IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[AbbeyR]

People were using dogs, but did LE make an official statement? Like the cell phone ping in Martinsville, no official info, but just like the other "confirmed rumors", it seems the tracking dog info came from unconfirmed sources close to either LE or friends of the dog trackers.

If LE had a confirmed cadaver scent inside anyone's apt., they would have
arrested someone.

I don't know what to think about the rumors about the dogs, but I don't think it's true that if a scent had been detected there would have been an arrest. Google kristin smart and paul flores for an example -- I've posted about this case before. She went missing after she was drunk at a party and PF walked her back to campus. Cadaver dogs picked up a scent in PF's dorm room but KS was never found and there has never been an arrest. It's not enough for charges.

 

[AbbeyR]

You are correct. Snapfade made the post, based on information obtained directly or indirectly from someone in LE.

I just looked this up. For the record, this poster also claimed, in the same post, that dogs tracked Lauren's scent from 5N to Jessie's back door.

I don't doubt that posters here heard these rumors, but I'm skeptical that LE would tell people info about phone records and dogs (and anonymous insider tips in general). JMO, as usual

 

[Ros]

I just looked this up. For the record, this poster also claimed, in the same post, that dogs tracked Lauren's scent from 5N to Jessie's back door.

I don't doubt that posters here heard these rumors, but I'm skeptical that LE would tell people info about phone records and dogs (and anonymous insider tips in general). JMO, as usual

. The OP later added the information that the dog trail was from Smallwood to JW's, and probably her usual route there.

 

[Ros]

In the beginning there were quite a few post about the dumpster behind 5N. Then they checked the landfill. There was constuction going on across the street from 5N at the time. Does anyone know if their dumpsters or dump trucks were checked? Seems to me they could have tossed her in and the workers begin to use it the next day. They wouldn't have any reason to check inside before using it. Would they have dumped at the same landfill?

Early reports said that construction sites were searched. I don't know which sites were searched or exactly when they were searched.
http://m.cbsnews.com/blogsstorysynopsis.rbml?feed_id=71&catid=20069662&videofeed=null

 

[deca]

I thought the implied question was whether construction debris goes to another landfill that wasn't searched. JMO

 

[Kadence]

I thought the implied question was whether construction debris goes to another landfill that wasn't searched. JMO

Thank deca, I had to go back and read doubtingthomas' reply - that is an excellent question as construction debris is usually deposited in a different part of a landfill than household debris. The reason I know this is because my ex was a contractor and I went with him many times to the landfill and we were directed to an area apart from regular household debris. Never thought about it until now - many thanks deca and doubtingthomas! Anyone know if this is the case with the landfill they searched for Lauren?

I would also like to give a "shout out" to Ros, as you are the master of all info on Lauren and kindly provide it, without chiding us that we should remember what was posted over these 30 threads! Thank you so much!

 

[Ros]

I thought the implied question was whether construction debris goes to another landfill that wasn't searched. JMO

Agreed. My point was that one would expect construction dumpsters to be searched as part of a search of construction sites. Construction companies often keep an eye out for inappropriate things in their dumpsters since they have to pay (by mass or volume) to dispose of the construction debris.

 

[Ros]

Thank deca, I had to go back and read doubtingthomas' reply - that is an excellent question as construction debris is usually deposited in a different part of a landfill than household debris. The reason I know this is because my ex was a contractor and I went with him many times to the landfill and we were directed to an area apart from regular household debris. Never thought about it until now - many thanks deca and doubtingthomas! Anyone know if this is the case with the landfill they searched for Lauren?

I would also like to give a "shout out" to Ros, as you are the master of all info on Lauren and kindly provide it, without chiding us that we should remember what was posted over these 30 threads! Thank you so much!

Thanks, but I really do not know the early threads on this board as well as some others who have been here longer. And I don't chide anyone about inaccuracies because I make many mistakes myself.

 

[Ros]

Just curious. Was the lake bed of Griffy searched after the lake was drained?

 

[Ixchel13]

I don't know what to think about the rumors about the dogs, but I don't think it's true that if a scent had been detected there would have been an arrest. Google kristin smart and paul flores for an example -- I've posted about this case before. She went missing after she was drunk at a party and PF walked her back to campus. Cadaver dogs picked up a scent in PF's dorm room but KS was never found and there has never been an arrest. It's not enough for charges.

but it probably would upgrade a POI to an official suspect.

 

[Ixchel13]

I don't know what to think about the rumors about the dogs, but I don't think it's true that if a scent had been detected there would have been an arrest. Google kristin smart and paul flores for an example -- I've posted about this case before. She went missing after she was drunk at a party and PF walked her back to campus. Cadaver dogs picked up a scent in PF's dorm room but KS was never found and there has never been an arrest. It's not enough for charges.

AbbeyR, took your advice and googled the Smart/Flores case, and listened
to a very long report by the sheriff in charge now. Because Flores was the last person to see her, and the cadaver hit on his dorm mattress, he was named a prime suspect. interestingly, even though he supposedly did walk her to within 50 yards of her dorm, again, he supposedly could have walked her all the way, like the 5N POIs, but his dorm was first, so he supposedly didn't.

So I'm still thinking that if they had an actual hit with the cadaver dogs inside JR's, they would all be suspects (5N 3) instead of POIs. IMO, then, she didn't pass inside JRs apt. also, IMO, something could have happened right after she left that the POIs at 5N might know about, but are sticking to their 3 part story ending with her rounding the corner to A) keep themselves out of what happened and B)protect the others involved and not out of friendship, but because the others would turn them in for selling/providing
drugs which could then get their lives threatened by the dealers providing the bulk drugs. All they have to do then is just stick to that story
because afterall, she wouldn't have left any incriminating DNA at JR's. conjecture on my part obv.
In the civil trial against Paul Flores, he took the 5th on every single question, not even admitting to being at the party that many witnesses said he was at and also Kristin was at and left with him and two other witnesses.
Also, Kristin was initially passed out, unconscious in other words, but two people got her up out of the neighbor's lawn and started walking her home.
Then Flores came along and walked with them, and they decided to let him walk her the rest of the way.
So a victim so drunk they passed out got up and walked all the way from off campus to the prime suspect's dorm, he even admits that. Why can't we believe that Lauren was able to walk?

 

[imkeylime]

... In the civil trial against Paul Flores, he took the 5th on every single question, not even admitting to being at the party that many witnesses said he was at and also Kristin was at and left with him and two other witnesses.
Also, Kristin was initially passed out, unconscious in other words, but two people got her up out of the neighbor's lawn and started walking her home.
Then Flores came along and walked with them, and they decided to let him walk her the rest of the way.
So a victim so drunk they passed out got up and walked all the way from off campus to the prime suspect's dorm, he even admits that. Why can't we believe that Lauren was able to walk?

Respectfully snipped by me. What you're describing more closely resembles LS walking back to 5N with CR than LS walking home to SW alone, IMO. Two people were helping Kristen, and then those two people passed her off to Flores, per the above account, unless I'm missing something.

What bothers me is why someone wouldn't walk with LS if she was incapacitated enough for MB to take her to JR's in the first place. I'm not even sure I understand why MB didn't walk her home ... because he didn't know her well enough? Or maybe because CR (or LS?) did remember what happened at SW and shared that? IDK.

I will concede it's possible JR gave LS something to sober her up, but that "something" might have had the potential to cause more harm, given her condition and long QT syndrome. Again, JMO.

 

[sammi89]

Respectfully snipped by me. What you're describing more closely resembles LS walking back to 5N with CR than LS walking home to SW alone, IMO. Two people were helping Kristen, and then those two people passed her off to Flores, per the above account, unless I'm missing something.

What bothers me is why someone wouldn't walk with LS if she was incapacitated enough for MB to take her to JR's in the first place. I'm not even sure I understand why MB didn't walk her home ... because he didn't know her well enough? Or maybe because CR (or LS?) did remember what happened at SW and shared that? IDK.

I will concede it's possible JR gave LS something to sober her up, but that "something" might have had the potential to cause more harm, given her condition and long QT syndrome. Again, JMO.

Bolded by me. Just to add, although I think you actually said it in the first paragraph, not only was LS incapacitated enough that MB took her to JR's, but she had to be helped to 5N by CR. Some accounts of the Smallwood encounter seem to be saying that LS was too incapacitated to make any decision about staying or leaving Smallwood at that point, and CR sort of decided for her.

Even if MB went back to his own place, it just seems odd that both CR and MB seem to be acknowledging she at least needed assistance going places by their actions, e.g. Actually helping her to these places, and MB only took her a few doors down! Yet JR came to a different conclusion: that she was perfectly able to walk herself home; of course, he decided this only after administering his own "walking test" or whatever test it was lol.

imkeylime's point made me think: isn't it odd that MB decided to take her just a few doors down, yet JR thought she was capable of walking back to Smallwood herself? Especially if MB's taking her to JR's was because he was worried about her well-being.

Of course, all of this is said with the benefit of knowing the outcome. However, I think even if LS had made it home and nothing had ever happened, the reaction would still be, "she was so bad MB had to walk her down a few doors down, yet you (JR) had her walk all the way home alone with no phone?! Thank god nothing happened!" Maybe they'd laugh it off too, but even if LS had made it home, I still don't think people would think that was a good decision or a normal decision.

 

[doubtingthomas]

I have been searching and have not been able to find anything that says JR saw LS walking around the corner. I found where he said he gave her the walk test and that he saw her walk out, but the only thing I have found is him saying he saw her round the corner. Rounding the corner could mean walking, crawling, being carried, riding in a vehicle. Not saying he didn't see her walking round the corner, I just haven't found that. Just me being curious.

 

[Ros]

I have been searching and have not been able to find anything that says JR saw LS walking around the corner. I found where he said he gave her the walk test and that he saw her walk out, but the only thing I have found is him saying he saw her round the corner. Rounding the corner could mean walking, crawling, being carried, riding in a vehicle. Not saying he didn't see her walking round the corner, I just haven't found that. Just me being curious.

We don't really know exactly what JR said to whom, only the information released via LE, PIs, or attorneys and then passed on through the media, which may phrase things differently than what JR actually said.

Here's another version: "One of those friends, Jay Rosenbaum, told police he saw her leaving the building and turning the corner of North College Avenue on her way home about 4:15 a.m."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-15-missing-IU-student-Lauren-Spierer_n.htm

I have wondered whether he actually said that she was alone when she turned the corner.

 

[imkeylime]

We don't really know exactly what JR said to whom, only the information released via LE, PIs, or attorneys and then passed on through the media, which may phrase things differently than what JR actually said.

Here's another version: "One of those friends, Jay Rosenbaum, told police he saw her leaving the building and turning the corner of North College Avenue on her way home about 4:15 a.m."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-15-missing-IU-student-Lauren-Spierer_n.htm

I have wondered whether he actually said that she was alone when she turned the corner.

That's an interesting "I wonder" ... whether he said she was alone. I assume he meant she left on her own accord and without company ... and that he didn't see her encounter anyone else before or upon turning the corner. If that's not the case, it could certainly change things ...

I do wonder if that's where private vs. public polygraphs can get dicey. I really don't want to stir up the whole polygraph debate, since I'm not educated enough on the subject. But how specific a question has to be answered interests me, if that makes sense.

 

[AbbeyR]

AbbeyR, took your advice and googled the Smart/Flores case, and listened
to a very long report by the sheriff in charge now. Because Flores was the last person to see her, and the cadaver hit on his dorm mattress, he was named a prime suspect. interestingly, even though he supposedly did walk her to within 50 yards of her dorm, again, he supposedly could have walked her all the way, like the 5N POIs, but his dorm was first, so he supposedly didn't.

So I'm still thinking that if they had an actual hit with the cadaver dogs inside JR's, they would all be suspects (5N 3) instead of POIs.

But do police even use the term suspect anymore? Kristin Smart disappeared in 1996. This was also the year that Richard Jewell's named was leaked as a suspect in the Olympic park bombing in Atlanta by the FBI. He was later exonerated and sued a bunch of news organizations, etc. for libel. Since then, LE seems to avoid using the term suspect (at least until someone is arrested, I think?) and instead, LE and the media usually use the term POI, which may or may not mean the person is a (prime/) suspect. (I learned about this all here in early threads on Lauren's case, but can't remember who to give credit to)

This seems to be backed up by what I've read online:

Jim Kouri, a spokesman for the National Association of Chiefs of Police, says "person of interest" often is a euphemism for "suspect."

"If it's a suspect and you say 'person of interest,' you're using the euphemism to avoid problems down the line," says Kouri, a former New York housing police officer.

Even Corey Rossman's lawyer was quoted saying he didn't know the difference between the two terms:

"The difference between a person of interest or a suspect, I've never been able to quite figure out what that is," Salzmann said.

 

[Ros]

Peyton Riekhof, age 18, and her car, missing in the area of Fishers, IN.

http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/indiana/fishers-police-search-for-missing-teen1374246103775

 

[Ros]

http://www.wthr.com/story/22885287/2013/07/19/plainfield-police

A body was found in a car in a pond. Police giving an update on the Morgan Johnson case later today.

 

[akh]

POI is just a fancier term for suspect on one hand, and a more encompassing term for persons that LE believe could have direct information (or even indirect information in some cases). Since it's a bigger net, so to speak, then it's not meant to have the darker connotations that "suspect" would have. And because of that, LE can use the term more freely and argue they aren't labeling anyone as 'suspects' (which people and the press came to take as meaning 'all but charged with the crime' or 'soon to be charged').