just don't know which ones, where and how.

I don't think we are going to get any closer than this, because if LE has anything that could zero in on the specific individuals and what they did, they would probably only reveal it after making arrests. (not that I'm giving up)

There are two ways of answering , one the humanistic way: that when we're dealing with the human factor, all logic can go to the wind and random acts of violence do happen--Mickey for example.
Now let's redo your math. Yes, the abduction stats say unlikely but before you do these stats for Lauren, you would have to factor in that she is in fact missing which would change the stats. Then, factor in the time she disappeared crossed by the shady businesses, half-way houses for addicts and group homes for sex offenders in the area.
When you put the math and human factor together, you get this: each case is different, and we are finding out time and again it's not wrapped in a neat package.
We don't know what was said behind the scenes to cause the POIs to get lawyers right away. IMO, JW might have made the first threat against them
when he and his dad confronted JR. At that point, if I were JR, MB, CR, ZO, etc, I would be clearing my apt of all paraphanalia and pharmacopae just for
gp--this is what innocent people do who get paranoid. They called their parents--parents with beau coupe money who immediately googled the best lawyers around. Guilty or not, getting the lawyers wasn't a sign of guilt, they definitely need them.
And the all guy thing. If we are going to blame JR for not walking her home,
let's revisit her return to SW from Kilroys. Did HT refuse her entry to the apt?
Here she is--shoeless, phoneless, in her apartment building already. This is where the story breaks down for me. IMO MOO, when I saw HT on TV I thought, this girl is lying, lying, and the girl next to her as well. IMO, she was either mad at Lauren or had someone else there that she didn't want Lauren to see. JW? just a theory. Who else would a best friend positively NOT answer the door for?
Also, people assume that Lauren was the person being capricious and running around on JW with CR. What if we assume that LS was being subtly
dumped by JW behind her back instead? Then, start the whole evening over.
Both the POIs named and the women friends of LS might know behind her back. LS might not know that JW was dumping her, but she was telling the same friends that she was dumping him. If someone hid her phone and shoes from her, then someone was in on it at Kilroys. (non employee)
Then, she is locked out because? Her roommate has now left, also at
a late hour? If so, where did HT go? I think Lauren left and had every intention to come right back but then someone set her up.
So what happened to her, and why it happened to her, could be two totally different things. The friends are definitely the why.

 

[Ros]

the point of a polygraph is to see if someone is lying and get an idea of what is going on. If they asked a rhetorical question like that, a person could object and simply say, we never fought, or there was no violence... and then the polygraph would indicate LIE or NO LIE.

It's true LE does TRICK the truth out of people. And the TRUTH is what we need here.

The point I was trying to make is that, while one is in a stressful situation, one might answer quickly without thinking and be tricked into admitting to something that they had not done.

 

[webrocket]

been a long time since I posted anything in connection with Lauren Spierer.

all I can say is that I personally find it hard to believe that a group of college kids, who were up all night "partying", could do in a friend, somehow dispose of her body without leaving any forensic evidence behind, and then by the next day all manage to keep it together and keep quiet.

looks to me like the work of a stranger who had a vehicle and got out of town with Lauren.

 

[masootz]

been a long time since I posted anything in connection with Lauren Spierer.

all I can say is that I personally find it hard to believe that a group of college kids, who were up all night "partying", could do in a friend, somehow dispose of her body without leaving any forensic evidence behind, and then by the next day all manage to keep it together and keep quiet.

looks to me like the work of a stranger who had a vehicle and got out of town with Lauren.

qft. any theory that involves that group makes me question how lucky people could be to leave absolutely zero evidence in the commission of a homicide wherein they, as the perpetrators, were reportedly all blitzed on booze or drugs.

 

[akh]

1) Why did JR NOT tell LS to call him when she got back to SW?
He made a point to say that she had her SW keycard, so she would not need to call anyone to gain entry to the building, but would need entry to her apt.
So if he had told her to call him, and then she didn't call, he should have then started calling to find out what happened right away. Starting with HT, LS's roommate. But, no such calls occurred. Then he would have discovered that she didn't make it and could have called 911.

The simple answer could be because he never had any concern that she wouldn't make it to her apartment. Whether that means he really didn't care one way or the other or it means these people were all comfortable in their surroundings so he never considered there'd be a problem for her, I have no idea.

It doesn't automatically mean you've found the key to the case and one more reason you can be certain of his guilt.

He might be guilty but this isn't the smoking gun. Plus, we don't really know there weren't more calls.

 

[bx2]

After polling people, the answers that I got where similar.

1) Why did JR NOT tell LS to call him when she got back to SW?

"Rosenbaum said he finally let Spierer leave after she demonstrated she could walk without stumbling. As she was walking away, he said, he urged her again to stay, then told her to text him if she retrieved her phone." -pg. 5 of the same ol Lohud one year later story.



As to some of the other points, I think this is another case of trying to apply logic to the situation in hindsight. Of course he isn't going to call 911 after not hearing from her, especially if she didn't find her phone. In hindsight, of course it wasn't the correct decision to let her leave. In hindsight, pieces of conversation such as "we should get together tonight", get replayed over and over in the minds of those that it haunts even though at the time, there may have been nothing strange at all about not being in contact.

Trying to make a liar out of someone based on the snips of conversation reported in the media and the hearsay from the attorneys and other people around the situation is just an impossible task. For every certainty we think we have arrived at in someone's story, there is muddled detail and drunken logic that is just too tough for us to go back and assign intent to now.

 

[cluciano63]

I hope that anyone who knows what happened to Lauren has had horrible nightmares and misery ever since. Maybe one day, such misery will drive someone to come forward.

 

[deca]

I guess I am less shocked and appalled at the behaviors of the group- drinking-partying and lack of safety concerns because I have observed this numerous times both during my time at school and later around different campuses where I have lived.
Really, if any sicko wanted easy game, all they would have to do is wait around a college campus/ living area in the early morning hours.

 

[AbbeyR]

all I can say is that I personally find it hard to believe that a group of college kids, who were up all night "partying", could do in a friend, somehow dispose of her body without leaving any forensic evidence behind, and then by the next day all manage to keep it together and keep quiet.

looks to me like the work of a stranger who had a vehicle and got out of town with Lauren.

I feel the same way sometimes. But there are lots of cases where college kids who are drunk or high do things like this.

There was a case last year that I read about where a girl overdosed, her friends freaked out and left her body in a rolled up carpet beside a dumpster. They were caught eventually, and faced (minor) charges, but I'm not sure they would have been if she hadn't been found so quickly. An early morning dog walker let their dog off leash and it drew attention to the carpet, which otherwise would have been taken away with the trash a few hours later. If it had, or if they had dumped her in a rural area, who knows if anyone would have ever known what happened to her. Even if LE had some evidence and knew her friends were concealing information, without a body they may not have ever had enough evidence to charge them with anything. (Look at the Natalee Holloway case for example)

Around the same time, there was a similar case in California where a kid died of an overdose. When he started foaming at the mouth and passed out, his friends drove around calling other friends to try to get them to take him off their hands, but no one would. Instead of taking him to a hospital, they dragged him home and put him to bed and then went to a party. When they checked on him the next morning, he was dead. In that case, though the friends did not dump the body or cover-up what happened, they were charged with involuntary manslaughter because they didn't get him help when he obviously needed it.(Link to Griffen Kramer story). The prosecutor argued that even though GK was responsible for taking the drugs himself, he would have survived if his friends had taken him to a hospital, and when he passed out, they had a 'duty of care' that they neglected (link).

After reading about cases like these, I can imagine a scenario something like this unfolding. People who are high and freaked out can do really stupid and unthinkable things. And sometimes they get away with it. I can also imagine other possibilities. Maybe the POI did something worse that they are covering up. Or maybe they are telling the truth and Lauren was the victim of a random predator that night.

But even if she was taken by a stranger, I believe that the POI are still, to some degree, responsible, for the same reason given by the judge in the case described above. By the time Lauren left Smallwood, she couldn't even walk by herself, and by several accounts, had symptoms that went beyond just being drunk. Whether this was because she was slipped drugs, took drugs willingly, or had some unrelated medical reaction, she needed help to get home safely, and she probably needed to be taken to a hospital. Instead, in the most generous scenario, she was 'helped' away from her own apartment by CR, despite the protests of her friends and the concerns of total strangers on the street who were reassured things were 'under control'. She has to be carried to 5 N by CR because she can't walk on her own, but when they get there, CR is the one who is taken care of - "put to bed", by his roommate, who then passes Lauren off to a neighbor. A short time later, JR lets her walk out the door -- at 4 am, with no shoes, cell phone or money.

We don't have enough evidence to know what happened, only that she didn't make it home. I don't know if the 'duty of care' argument would hold the POI legally responsible in a criminal or even a civil case. But I think it should.

 

[AbbeyR]

Trying to make a liar out of someone based on the snips of conversation reported in the media and the hearsay from the attorneys and other people around the situation is just an impossible task. For every certainty we think we have arrived at in someone's story, there is muddled detail and drunken logic that is just too tough for us to go back and assign intent to now.

Statements made by one's lawyer are not hearsay -- They are hired and authorized to speak for their clients. But yes, I agree with the general point.

 

[VeryVeritas]

"Rosenbaum said he finally let Spierer leave after she demonstrated she could walk without stumbling. As she was walking away, he said, he urged her again to stay, then told her to text him if she retrieved her phone." -pg. 5 of the same ol Lohud one year later story.



As to some of the other points, I think this is another case of trying to apply logic to the situation in hindsight. Of course he isn't going to call 911 after not hearing from her, especially if she didn't find her phone. In hindsight, of course it wasn't the correct decision to let her leave. In hindsight, pieces of conversation such as "we should get together tonight", get replayed over and over in the minds of those that it haunts even though at the time, there may have been nothing strange at all about not being in contact.

Trying to make a liar out of someone based on the snips of conversation reported in the media and the hearsay from the attorneys and other people around the situation is just an impossible task. For every certainty we think we have arrived at in someone's story, there is muddled detail and drunken logic that is just too tough for us to go back and assign intent to now.

It's great to have the whole 5N defense lawyers and their staff here.

Well you poked a dent in one of the Missing call items I posted. What about the rest of my list? keep poking.

The reason it's only a dent and not a hole you've poked here is that It's JR who crafted his words carefully, not my 20/20 hindsight. And it is those words that indicate deception, along with MB's and CR's. I'm not the only one to catch and post the inconsistencies, quite a few have emerged.

JR carefully chose to say text me IF you find your phone. But of course if she were dead and didn't have her phone, such a statement covers his actions. If I were truly concerned about someone as JR portrays himself, not by one action, but by several actions, then the natural follow through is to make sure she arrives at SW. That would not be accomplished by the unlikely prospect of her retrieving her phone at 4:30 barefoot and just passing a walk test. What would make a lot more sense is that he tell her to call him. Just like she supposedly just picked up JR's phone and called DR and Mr. POI. Why did she not text DR and Mr. POI? By the same means she could use a land line in her apartment or the mobile phone of the person who lets her into her apt. It would be a natural request. But to ask her to text IF you find your phone is inconsistent with his CARING and methodical depictions of himself moments earlier. It would have been more believable if he would have said Call me or Text so that I know you made it. It's unnecessary to state the obvious "if you find your phone". Again that seems staged. There would be no reason to place a contingency of "IF" she finds her phone. The reason for saying this is that it doesn't require any sort of follow up, and so therefore he can just go to sleep. What is the point of even asking her to text him ("If she finds her phone")? Because if she does make it home and can't text him, he does nothing. The point of asking is that when someone doesn't call or text, that you DO something. Especially after you just made a very thorough point of how much you cared about her.

 

[VeryVeritas]

qft. any theory that involves that group makes me question how lucky people could be to leave absolutely zero evidence in the commission of a homicide wherein they, as the perpetrators, were reportedly all blitzed on booze or drugs.

1) MB was studying at 3:00am
2) CR took a slug to the face and was still able to walk and help LS walk. If LS ever made it to 5N after the Alley splat, it was CR who carried, propped or dragged her there.
3) JR was able to observe in specific details LS's actions, appearance and condition (Assuming any of it is truthful)

The one that was clearly Blitzed was Lauren. Since we don't know who all of the POI's are, we don't know their state. And just from the above, there certainly was enough mental clarity, sobriety and muscle to deal with everything from rape to disposing of a body.

But by the same token, since LS is the one clearly blitzed as recorded on cameras and by witnesses, it's not plausible that she suddenly recovers a few minutes later, wants to party more and then walks back towards home.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Pharm Parties

Not sure if someone posted on this before. While there has been reports of various drugs
a) some reports of LS talking at Kilroy's about what she'd taken (including Xanax and Opiates)
b) some reports (or rumors?) of DR admitting to using Klonopin that night with LS.
c) the commonness of cocaine in this type of evironment

A recent phenomenon has been occuring heavily in the East Coast: Pharm parties.
Where people bring various random pills and capsules... they throw them together on a table or hard surface, crush and mix them together sometimes with coke, meth, X or heroin into a powder. Then they snort this pharmaceutical cocktail. extremely risky!

Has this been going on in Bloomington? Has anyone who posts ever been to a party at JR's or was there the night LS vanished? If so, was there some Pharm blending going on? These pharmacuetical coctails also fit the symptoms.

 

[looking-4-lauren]

Pharm Parties

Not sure if someone posted on this before. While there has been reports of various drugs
a) some reports of LS talking at Kilroy's about what she'd taken (including Xanax and Opiates)
b) some reports (or rumors?) of DR admitting to using Klonopin that night with LS.
c) the commonness of cocaine in this type of evironment

A recent phenomenon has been occuring heavily in the East Coast: Pharm parties.
Where people bring various random pills and capsules... they throw them together on a table or hard surface, crush and mix them together sometimes with coke, meth, X or heroin into a powder. Then they snort this pharmaceutical cocktail. extremely risky!

Has this been going on in Bloomington? Has anyone who posts ever been to a party at JR's or was there the night LS vanished? If so, was there some Pharm blending going on? These pharmacuetical coctails also fit the symptoms.

As far as (b & c) go -

(b) You're correct. It was reported in LoHud's "Lauren Spierer: One Year Later" video timeline series (http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/) that DR and Lauren had done Klonopin. I'm quite sure the video states that they used it before leaving Smallwood for JR's pregame party.

(c) - As an IU grad, I can assure you that if you wanted them, coke and pills were yours to gain - easily accessible and prevalent around campus. I can honestly say that these types of things were so common, it didn't phase me one bit to see the usage in action. A few years later, I can only imagine what it's like there now.

 

[webrocket]

in most cases, people are wise not to talk to the police whether they are guilty as sin or completely innocent. I do not knock anyone for refusing to talk, lawyering up, or refusing to take polygraphs.

plenty of people are sitting in prison not because they actually committed a crime rather because cops, when handed a sensational case, want to pin it on someone so they will try to create suspects where none exist.

I guarantee you that most college age kids, if out all night "partying" (I use that term euphemistically as it may involve use of illegal drugs) will NOT remember time and sequence of events. people who are wasted probably won't remember the sequence of bars they went to, what time they left, who they drank with at bar A. B. or C, etc. that is fertile ground for cops to trap people on their own words even if they had nothing to do with (in this case) Lauren's disappearance.

they had plenty of reasons not to invite the cops in, if as has been suggested, there were drugs floating about. these kids may have been taught that if there is ever any trouble with the cop UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES TALK TO THE POLICE, which I might add is very sage advice.

there is nothing altrustic about talking to the cops when they want to put someone on trial and it could be the person who voluntarily gave a statement

 

[kenya2009]

I've been following Lauren's case since the get go. I really do not have anything to add except I am boggled as to why no one is speaking up. I strongly feel someone she was close with was with her the night she just vanished into thin air and that person knows exactly what went down. I cannot believe no one is speaking up after all this time. Someone knows something, I hope they slip up one day and spill the beans. This is getting ridiculous, her family needs the closure they deserve. :furious: JMO