IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[VeryVeritas]

[/B]
First of all, please don't think I'm defending the POIs. VV just made some valid points about other witnesses seeing LS at JR's. We all know LE hasn't told us everything. Obviously, JR admitted to being the last person to see LS. If she were in fact dead by that time, he would only admit to seeing her last if he gave her the drugs and everyone knew it, so he had to help. If she was alive when he first saw her again after leaving MBs,
then he would have to admit being with her last because of witnesses. Or,
maybe she was alive when he last saw her. To not see that as a possibility
to me seems like that is the preferred way most people want to see it. It is the least painful and the easiest answer. If she were my kid, and I had all these kids alive after she is presumed dead, that is the theory I would focus on, I think all of their silence adds up to alot of drugs, alot of drug dealing, and their parents worried about their futures being ruined and their fortunes being ruined. If she were my kid, and I found out people messed with my daughter and then she disappeared, I would go after them with every possible means I could find. Sorry if they are young, didn't know any better, etc, we all eff up, etc. All of these kids were a bit out of control, there was a pic up on FB that has HT sticking out her tongue for the camera with a bar of Xanax on it. In the background on the counter is the vodka and lemonade
and shot glasses to make lemon drops. Vodka+Xanax=blackouts. If they somehow caused LS to disappear through negligence such as pranks, slipping her drugs, etc, then everyone of them needs to go down without mercy, sorry.
Finding this one SO that is possibly a late night food delivery person
made me think of the fact that at 4:30 a.m., practically the only vehicles around are delivery cars and they do deliver until 4 a.m.!
There has to be other witnesses who saw her alive or these kids would have been treated alot differently. If the cadaver dogs had signalled, they would've been treated differently.
Let's go back to the alley. If LS and CR were knocking on a door in the alley and then went on, the cameras don't shut off. Someone could have then left that apt and then walked up the alley, again nothing could be proven because the cameras end at the end of the alley. But if she knocked on the door several scenarios present themselves--was JW at that apt?
To me, IMO, MOO, my first suspect is abduction by not a stranger but perhaps someone who lurks or is in the area alot, or after she left the apt,JW.

Anyone ask HT where she gets her Xanax?

One thing I have wondered about is if there was one of these Pharm party sort of scenarios where everyone put out their pills, crushed them, mixed them and somehow Lauren wound up snorting too much for her size.

The reason, I consider this quite a bit lately is that it's one way that even more than just the CR/MB/JR POI's could feel guilty and feel the need to keep silent. Regarding drugs this is what I have floating around in my mind:

1) JR admits people were doing drugs, but he didn't say what.
2) There is the DR Klonopin stories.
3) There is stories where LS is spouting off at Kilroys about Xanax and/or other drugs she had taken.
4) There are stories about LS and Xanax.
5) There was a story about a baggie of cocaine found (And planted?) at LS/HT's apt.
6) There are stories about JR being a drug supplier, and certainly his place was a drug den.
7) There are stories about someone (not sure if he's on the POI list) being involved with Heroin.
8) JR seemed very able to recollect things and make conscious decisions at his place after 3:30 call from MB. He made it clear he had been drinking, but his observations and actions seem more rational than someone highly intoxicated. While low level dealers in this kind of campus setting who sell stuff to cover their own supply will use, there is a well known rule not to dip into the supply.

Did I miss any?

So, I wonder if there wasn't an open combination of pills chopped up, crushed and snorted. If this happened at JR's he's culpable for allowing this to take place in his apt. I could envision the 4:15 calls being something like... "DR(and Mr. POI), what were those pills you brought?" If most everyone contributed pills then... it's a defacto code of silence (BTW - a code of silence is a form of conspiracy).

 

[AbbeyR]

1) I'm not aware the Gatto witness confirmed that it was CR.
I've never seen a post that Gatto and/or the witness agree with LE that the time was wrong.

2) If LE is so sure the time is wrong and that it was CR, then the time must be before 2:50, as I said. The ONLY people that I'm aware of that claim to have seen Lauren ALIVE or AT ALL after that face down fall exiting the Alley, is MB and JR. Although there have been statements made that others were present at CR/MB's and JR's, yet I'm not aware of any quotes directly from those people (or even secondhand statements) that they saw LS at CR/MB's or JR's after 3:00.

3) I've also never seen a statement from PI's saying that their witness, was Gatto's witness. Sorry if I missed that one, please repost.

Read the two accounts side by side. Plus, Gatto confirmed that the witness was the same person. He just came to different conclusions than the PI.

I believe his witness had some of the details wrong, as witnesses often do.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8387998&postcount=446"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8387998&postcount=446[/ame]

 

[AbbeyR]

7) There are stories about someone (not sure if he's on the POI list) being involved with Heroin.

Huh? Who are you talking about?

 

[rustyfriend]

1st I've heard of heroin.

 

[Ixchel13]

the boyfriend is not a goody-goody by all means, and from what is rumoured, every bit as drug drenched as JR. He is one of the leaders of an underground frat kicked out for drug dealing. His alibi should be checked more stringently than JRs because he had motive and opportunity. His roommates said he went to bed. People can get out of bed.
Basically, no one can prove what any of these kids did after 3 a.m. because they all alibi each other. This JW is not a better person than JR. Everything we get about these boys is through the eyes of someone who is either trying to make them seem guilty or trying to alibi them. Obviously boyfriends bamboozle their girlfriends parents on a regular basis, only not over something this serious. But if LS's parents think this guy isn't into drugs up to his eyeballs, think again.

 

[VeryVeritas]

the boyfriend is not a goody-goody by all means, and from what is rumoured, every bit as drug drenched as JR. He is one of the leaders of an underground frat kicked out for drug dealing. His alibi should be checked more stringently than JRs because he had motive and opportunity. His roommates said he went to bed. People can get out of bed.
Basically, no one can prove what any of these kids did after 3 a.m. because they all alibi each other. This JW is not a better person than JR. Everything we get about these boys is through the eyes of someone who is either trying to make them seem guilty or trying to alibi them. Obviously boyfriends bamboozle their girlfriends parents on a regular basis, only not over something this serious. But if LS's parents think this guy isn't into drugs up to his eyeballs, think again.

I'm not interested so much in people's opinions about these POI's and always take that with a grain of salt. Everything "coloring and shaping" my sense of what happened has to do with known facts, statements, behaviors, contrasted against well estabilished stats, and information from people knowledgeable about the environment, area, and POI's in general. Analysis involves making a lot of comparisons and using logic to reduce possibilities. In the begnning, I immediately wanted to know about JW because that is typically the most likely scenario. Then it pointed to CR, but the weird altercation with ZO and ZO's absolution while CR was raked over the coals in the press and by LE, struck me as odd... so I had to wonder why ZO got a carte blanch to slug someone who did nothing to them and was caught on camera doing so, meanwhile the person who was hit was berated and painted as a sneaky irresponsible buffoon by the press. It took me a long time to come to the increasing conclusion that CR's Amnesia is a ploy. I'm convinced of it, but I'm not sure exactly why he wants to hide behind that. I'm convinced that something still stinks about ZO and his altercation with CR and how he got away with video taped battery and was nearly made into a heroic figure by the press.
But the lies of CR/MB and JR and the inconsistencies of their stories far overshadow any suspicion of JW and ZO.

 

[VeryVeritas]

the boyfriend is not a goody-goody by all means, and from what is rumoured, every bit as drug drenched as JR. He is one of the leaders of an underground frat kicked out for drug dealing. His alibi should be checked more stringently than JRs because he had motive and opportunity. His roommates said he went to bed. People can get out of bed.
Basically, no one can prove what any of these kids did after 3 a.m. because they all alibi each other. This JW is not a better person than JR. Everything we get about these boys is through the eyes of someone who is either trying to make them seem guilty or trying to alibi them. Obviously boyfriends bamboozle their girlfriends parents on a regular basis, only not over something this serious. But if LS's parents think this guy isn't into drugs up to his eyeballs, think again.

I'm not sure how JW's drugs factor into this? If he were a heavy duty druggy and even dealer... how would that change anything?

There is no scrap of proof that JW left his place that night. There are a lot of cameras around and yes LS and CR were captured on them. JW was not. If JW were seen in person or on camera after 3:00 then he would not be cleared and the Spierers would know about that. There is a lot more here than someone's alibis... there were a lot of people out that night and there are cameras.

So what we have in following thread after thread, keeps winding up at 5N.

 

[VeryVeritas]

1st I've heard of heroin.

Sadly and yet thankfully there are a lot of segments(we are on #28!) and pages to LS's WS history. Heroin was discussed in various contexts.

I believe AB was accused of being linked with Heroin.

Also, there were reports of corrupt Bloomington LE being involved in protecting certain channels of coke and heroin distribution - Amongst other places this appeared on Gatto's blog.

Just do a search for Spierer and Heroin in Google and here on WS and see what you get.

What do you think of the Pharm Party concept as a reason for silence?

 

[AbbeyR]

Sadly and yet thankfully there are a lot of segments(we are on #28!) and pages to LS's WS history. Heroin was discussed in various contexts.

I believe AB was accused of being linked with Heroin.

Also, there were reports of corrupt Bloomington LE being involved in protecting certain channels of coke and heroin distribution - Amongst other places this appeared on Gatto's blog.

Just do a search for Spierer and Heroin in Google and here on WS and see what you get.

What do you think of the Pharm Party concept as a reason for silence?

I don't remember heroin being talked about either and I'm fairly certain it is not a factor among LS's group of friends. Can you please provide a link to whatever it is that you think is relevant? Thanks!

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I think it was the US Marshal's Office that investigated all the known SO's in the area. They were all found. That does not mean that any of them were cleared.

http://www.wthr.com/story/15044254/...earch-of-sex-offenders-near-spierer-apartment

Ah, thank you for the correction. and RIGHT! It doesn't! Another reason I wish we knew the unknown's on the POI list!

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Gatto's "mystery man" witness and the PI's witness who described CR carrying Lauren are the same witness. No one else saw anyone carrying Lauren, and LE said the time of Gatto's witness was wrong.

I wonder though, because of the time issue, could this witness have an interest we don't know about, or a connection to someone that we don't know about that would give her a reason to either purposefully be off on her time or to insist that the guy carrying LS wasn't CR if it was? What might those interests and/or connections be do you suppose?

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

the boyfriend is not a goody-goody by all means, and from what is rumoured, every bit as drug drenched as JR. He is one of the leaders of an underground frat kicked out for drug dealing. His alibi should be checked more stringently than JRs because he had motive and opportunity. His roommates said he went to bed. People can get out of bed.
Basically, no one can prove what any of these kids did after 3 a.m. because they all alibi each other. This JW is not a better person than JR. Everything we get about these boys is through the eyes of someone who is either trying to make them seem guilty or trying to alibi them. Obviously boyfriends bamboozle their girlfriends parents on a regular basis, only not over something this serious. But if LS's parents think this guy isn't into drugs up to his eyeballs, think again.

Oh I do agree with you on this point. I don't think JW a better person than JR. What I do think is that because he is LS's boyfriend (see VV stats posted above) that his alibi probably WAS checked stringently. People can get up and leave, but they can't always avoid cameras even if they can avoid their room mates. We know that his house was searched by K9's as well. You're also right about the light being shed on these guys and how that can color our perceptions incorrectly. Being a photographer I understand this concept very well, only I use actual light to make inferences. Anyway, understanding the concept and knowing this happens doesn't change that it does make a difference in how people perceive other people. I hope that I've been objective but at the end of day while my opinion surely has been influenced and as such could be wrong, I still don't think JW is the guy responsible. But, I'm also open to new information so if you find any in reference to JW, for instance information about cameras that would have recorded him leaving his house or the lack of them, please do share it.

 

[Snapfade]

I wonder though, because of the time issue, could this witness have an interest we don't know about, or a connection to someone that we don't know about that would give her a reason to either purposefully be off on her time or to insist that the guy carrying LS wasn't CR if it was? What might those interests and/or connections be do you suppose?

What a Great Possibilty. Ive read that she was older visiting younger. It could be as simple as she married or has a boyfriend and should have been home. She could have beem covering her own actions that morning, by saying she seen them right after she closed.

 

[AbbeyR]

I wonder though, because of the time issue, could this witness have an interest we don't know about, or a connection to someone that we don't know about that would give her a reason to either purposefully be off on her time or to insist that the guy carrying LS wasn't CR if it was? What might those interests and/or connections be do you suppose?

It's possible she changed or omitted details for some reason, but my guess is that she just got some of the details wrong. Witness accounts aren't usually totally accurate, and they can be way off.

It was late at night, she was in a car, and by the time she figured out it must have been Lauren and reported the sighting, at least a few days had passed (I want to say 6?). We also don't know the extent of her interview with TG, and whether his account was totally accurate. Also, TG said at one point that the witness would not talk to him again. I would guess that this is just because LE told her to be quiet, but it means that I don't think TG was ever able to clarify some of the details that people were asking about, like some basic details about the description. If this is the case, if she made a mistake about the time and later corrected it, he wouldn't know.

 

[Ixchel13]

Oh I do agree with you on this point. I don't think JW a better person than JR. What I do think is that because he is LS's boyfriend (see VV stats posted above) that his alibi probably WAS checked stringently. People can get up and leave, but they can't always avoid cameras even if they can avoid their room mates. We know that his house was searched by K9's as well. You're also right about the light being shed on these guys and how that can color our perceptions incorrectly. Being a photographer I understand this concept very well, only I use actual light to make inferences. Anyway, understanding the concept and knowing this happens doesn't change that it does make a difference in how people perceive other people. I hope that I've been objective but at the end of day while my opinion surely has been influenced and as such could be wrong, I still don't think JW is the guy responsible. But, I'm also open to new information so if you find any in reference to JW, for instance information about cameras that would have recorded him leaving his house or the lack of them, please do share it.

The cameras have been gone over really thoroughly here at WS. on FB, and PT. There are several in the area, but the people who live in SW and at 10th and C know how to avoid them. Not saying all of them can be avoided, but you can def skirt the cameras going from 10th and C to 5N.
Heroin has been readily available in Bloomington since at least the 70s.
Oxy is everywhere and all varieties of pills very readily available in lg. quantities as well.
Someone stated that the witness might be older visiting younger. There was a small UTube posted on PTof a party AB was at in which an older woman was hitting on him, kissing him. The older people the younger people were partying with in the video looked like junkies. Sorry to be mean but they just had that look. The video looked like it was shot at a 10th and C apt.

 

[faithbelieve]

I think the witness saw Lauren and the "mystery man" at exactly the time she stated - 3:38 AM. The 10th and College security cameras were never adjusted to Daylight Saving Time, so we need to add an hour. LS entered the alley at 3:48 and exited at 3:51. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Oh I do agree with you on this point. I don't think JW a better person than JR. What I do think is that because he is LS's boyfriend (see VV stats posted above) that his alibi probably WAS checked stringently. People can get up and leave, but they can't always avoid cameras even if they can avoid their room mates. We know that his house was searched by K9's as well. You're also right about the light being shed on these guys and how that can color our perceptions incorrectly. Being a photographer I understand this concept very well, only I use actual light to make inferences. Anyway, understanding the concept and knowing this happens doesn't change that it does make a difference in how people perceive other people. I hope that I've been objective but at the end of day while my opinion surely has been influenced and as such could be wrong, I still don't think JW is the guy responsible. But, I'm also open to new information so if you find any in reference to JW, for instance information about cameras that would have recorded him leaving his house or the lack of them, please do share it.

Same here... new information would sure be great. We've been rehashing since June. I would think by now if the FBI were helping there might be some progress. The tools at their disposal are amazing.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Almost New Thought...

What if through CR or JR, LS was put into a car alive(maybe semi-conscious) for the purpose of taking her to SW but she never made it? Previously I'd considered that someone may have attempted to bring her to the Hospital which is over a mile away, but she passed away enroute. This time, what if LS was placed in the vehicle to bring her to SW and then died? This could explain the lack of forensic evidence related to a dead body. Just like the general disposal theories, it still comes down to what car and who is in the car?
I was thinking of how LE searched CR's vehicle. Why his vehicle? I wonder if LE could make out a vehicle in the Alley Video? If it could be made out that someone put LS into a vehicle this could explain: 1) The conflict with the 3:38 witness and 2) why LE was looking at recordings of vehicles (eg. White Truck)
I could see how they may only have caught a dark glimpse of a vehicle if anything. So my point is that LE may know a vehicle was involved, just not which vehicle or who else may have been in it. Another spin on it.... what if JR was in the vehicle too? What if they drove around debating what to do... take her home or take her to hospital... and then she's dead? LE must know all vehicles captured on cams that night (And I would hope on other nights as well).

 

[VeryVeritas]

The cameras have been gone over really thoroughly here at WS. on FB, and PT. There are several in the area, but the people who live in SW and at 10th and C know how to avoid them. Not saying all of them can be avoided, but you can def skirt the cameras going from 10th and C to 5N.
Heroin has been readily available in Bloomington since at least the 70s.
Oxy is everywhere and all varieties of pills very readily available in lg. quantities as well.
Someone stated that the witness might be older visiting younger. There was a small UTube posted on PTof a party AB was at in which an older woman was hitting on him, kissing him. The older people the younger people were partying with in the video looked like junkies. Sorry to be mean but they just had that look. The video looked like it was shot at a 10th and C apt.

Thanks, yes that is one of the things I was referencing, I'd seen that video. And yes, unlike heresay a home video is worth 1 Million words.

 

[akh]

One thing to remember or consider... A post or two considered it exculpatory that JW did not appear in any video (at least as far as we know). But whatever happened, and whoever was involved, did apparently happen without the event being caught on video.

I'm not sure how not being caught on video excludes anyone or any scenario?