IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

Are you including ZO? What's your source, J?

 

[Jacobite]

Here's the article. http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/06/lauren_spierer_disappearance_d.php

 

[Ixchel13]

Kicked him in the head while he was down...hmmm... thats new, haven't heard that before. You have to think though, why would they lay a beating on him and then just let him walk away with LS. I am starting to think that finding out what this whole incident was actually about we would be a giant step closer to finding out what happened to LS. Combine this with HT's statement that LS "just went too far this time" and I think we will be heading down the path to some real answers.

ZO had money but not elite creds with the in crowd. Maybe he valued a position as chief dealer to these kids, and felt CR was moving in; wanted creds w. JW for beating up an interloper; or maybe he was jealous of CR.
Although I agree that it probably was not about Lauren.
I think, IMO, that ZO wasn't named a suspect because he talked. He could
verify that Lauren went up the alley and on to 10th and College and then up that alley towards 5N. He most probably followed her, or someone in his crowd did, because he was on the no visit list at SW and would need to leave pronto after the altercation. If Lauren and CR went the front way to 10th and College, and ZO and co. went the back way, they could beat them to
10th and College. See, they have video of Lauren going up the 10th and College alley, but not the way she and CR got there from SW. ZO has an apt. at 10th and College with AB.
Obviously, all the people involved are lying at some point about drugs and why they were here and there, and went here and there. This may or may not have something to do with Lauren's disappearance. To tell the police about a weird person hanging on the the edge of their charmed lives
would mean admitting to their parents and authorities that they did something wrong. Somewhere in this mess, one of these people could hold the clue and are too scared, both of the perp and the LE, to tell.
If that person didn't do anything to Lauren, but thinks they know who did,
and they've known it all along, I still think they would not go to jail if they finally came forward. Right?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been thinking about what CS said about the last time LS used her cell and how JR says she called from 5N using his phone (land line). Last night, my daughter freaked me out by texting from a going-away party (where she was spending the night) that she'd misplaced her phone. But she'd borrowed a cell to text me. When she did find her phone, it soon went dead ... and she borrowed another cell to text me that. Which made me think ...

LS was supposed to meet with JW later that night, correct? CS says she last used her cell when leaving SW ... and didn't contact JW all night from what we've been told. I wonder if that was because of 1) her condition or 2) she needed space for some reason that night.

I'm assuming CR had a cell LS could have borrowed to contact JW. Or, she could have borrowed a cell from someone at Sports. So I have to assume she went willingly with CR, given that she followed him from Sports and SW. But that doesn't mean she had much control over her actions after a certain point in the night, IMO.

Also ... I wonder about the use of the land line at JR's vs. his cell. Less incriminating ... or is there another reason? (Also, am I right that the call was made from his home phone vs. cell?)

It makes sense that LS texted someone upon leaving SW or upon Arriving at JR's 12:30 should make it arrival at JR's if the story of DR leaving after he walks LS over there is accurate. So who did she last text?
But within 1/2 hr to 45 minutes later she was already at Kilroys with CR.
Good question why she didn't text someone, if she were keeping in touch with someone, like JW. By 1:30 she is fu'd, by 2:00 beyond fu'd and very separated from her phone. So the time interval of maybe having her phone to up to the point where she lost track of it is roughly 1 hr.

What I like about your thinking here is that before she became real incapacitated she might have tried using someone else's phone.
What is the record for the night of use of CR's phone? Would sure like to know that. Using a landline and not a cell at JR's would be curious.

 

[VeryVeritas]

ZO had money but not elite creds with the in crowd. Maybe he valued a position as chief dealer to these kids, and felt CR was moving in; wanted creds w. JW for beating up an interloper; or maybe he was jealous of CR.
Although I agree that it probably was not about Lauren.
I think, IMO, that ZO wasn't named a suspect because he talked. He could
verify that Lauren went up the alley and on to 10th and College and then up that alley towards 5N. He most probably followed her, or someone in his crowd did, because he was on the no visit list at SW and would need to leave pronto after the altercation. If Lauren and CR went the front way to 10th and College, and ZO and co. went the back way, they could beat them to
10th and College. See, they have video of Lauren going up the 10th and College alley, but not the way she and CR got there from SW. ZO has an apt. at 10th and College with AB.
Obviously, all the people involved are lying at some point about drugs and why they were here and there, and went here and there. This may or may not have something to do with Lauren's disappearance. To tell the police about a weird person hanging on the the edge of their charmed lives
would mean admitting to their parents and authorities that they did something wrong. Somewhere in this mess, one of these people could hold the clue and are too scared, both of the perp and the LE, to tell.
If that person didn't do anything to Lauren, but thinks they know who did,
and they've known it all along, I still think they would not go to jail if they finally came forward. Right?

All night I've been thinking about that Keg and the visitors.

Previously when I went through JR's account of Lauren supposedly being at his place sometime between 3:30 and 4:30am His story made it pretty much seem like he and LS were alone. There are no references to visitors. Yet, with a keg and all sorts of dope, especially what you are suggesting that shipment came in, JR's place should still have some activity... after all JR was still awake and clear enough to remember lots of details and paint himself as behaving rationally. What strikes me is that LS usually was accompanied by someone. DR brought her to JR's, CR brought her to Kilroys...and back to SW and so on. But now in a very vulnerable status at the most wicked time of night she is going it alone? Any warm blooded guy who could stand up would likely volunteer to walk her home. So were all visitors totally on the floor, while JR was there playing solitaire waiting for MB's call? So, this Keg and visitors stirs up the fishy pot again. If the visitors brought something that LS took which did her in, I could see JR saying... hey you caused this, you clean it up. And so, he covers for them. We sort of went down that road quite a while ago, exploring that someone was a hard core drug distributor, mob connected, etc... What tweaked it for me is the keg. I really had missed that before.
But that conjurs a picture in my mind of there being like 8 to 10 maybe several more people at some point in the evening. So that increases the probability that someone other than JR saw LS at JR's during the crucial hour. If not, JR's story is vapor. But if a visitor can confirm she was there that late, perhaps they could also confirm how she left.
It seems very plausible now that one of them would offer to take her home, maybe drive her home but then goes elsewhere. But JR fears this person for whatever reason, and so, has to cover for them and lies about seeing her go down 11th. Not sure then about the 4:15 calls. If JR knew she left with person X, and then wanted DR to keep a lookout for her but got no answer, then tries another person at SW that JR knows also knows LS... they don't answer. So what is JR to do? I he knew she left with X, but then finds out that she is missing, he knows X is responsible. But if X is dangerous, JR has to either admit to all sorts of things and risk his life or clam up. And just because there was a keg, doesn't mean everyone was drinking.

 

[akh]

Yes, a lot has been substantiated. Comparing ZO to the others:

- We know JR, CR, MB and JW were named as POI
- We know their houses were searched
- We know they were asked and refused to take LE polygraphs
- Rumors about their previous records (drinking, drugs, breaking into smallwood etc.) were reported by MSM, and can be looked up in the MyCase Indiana system
- JR, CR and MB have also given accounts through their lawyers, giving their version(s) of the stories that were reported in the news and told by the police at the Press conferences and other statements related to their involvement with the case.

I wasn't so much talking about that kind of stuff but instead about the rumored details of that night that would point toward guilt or innocence that gets discussed.

- there are witnesses, video evidence, etc. that can be used to evaluate these accounts

And so on...

This is more what I'm talking about- The things we are using to evaluate certain accounts are what's not really been substantiated. We're not able to see the witnesses challenged, and in many cases we don't even get to see or hear directly from the witness. We just get someone's spin on what the witness has said. Or supposed to have said. Same for the videos. With the PI's we don't know where witness reports, video evidence, and speculation merge or separate.

Just look at how easy it is for an embellishment to become part of the narrative.

Then there's outstanding question whether JR was alone or not.

LE hasn't been forthcoming at all to clear confusion, refocus the narrative with any new evidence, etc.. So that just leaves a lot of things unsubstantiated. And it goes both ways (whether pointing to guilt or exculpatory).

Most of the things that were said about ZO, other than the fact that he punched CR, were said in anonymous comments, never mentioned by LE or by the media. I see a big difference.

True, but I don't see why we should totally discard them because they are unsubstantiated when we don't use that standard for everyone. If anything, with the deadends this case seems to be facing with the more popular 5N scenarios, properly considering and vetting ZO, if possible, would seem prudent to me.

 

[AbbeyR]

True, but I don't see why we should totally discard them because they are unsubstantiated when we don't use that standard for everyone. If anything, with the deadends this case seems to be facing with the more popular 5N scenarios, properly considering and vetting ZO, if possible, would seem prudent to me.

Go for it! If anyone can come up with an actual shred of legitimate info to support (or debunk) the ZO rumors, I'd love to see it.

 

[akh]

Go for it! If anyone can come up with an actual shred of legitimate info to support (or debunk) the ZO rumors, I'd love to see it.

I'm not sure where to start other than to say it seems to me that any of the people of that night who have managed to avoid talking and stayed out of the spotlight have also managed to escape a lot of public (or forum) scrutiny.

The more anyone has talked the more we've had to talk about. But I'm not sure that means that the people who've stayed quiet should escape scrutiny as much as they seem to.

Heh... well I say that... I guess the exception would be JR's mystery guest (or guests) aren't discounted, yet they might not actually exist at all.

It's not like LE is talking about anyone, so a lack of info about the other players that night shouldn't necessarily be seen as exculpatory.

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm not following... Article about CR and ZO? Lauren was camping out with ZO??

Can people post links if they are not talking about the key articles (Like from Lohud) that we talk about all the time? Or at least give context?

Saying that you heard something somewhere or are pretty sure you read it on the internet just adds to the confusion.

BBM why is Lohud excluded?

 

[Ixchel13]

Okay Very Veritas, let's take your theory of the built in predatory male anima and smack it into my Not Every Man Is Out For It theory.
Then, IMO, you would get someone on the edge, in the male group of this loose/tight knit circle of friends but not necessarily with the girls so much--one of the popular
guys' roommates.
ZO comes off as legit so suddenly his roommates are clear?
JW comes off as legit so no one brings up his roomies who alibi him?
All these phones ringing and no one answering. Dealers use burner phones and ring tones for different people.
It would be interesting to know how many people actually knew Lauren wanted to head home. Don't anyone say there were no messages officially left, I know that.

Had to edit to add this irony. The only people that came out in the media were the women involved, Lauren's roommates. Suddenly, they and everyone at their apt. that night seemed in the clear, and everything they said was considered the truth except for about JR.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Go for it! If anyone can come up with an actual shred of legitimate info to support (or debunk) the ZO rumors, I'd love to see it.

I'm working off of what is known about ZO.

1) ZO is supposedly not allowed at SW(haven't seen proof of that, but it doesn't matter much to me either way) but yet there he was with his gang, and gets into it with CR who is also not allowed(this was repeated over and over again in just about every news report talking about ZO hitting CR) there and punches CR. There is no proof of any kind that this has to do with protecting Lauren. Show me some proof about that. The observed and video captures do not indicate that anyone came to help her up, check her condition or assist her to her apt - the whole reason she was there! Instead the focus is on CR, not LS. It's a cockfight of some kind, not appearing to be a chivalrous gesture.
2) A guy(ZO) who commits battery on one guy(CR) who does not fight back while a whole group of guys(WHO ARE THEY???) are there to back that guy(ZO) up is a in my book. Not that CR is an angel, he very well could be a rapist. ZO appears to be a guy who has his jock strap wound up a little too tight. Does he not have this sort of reputation?, I'd seen posts, links, photos... but not going to dig that stuff out.
3) ZO lives at 10th and College. No one disputes that correct?
That 10th and College building is a key part of this night. It sits between SW and 5N. It's where LS after leaving SW knocked on some Girlfriends' door before sustaining a series of head injuries. It's where she sat and fell over hitting her head on the cement. It's the building adjacent to the alley leading to the gravel lot, where she exited with an unblocked faceplant and was last seen on known/publicly acknowledged video.
It's also where the Bartender says she saw someone carry LS at 3:38(disputed by LE) (although LS was definitely there more like 2:30)
4) ZO lives with AB. AB is a pre-med student who volunteers at the soup kitchen on weekends... uh no... no he's not. Just why do these 2 non-students live in a mostly student area? Why does ZO hang out in a building near his, which he is not supposed to be inside?


While the POI's and Vistors at 5N seem to be where LS met her end, I don't see how ZO and his gang can be ruled out either. Even if ZO is a real stand up guy, the defense of those at 5N will certainly work this as an alternate to create uncertainty with a jury. So, what ZO and his pals need is a really good Alibi for their whereabouts right after CR/LS left. Their exit from SW would also be recorded. So WHEN DID THEY LEAVE? WHO ARE ZO's pals during that altercation with CR? I'm not understanding why that sort of information is suppressed. Those 2 things could rule him / them out... for example if ZO spent the night at SW. But what if ZO and those others left maybe 30 minutes later and started walking up College to 10th and College to ZO's... then the group starts to break up and go their separate ways at around 4:20. In the unlikely event that JR was telling the truth and LS actually turned the corner and walked down College she could potentially have crossed paths with someone from that group. Personally I think those at 5N that night are responsible, but until there is confirmation of that, the ZO group is still a possibility.

There were 2 things which were really odd that may have set off the reaction about ZO. One is that he hits CR and there is no negative consequence of that even though it's on video. That is strange. The other is that the Media jumps on that and makes ZO seem like he is some sort of good guy for punching CR. The spin on that seemed senseless as ZO had no more reason or authority to be there than CR, and there has been Zero justification so far for hitting CR. So my observation is that others who saw that skewed reporting, started revealing fact and rumor about ZO.

I'll agree that simply bashing ZO and his rather shady roommate and mystery friends without something more concrete to connect him/them to LS disappearance isn't particularly useful. What matters is where these people were between 2:50am and 5:00am

 

[VeryVeritas]

Okay Very Veritas, let's take your theory of the built in predatory male anima and smack it into my Not Every Man Is Out For It theory.
Then, IMO, you would get someone on the edge, in the male group of this loose/tight knit circle of friends but not necessarily with the girls so much--one of the popular
guys' roommates.
ZO comes off as legit so suddenly his roommates are clear?
JW comes off as legit so no one brings up his roomies who alibi him?
All these phones ringing and no one answering. Dealers use burner phones and ring tones for different people.
It would be interesting to know how many people actually knew Lauren wanted to head home. Don't anyone say there were no messages officially left, I know that.

Had to edit to add this irony. The only people that came out in the media were the women involved, Lauren's roommates. Suddenly, they and everyone at their apt. that night seemed in the clear, and everything they said was considered the truth except for about JR.

We spend a lot of time talking about POI's because we have almost no information about POI visitors, etc...

These are excellent points. IF JR's visitors simply backed up JR's story, yet they were the perps, it would fit.

And similarly, we known nothing about ZO's associates at SW that night.

Essentially, we prove the point that anything a POI says can and will be used against them. Those without names or statements lead us to speculate endlessly.

Yet LE seems to have let ZO & Co... off the hook. So should we?
LE seemed hot on the 5N POI's and so that is what we know more about and arrive at similar conjecture. Yet, sometimes it's the things people don't say which are a clue. Until this Keg discussion resurfaced, I'd not thought about how JR's visitors were not inculded at all in his very detailed statements. There is something wrong with that. Very early discussions about LS at CR/MB's and transition to JR's around 3:30am indicated that others were present. Since that time it's as though those "others present" no longer exist due to lack of information. This is also a subject that PI's left alone as well. They lead us right up the faceplant but no real analysis or audit of CR/MB's and JR's place. So maybe this is a line they could not cross with LE?

As for HT, etc... didn't find anything useful in those statements, did you?

 

[Ixchel13]

We spend a lot of time talking about POI's because we have almost no information about POI visitors, etc...

These are excellent points. IF JR's visitors simply backed up JR's story, yet they were the perps, it would fit.

And similarly, we known nothing about ZO's associates at SW that night.

Essentially, we prove the point that anything a POI says can and will be used against them. Those without names or statements lead us to speculate endlessly.

Yet LE seems to have let ZO & Co... off the hook. So should we?
LE seemed hot on the 5N POI's and so that is what we know more about and arrive at similar conjecture. Yet, sometimes it's the things people don't say which are a clue. Until this Keg discussion resurfaced, I'd not thought about how JR's visitors were not inculded at all in his very detailed statements. There is something wrong with that. Very early discussions about LS at CR/MB's and transition to JR's around 3:30am indicated that others were present. Since that time it's as though those "others present" no longer exist due to lack of information. This is also a subject that PI's left alone as well. They lead us right up the faceplant but no real analysis or audit of CR/MB's and JR's place. So maybe this is a line they could not cross with LE?

As for HT, etc... didn't find anything useful in those statements, did you?

BBM Not anything useful to Lauren, that's for sure. She backs up both JR and
JW, yet tells us that "this time she just went too far..." In otherwords, she is with MB in the category of protraying Lauren as a party girl, and giving her a mulligan on this is not fair, especially when Blair Wallach's and Mike Beth's parents have some sort of business together. Whether she implied it in a sympathetic manner towards her friend, the implication came out loud and clear.

 

[Ros]

I'm working off of what is known about ZO.

Just why do these 2 non-students live in a mostly student area?

Why do you think that they are not IU students? They are still listed as students in the IU directory.

http://people.iu.edu/index.cgi

 

[Ros]

We spend a lot of time talking about POI's because we have almost no information about POI visitors, etc...

These are excellent points. IF JR's visitors simply backed up JR's story, yet they were the perps, it would fit.

And similarly, we known nothing about ZO's associates at SW that night.

Essentially, we prove the point that anything a POI says can and will be used against them. Those without names or statements lead us to speculate endlessly.

Yet LE seems to have let ZO & Co... off the hook. So should we?
LE seemed hot on the 5N POI's and so that is what we know more about and arrive at similar conjecture. Yet, sometimes it's the things people don't say which are a clue. Until this Keg discussion resurfaced, I'd not thought about how JR's visitors were not inculded at all in his very detailed statements. There is something wrong with that. Very early discussions about LS at CR/MB's and transition to JR's around 3:30am indicated that others were present. Since that time it's as though those "others present" no longer exist due to lack of information. This is also a subject that PI's left alone as well. They lead us right up the faceplant but no real analysis or audit of CR/MB's and JR's place. So maybe this is a line they could not cross with LE?

As for HT, etc... didn't find anything useful in those statements, did you?

There are a number of factors that make me wonder about the visitor(s) at JR's:
1. The absence of "official" information from the Spierers, PI's or LE.
2. The fact that what little information about that existed about them (tweets, blogs, newspaper articles) tends to disappear from the Internet.

It makes me wonder whether a visitor is a prime suspect but there's not enough evidence for an arrest. It is possible that JR saw LS leave, as he has described, but he omitted the fact that she was in the company of one or more of his visitors.

 

[AbbeyR]

BBM why is Lohud excluded?

You're right, it shouldn't be. I just added that because of your earlier post:

If a link has been posted and already conversed about on the threads, every time we bring it up, do we have to site the link?Or just if someone calls you out?

The regulars here are pretty familiar with the key reports on Lauren's case, which happen to be summed up in a few articles. So usually, if people talk about what the PI's said (or whatever) people know the source.

I was really just hoping that people could give a little more context so that it's clear whether they are talking about articles vs. anonymous comments on articles, or second hand info vs. random thoughts and speculation, because people shouldn't have to 'call people out' or ask...

I'm all for checking out rumors, seriously! But I think being upfront about the source or context is the least people should do when they are talking about people who haven't even been named as POI (which I don't think is technically even allowed here, but whatevs)

I'm not a mod though (obviously), I just find it annoying. So, carry on! :cop:

 

[AbbeyR]

There are a number of factors that make me wonder about the visitor(s) at JR's:
1. The absence of "official" information from the Spierers, PI's or LE.
2. The fact that what little information about that existed about them (tweets, blogs, newspaper articles) tends to disappear from the Internet.

It makes me wonder whether a visitor is a prime suspect but there's not enough evidence for an arrest. It is possible that JR saw LS leave, as he has described, but he omitted the fact that she was in the company of one or more of his visitors.

The problem is, this would also happen if the person wasn't there, or was not involved and was not named as a POI, right? And that to me seems more likely than LE, the Spierers, the media and the other POI conspiring to keep the spotlight off a key suspect.

I could be wrong though. I don't follow crime cases like some people here do. Can anyone give me an example of a case with this kind of situation? I.e. where there were named POI, but the suspect ended up being someone who belonged to the same group but was never mentioned as a POI (or at all) until the arrest?

If we actually had confirmation that the out of town person was at JR's that night, I would have a lot more questions.

 

[imkeylime]

The problem is, this would also happen if the person wasn't there, or was not involved and was not named as a POI, right? And that to me seems more likely than LE, the Spierers, the media and the other POI conspiring to keep the spotlight off a key suspect.

I could be wrong though. I don't follow crime cases like some people here do. Can anyone give me an example of a case with this kind of situation? I.e. where there were named POI, but the suspect ended up being someone who belonged to the same group but was never mentioned as a POI (or at all) until the arrest?

If we actually had confirmation that the out of town person was at JR's that night, I would have a lot more questions.

While the cases aren't at all similar, and no arrest has been made, Christopher Busch was briefly questioned in the OCCK (Oakland County Child Killer) case and not mentioned again for 30 years, when he became a suspect. In the meantime, bloody ligatures found at his suicide scene, the year after the killings stopped, disappeared. Bye bye DNA. I believe a "team" committed the OCCK crimes, but Busch was known to be part of a pornographic ring (pedophiles) yet not focused on until recently. He was also the son of a high-profile General Motors executive (chief financial officer type).

Yes, I'm suggesting coverup. I really can't fathom that happening in modern-day Bloomington, though. While I believe DB was in Bloomington (I saw the Runcible Spoon tweet), he either has an alibi or is on LE's radar and we don't know it. JMO.

 

[akh]

I asked about this the other day and I'm nearly certain someone posted info saying the incident at SW was making an argument about LS. It probably came from the PI's, maybe in the 2012 LoHud summary article and IIRC it went so far as paraphrasing the incident. Probably in the last thread if someone can find it.

So, the idea that the SW altercation is a mystery might need to be changed to questioning if the public story about SW is true or not.

 

[Ros]

The problem is, this would also happen if the person wasn't there, or was not involved and was not named as a POI, right? And that to me seems more likely than LE, the Spierers, the media and the other POI conspiring to keep the spotlight off a key suspect.

I could be wrong though. I don't follow crime cases like some people here do. Can anyone give me an example of a case with this kind of situation? I.e. where there were named POI, but the suspect ended up being someone who belonged to the same group but was never mentioned as a POI (or at all) until the arrest?

If we actually had confirmation that the out of town person was at JR's that night, I would have a lot more questions.

Here is a list of sources supporting the idea that JR had a guest from home:

1. "An Internet sleuth later claimed to have seen a tweet that showed Rosenbaum might have been hosting unidentified visitors from Michigan that morning. The tweet, if it did exist, is no longer posted publicly, but reports of it raised questions about what the visitors might know. 'There were other people around,' an attorney for Rosenbaum tells IM. 'And I believe the police have all their names and information.'"

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/Story.aspx?ID=1712477

2. The Runcible Spoon tweet by DB, which I and others on this board, did see.

3. "Salzmann said Rossman was not the last one to see Spierer that morning and three or four others saw her after Rossman."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/0...ompanion-has-no-memory-last-moments-together/

4. A lohud/Journal News article (now gone) in which HT said that JR was not alone, he had a friend/guest from home there that night.