IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Ixchel13]

Absolutely! Ever since the PI video came out, and visualizing all of this, it's exactly the sense that I got. Before the PI video, there were a wide range of theories floating. But with these details, her Condition became very clear... and why the idea of her ever leaving 5N if she ever made it (not on her own two feet) does not make sense. And in particular MB's unbelievable characterizations of Lauren being in good shape. He said he and LS put CR to bed. Nonsense! Not in any report of MB's statements nor his lawyer's statements do they mention Lauren's serious injuries. But JR did...
So, you have to wonder if MB even saw her. If so, he didn't want to take a good look.

I am going to to disagree because IMO, LE must have some sort of forensic/camera evidence that Lauren was alive during her last visit to 5N. If there was a death scent at 5N, they would have least been arrested and then let go for lack of evidence, IDK. Our LE here is not that lenient, no matter how rich or powerful one's family might be.

And again, in no defense of anyone involved, but trying to fit anything these stoned/drunk out of their minds kids did into a logical explanation is like herding cats. Not going to happen. MB was working on a paper? ha,ha. He probably had one due, and that's what he's clinging to, that true fact, but what was he doing over at JR's at 3 a.m.? Borrowing his notes?

Everyone involved, is running on their recollection of the night's events based on maybe the same way Lauren would have remembered it had she not been some sort of casualty of those events. She was smaller than everyone involved, so perhaps whatever they were taking hit her a lot harder. Unless she was rufied at Kilroy's.

That brings me to the 2 or 3 accounts in the IDS during the last year about women being rufied and raped after being in a "downtown Bar," the last being an account of an EMPLOYEE raping another employee. I would love to know, am crazy to know, which downtown bar this is happening/is suspected of happening, in. Someone feels very confident to be doing this, IMO this person could be a suspect in Lauren's case if we could only know where he works/if he works, at which "downtown bar."

 

[Jupiter812]

Following up on a discussion from a few days ago...

Count me as one who has doubts about Tony Gatto. If I remember correctly, he claimed to be some sort of award-winning journalist. So I searched for him (at that time) to see what sort of credentials he was bringing to the table. The only thing I found was the LS-related blog (which subsequently covered a missing kid in NYC and something regarding an airplane, if memory serves). (Ok, I searched again. It looks like he has switched to twitter as his medium of choice. Says: 'Award-winning journalist. Currently Assignment Editor at WPIX-TV/Blogger/Social Media news guy. Veteran of CBS and ABC News.' But no sign of his CBS/ABC history.)

So, I'd say that: 1) He used a pseudonym (either on his blog, or while he was an 'award winning journalist' at CBS/ABC), or 2) He is a small-time guy with some minor 'award' trying to strike out on his own, or 3) He is some anonymous schmo with invented credentials and has dreams of being an investigative journalist, or 4) He was someone connected to the case looking to influence the investigation.

I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I take his 'evidence' with a really big grain of salt.



On the other hand, the biggest and most controversial contribution TG made to the LS storyline is the anonymous 3:38am bartender witness. LE and the PEs dismiss this since it seems to contradict the video evidence. But what if TG and his witness told the truth?

Perhaps after LS's videotaped falls, when she and CR managed to move out of camera range, their forward progress stalled for an extended period. Then, after 3:30, CR slung her back over his shoulder and encountered the bartender witness...

Or perhaps, CR realized he had a problem he couldn't deal with and stashed her in the shadows and went for help. While he was gone, the other guys came upon her belongings dropped in the alley and put them on the back porch rail, but did not spot LS. Meanwhile, CR managed to find a friend (with dark skin and pointy sideburns) to go pick up LS from where he left her...

Purely speculation. Just conjecturing possibilities to fill the gaps in the timeline.

- John

I read this post shortly after it posted. Of course it made sense and I raised my eyebrows at the possibility of CR "stashing" Lauren. Yesterday, out of "nowhere" (seemingly), a clear image of him doing this came to mind and vivid as if it were real.

Also, I remembered something that raised my hinky meter about Gatto at the time. Anyone remember his friend and poster/commenter Netty? She knew him personally and acted like his sidekick, bolstering him and his position on his blog.

 

[Jacobite]

Tony Gatto was with WCBS 880 AM in New York. Netty was involved in the prosecution of Michael Jackson.
Her husband is Tony's peer. I, think Gatto had his boots stuffed in the Lauren Spierer case.
There are a couple characters who seem to want their own names published in a story about Lauren.
One of them had more than a dozen handles on the internet. The other is connected to a Bloomington cult. I think they threw Tony off.
I think everyone discredits his bar witness too. Only the part about Lauren taking a face slam is kept from her account. Strange how we pick and choose what to believe from witnesses.

 

[Jacobite]

And, I believe Long QT Syndrome is a wild card that must be considered.

 

[AbbeyR]

I think everyone discredits his bar witness too. Only the part about Lauren taking a face slam is kept from her account. Strange how we pick and choose what to believe from witnesses.

BPD didn't discredit the witness -- They confirmed there was one, but said the time was wrong. The PI's didn't discredit the witness either...? There are (by Tony's own admission) inconsistencies with his version of her statement.

p.s. confused about 'Netty' -- So who is this in real life (and how do you know)?

 

[Chuz Life]

So, one visit to T&C it's caught on camera (we don't know exact time? LE does, wish they would update their timeline then... )

According to the PI's, lauren and Corey were seen visiting T&C (Zoe Camp's) at least once and I agree, the authorities should update their timeline with that information. Doing so, would end a lot of un-necessary speculation.

and it all takes place within 3 minutes correct?

Yes and no. The Private investigators say that it took no more than a minute or so for Corey to try to get Zoe to let them in. That part is correct. However, we don't know how long they took to get to her room, what time they were there or how long they stayed in that immediate area after they left.

Then that puts to rest any sighting, cameras, witnesses or activity with LS or CR after LS's 2:51 am face down exit from the alley. The only exception being MB and JR.

VV - you should watch the PI's flash video again.

According to them, Corey and Lauren tried to get to Zoe Camp's apartment AFTER they came out of the alley behind College Apartments @ 2:51 am.

Not before.

You seem to be thinking (still) that they tried to reach Zoe Camp's apartment before they went north through the alley from 10th Street... when the PI's are saying that it was after they emerged from the alley (@ 2:51) - that they "went to the room of the four girls."

You have to listen to the video very closely to catch that.

Edit: This (the PI's claim) is illustrated on the map as the PI's indicated it.

 

[Chuz Life]

Suggest adding the time (~3:00am) that AA and AR (at least I think those are the initials) who found / saw the wallet and keys. Would be interested to know the location of their apt (if known) in that building.

And perhaps the 3:30 call from MB and 4:15 calls from JR's and 4:30 (fictional) exit of LS

Thanks. I've tried to not put anything on the map with a specific time or location that I can't support with a link or some way to indicate that it's unverified.

If you have links that would help me pinpoint a specific location for where the witnesses say they found them (and the time) I would like to have that for my archives used to support the map.

I've also always appreciated btowns maps... I'm wondering... if with all of the national security satellite photography going on... there should be very clear images available of this map area say around 3:00am and every 10 minute interval thereafter.

I'm afraid the satellites are not in place nor enabled for that 24X7 - not even for National Security. Also, with no sunlight, possible cloud cover etc. It just wouldn't be practical.

Frankly, I (personally) wouldn't want to live under something that creepy either.

Mapping and aerial images like the ones used in these maps are usually projects which are commissioned for a greater purpose and the maps them become available and useful for secondary purposes.

 

[Jacobite]

BPD didn't discredit the witness -- They confirmed there was one, but said the time was wrong. The PI's didn't discredit the witness either...? There are (by Tony's own admission) inconsistencies with his version of her statement.

p.s. confused about 'Netty' -- So who is this in real life (and how do you know)?

She said she just got off work when she had really been visiting her boyfriend. She said she was sure it was 3:38 when the time was really 2:46 through 2:48 AM. She said the Mystery Man had dark skin when it turns out he was Cory Rossman. She also said Lauren fell at the corner of 10th and College where there are no cameras.

I don't think she is a liar. She just didn't remember things clearly.And, I think the detectives saw the fall on video. But, it must be further west on 10th Street where there is a camera.

Netty is a nickname for Annette Daniel http://www.linkedin.com/in/nettywebsites

 

[Jacobite]

The NSA is military. Even if the NSA has data that could help in this case, they are not allowed to use it for civilion law enforcement.

 

[Jacobite]

How do they know that Lauren and Corey visited Zoe Camps building. She was asleep. Did a camera get a real good picture of them pushing a button to buzz her? Or, did they ring her on Corey's cell at the moment they stopped by?

I'd bet they used Corey's cell and they are waiting for an answer on her steps when the bar witness sees Lauren fall. I think ringing Zoe Camp and the bar witness both happen around 2:46 AM.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'd bet they used Corey's cell and they are waiting for an answer on her steps when the bar witness sees Lauren fall. I think ringing Zoe Camp and the bar witness both happen around 2:46 AM.

Again, according to Bo Dietl's private investigators (flash video) - Corey and Lauren were seen on video trying to get Zoe Camp to let them in or at least come to the door AFTER Corey and Lauren exited the alley near the vacant lot and after 2:51 am.

 

[AbbeyR]

@Chuzlife

Are you basing that on the fact that they say "And then Lauren and Corey headed up the alley"? Because as Bx2 noted, this soundclip is repeated twice.

Or on something else? (Sorry if this is obvious - I've watched the video several times but not along with the map, yet)

 

[Ixchel13]

]I was in disbelief about how fast one location could be walked to from another[/B]. I verified some of the times with people who said they have actually walked those routes and I have also used this (I.U. provided) distance calculator.

I wanted to add something too.

The "~" symbol in front of a recorded time is to indicate an approximate time and the "@" symbol is to indicate an actual or recorded time.

I hope this helps with reading and understanding the map.

Not only are these buildings a minute apart consecutively, so 3 min. from SW to 5N. but you can stand outside SW and see the Sheriff's Dept,1/2block to the right. Day in, day out, sheriffs and lawyers everywhere.

 

[Chuz Life]

@Chuzlife

Are you basing that on the fact that they say "And then Lauren and Corey headed up the alley"? Because as Bx2 noted, this soundclip is repeated twice.

Or on something else? (Sorry if this is obvious - I've watched the video several times but not along with the map, yet)

That's a good idea, Abbey.

I'm going to do that myself - as soon as possible - to check my own work.

I'll brb.

EDIT: Having just listened to Bo Dietl's flash video (timeline) and following along with the map, I have to say it's still a fairly accurate depiction of what they claiming took place. Especially since the Bar Manager claimed the stairs she was talking about was near the 'clock' at 10th Street.

I wish the PI's would have included everything they said verbally on the 3D map of her routes that they themselves created.

 

[Ixchel13]

Tony Gatto was with WCBS 880 AM in New York. Netty was involved in the prosecution of Michael Jackson.
Her husband is Tony's peer. I, think Gatto had his boots stuffed in the Lauren Spierer case.
There are a couple characters who seem to want their own names published in a story about Lauren.
One of them had more than a dozen handles on the internet. The other is connected to a Bloomington cult. I think they threw Tony off.
I think everyone discredits his bar witness too. Only the part about Lauren taking a face slam is kept from her account. Strange how we pick and choose what to believe from witnesses.

BBM exactly. For all we know, someone could have on purpose caused the head slam outside of 10th and College. Did they say Zoe had 3 other roomies?
IMO, you've got 3 or 4 cliques lying for each other; then singularly, you've all these people lying just for themselves.
i.e. take Hadar. First, she's lying for herself--stayed around home all night just drinking wine and watching part of the game down the hall. Then, she
possibly lies for both JR and JW, saying neither one could possibly have hurt Lauren. She possibly planted her stash of coke in Lauren's room. She could have possibly given Lauren's phone to someone. JMO, she's sneaky. She's lying by omission about the part she played that night.
It's too exhausting to go through each person, but they are all lying and each person, multiple lies. If, if, if she left JR's then so many other things could have happened in the area of 10th and College.

 

[Ixchel13]

She said she just got off work when she had really been visiting her boyfriend. She said she was sure it was 3:38 when the time was really 2:46 through 2:48 AM. She said the Mystery Man had dark skin when it turns out he was Cory Rossman. She also said Lauren fell at the corner of 10th and College where there are no cameras.

I don't think she is a liar. She just didn't remember things clearly.And, I think the detectives saw the fall on video. But, it must be further west on 10th Street where there is a camera.

Netty is a nickname for Annette Daniel http://www.linkedin.com/in/nettywebsites

the "witness" sounds like someone who was caught on tape with Lauren, became a POI who then lied to LE and has not been cleared.

 

[Ixchel13]

How do they know that Lauren and Corey visited Zoe Camps building. She was asleep. Did a camera get a real good picture of them pushing a button to buzz her? Or, did they ring her on Corey's cell at the moment they stopped by?

I'd bet they used Corey's cell and they are waiting for an answer on her steps when the bar witness sees Lauren fall. I think ringing Zoe Camp and the bar witness both happen around 2:46 AM.

I think the bar manager came out when CR and LS rang Zoe. JMO, she knows Zoe.

 

[Jupiter812]

How do they know that Lauren and Corey visited Zoe Camps building. She was asleep. Did a camera get a real good picture of them pushing a button to buzz her? Or, did they ring her on Corey's cell at the moment they stopped by?

I'd bet they used Corey's cell and they are waiting for an answer on her steps when the bar witness sees Lauren fall. I think ringing Zoe Camp and the bar witness both happen around 2:46 AM.

I think so too. I think it was a stopping off point because they couldn't make it to 5N quick enough--due to Lauren's condition or they were being followed or chased.

 

[monkey222]

Do we know if any of ZCs roomates heard or saw? any inkling of activity..ie..door knock, cell ph text..ringing..of attempts to have one of them answer door? Were all four in apt? Out at bar..on way home? Any reports on this subject??

 

[Chuz Life]

Do we know if any of ZCs roomates heard or saw? any inkling of activity..ie..door knock, cell ph text..ringing..of attempts to have one of them answer door? Were all four in apt? Out at bar..on way home? Any reports on this subject??

According to Zoe, they were there and sleeping (at least) when Corey came to the door.

But, isn't it interesting that none of them have come forward to either say... "yeah that's what happened" or "that girl's talking out of her head?"

The PI's seem to be saying that the attempted visit was recorded by the cameras... If that's true, it not only supports Zoe Camp's claim but it also calls into question the authorities reasons for leaving it out of their timeline.