IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Ixchel13]

I have soooo many questions for the bar manager witness.

Here are my top two.

1. What time did you get off work?
2. What time does the 'boy' you were visiting recall you being there and leaving?

3. Where do you work?

 

[Ixchel13]

The 10 POI thing is silly. It was a number that was said in the first few days after Lauren went missing, after which LE said it was just a ballpark number that was evolving as they went forward. There are only 4 POI who have been named, and who are obviously the focus of the investigation. That hasn't changed since Day One.

- Corey Rossman, Mike Beth, Jay Rosenbaum and Jesse Wolff

And the bottom line is, there is not any evidence to suggest she ever left 5 N, the people last with her have told conflicting stories and refuse to fully cooperate with the investigation.

Any theory is worth considering, but some scenarios are obviously more likely than others.

NOT that I would ever defend MB or CR, but the other "friend" could just as easily be paraphrasing and fuzzily recalling.

 

[Ixchel13]

The 10 POI thing is silly. It was a number that was said in the first few days after Lauren went missing, after which LE said it was just a ballpark number that was evolving as they went forward. There are only 4 POI who have been named, and who are obviously the focus of the investigation. That hasn't changed since Day One.

- Corey Rossman, Mike Beth, Jay Rosenbaum and Jesse Wolff

And the bottom line is, there is not any evidence to suggest she ever left 5 N, the people last with her have told conflicting stories and refuse to fully cooperate with the investigation.

Any theory is worth considering, but some scenarios are obviously more likely than others.

Some of the most likely, logical theories could be just as wrong as the far out ones. At this point, only the guilty people really know what happened.

 

[Ixchel13]

Yeah, I don't know what all this is about ZC suddenly, but there is plenty of media out there that indicates the time directly before Rossman and Lauren stopped by ZC's apartment, the time while at ZC's apartment, and the time from them leaving ZC's until they entering into the alley on the way the 5N is all on video and the PI's give a pretty full narrative of all of these events-from watching the video. The fact that Lauren and Cory stopped by ZC's has been out there since pretty much the beginning and I don't think ZC has inserted herself as much as she has just elected to speak publicly and offer what details of the evening she could, but none of these details had been withheld from investigators.
http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

yeah, a woman isn't capable of jealousy, duplicity or murder.

a woman could never be a narcissistic sociopath, right?:worms:

 

[Chuz Life]

I have soooo many questions for the bar manager witness.

Here are my top two.

1. What time did you get off work?
2. What time does the 'boy' you were visiting recall you being there and leaving?

3. Where do you work?

Exactly.

It's incredible that it doesn't look like enough was done by the investigators to substantiate the Bar Manager's story and to get her to fully consider the time she gave.

Bo Dietl's timeline and account points to that event at being before 2:48 am and before CR and LS travel up the alley and then back to ZC's place before going on to 5N.

This might also fit the police timeline - except that it (the police time line) leaves off at 2:51 am. and it makes no mention of a stop at ZC's apartment at all.

If the Bar Manager's time (3:38 am) is correct? That means they continued South after being turned away by ZC.

If the Bar manager's time (3:38 am) was incorrect? It supports at least some of the claims at 5N.

What's interesting too, is the fact that Bo Dietl and his PI's are claiming the videos show more AFTER 2:51 am, than the police are willing to say.

In fact, Bo Dietl's guys indicate that the attempted visit to Zoe Camp's room was caught on tape and it was AFTER they were seen on the steps, fell over and carried up the alley between Village and College apts.... That means it was after 2:51 am.

They claim it took about a minute.

 

[imkeylime]

Yeah, I don't know what all this is about ZC suddenly, but there is plenty of media out there that indicates the time directly before Rossman and Lauren stopped by ZC's apartment, the time while at ZC's apartment, and the time from them leaving ZC's until they entering into the alley on the way the 5N is all on video and the PI's give a pretty full narrative of all of these events-from watching the video. The fact that Lauren and Cory stopped by ZC's has been out there since pretty much the beginning and I don't think ZC has inserted herself as much as she has just elected to speak publicly and offer what details of the evening she could, but none of these details had been withheld from investigators.
http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

To me, the mystery surrounding LS and CR stopping by ZC's again centers around that "Why?" again. Given LS' condition at the time, it's kind of hard to surmise. I personally don't see it as a means to party, as I think CR would have preferred to be alone with her.

It seems like other options might be: 1) because CR needed a place for her to rest/crash or a place to try and revive her, 2) CR and/or LS wanted to score something or, conversely, find something, 3) CR and/or LS thought they were being followed and wanted to get out of plain sight, 4) CR and/or LS thought someone might be there whom they wanted/needed to see. Maybe somebody else can expand on this list or help make sense of it?

 

[Chuz Life]

To me, the mystery surrounding LS and CR stopping by ZC's again centers around that "Why?" again. Given LS' condition at the time, it's kind of hard to surmise. I personally don't see it as a means to party, as I think CR would have preferred to be alone with her.

It seems like other options might be: 1) because CR needed a place for her to rest/crash or a place to try and revive her, 2) CR and/or LS wanted to score something or, conversely, find something, 3) CR and/or LS thought they were being followed and wanted to get out of plain sight, 4) CR and/or LS thought someone might be there whom they wanted/needed to see. Maybe somebody else can expand on this list or help make sense of it?

I think Corey was (at least initially) turned away from 5N.
I think Lauren was in serious trouble physically and everyone knew it and with that he went to ZC's room out of desperation.

:twocents: only.

 

[UncleJohn]

Following up on a discussion from a few days ago...

Count me as one who has doubts about Tony Gatto. If I remember correctly, he claimed to be some sort of award-winning journalist. So I searched for him (at that time) to see what sort of credentials he was bringing to the table. The only thing I found was the LS-related blog (which subsequently covered a missing kid in NYC and something regarding an airplane, if memory serves). (Ok, I searched again. It looks like he has switched to twitter as his medium of choice. Says: 'Award-winning journalist. Currently Assignment Editor at WPIX-TV/Blogger/Social Media news guy. Veteran of CBS and ABC News.' But no sign of his CBS/ABC history.)

So, I'd say that: 1) He used a pseudonym (either on his blog, or while he was an 'award winning journalist' at CBS/ABC), or 2) He is a small-time guy with some minor 'award' trying to strike out on his own, or 3) He is some anonymous schmo with invented credentials and has dreams of being an investigative journalist, or 4) He was someone connected to the case looking to influence the investigation.

I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I take his 'evidence' with a really big grain of salt.



On the other hand, the biggest and most controversial contribution TG made to the LS storyline is the anonymous 3:38am bartender witness. LE and the PEs dismiss this since it seems to contradict the video evidence. But what if TG and his witness told the truth?

Perhaps after LS's videotaped falls, when she and CR managed to move out of camera range, their forward progress stalled for an extended period. Then, after 3:30, CR slung her back over his shoulder and encountered the bartender witness...

Or perhaps, CR realized he had a problem he couldn't deal with and stashed her in the shadows and went for help. While he was gone, the other guys came upon her belongings dropped in the alley and put them on the back porch rail, but did not spot LS. Meanwhile, CR managed to find a friend (with dark skin and pointy sideburns) to go pick up LS from where he left her...

Purely speculation. Just conjecturing possibilities to fill the gaps in the timeline.

- John

 

[Chuz Life]

Following up on a discussion from a few days ago...

<snipped? ... the biggest and most controversial contribution TG made to the LS storyline is the anonymous 3:38am bartender witness. LE and the PEs dismiss this since it seems to contradict the video evidence. But what if TG and his witness told the truth?<snipped>

That's where my mind has been as well.

Perhaps after LS's videotaped falls, when she and CR managed to move out of camera range, their forward progress stalled for an extended period. Then, after 3:30, CR slung her back over his shoulder and encountered the bartender witness...

It wouldn't have been for all that long. According to Bo Dietl and the other PI's, CR and LS were seen on tape AFTER 2:51 am - trying to get Zoe Camp to let them in at her 10th & College apartment.

Or perhaps, CR realized he had a problem he couldn't deal with and stashed her in the shadows and went for help. While he was gone, the other guys came upon her belongings dropped in the alley and put them on the back porch rail, but did not spot LS. Meanwhile, CR managed to find a friend (with dark skin and pointy sideburns) to go pick up LS from where he left her... Purely speculation. Just conjecturing possibilities to fill the gaps in the timeline. - John

What you are saying makes sense to me.

I've been up all night crunching numbers myself trying to guestimate how long CR & LS could have been sitting on those steps.

For all the thinkers out there - here's what I have so far.

1. @ 2:42 am. They left Smallwood after LS falling and CR getting punched.
2. According to Bo Dietl's gang, they walked 660 feet North on College Ave to the steps at the South east corner of "10th & College Apts."
3. This is where Dietl's gang says they were seen by the 'Bar Manager'
4. After being asked if LS is okay, the MM? (CR) takes LS another 160 ft. into the alley.
5. They are seen entering the alley @ 2:48 am only 6 minutes total after they left Smallwood.

Given their condition, the circumstances and the fact that Lauren was barefoot... realistically, how long could they have rested on those steps?

Things are just not adding up for me.

 

[monkey222]

Rewatching Lohud timeline video: two points..1) I interpret stairs sitting head slam to be at one of those houses with grass with rails. Not the new stairs at end of new apt building. 2) Chuz..did you take into consideration the incline of sidewalks..alleys..in calculating feet per minute. Lohud video sure looks like inclines going to..fro apts. Unless it is camera angle.

 

[Chuz Life]

Rewatching Lohud timeline video: two points..1) I interpret stairs sitting head slam to be at one of those houses with grass with rails. Not the new stairs at end of new apt building. 2) Chuz..did you take into consideration the incline of sidewalks..alleys..in calculating feet per minute. Lohud video sure looks like inclines going to..fro apts. Unless it is camera angle.

The map I posted earlier needs to be updated, Monkey222.

The times and distances were off (though not by too much) and that was partly because I was not accounting for when CR and LS stopped at the steps (as claimed by Bo Dietl's bunch). So, please don't rely too heavily on that old map. A newer more accurate one will be posted soon, I hope.

As for the distances and such... I found this link from I.U. which is available for students to calculate their time and distances for classes and such. The calculated times are very much inline with what some who have actually walked that area are telling me.

P.S. - as far as the stairs go... the bar manager said specifically (in other reports) that it was the ones near the clock at 10th @ college. The stairs shown in the flash video (Dietl's) threw me at first too... but those stairs are quite a bit further North - closer to 11th and College ave.

 

[Ixchel13]

Rewatching Lohud timeline video: two points..1) I interpret stairs sitting head slam to be at one of those houses with grass with rails. Not the new stairs at end of new apt building. 2) Chuz..did you take into consideration the incline of sidewalks..alleys..in calculating feet per minute. Lohud video sure looks like inclines going to..fro apts. Unless it is camera angle.

bbm. that would have them emerging from the alley, at 2:51, then turning sharply left instead of diagonally across lot towards JRs. Then to the sidewalk of Morton St., turn left again and you're at the north end of 10th and College Village, with the townhomes that have the stairs and rail, that would make sense, if they went to ZCs apt that way. Those townhomes have basement garages that I think open up to the alley in question. The bar mgr witness said she doubled back to see if Lauren was ok. maybe that's when she saw the clock.

Perhaps at the beginning, LE received 1, 2, or 3 conflicting stories, and then decided to go with the most likely, using the emergence from the alley, the most reliable scenario, and only the last to see her.

Re-reading CS's last post on their family update website, says that she constantly goes through the last reported events of that night, and it comes down to someone knows but won't tell what happened.

IMO, this is not a case where the simplest answer must be true. As far as women being involved, from the get-go I've never believed it was just guys.
Or just students from out of town, involved.

When ZC intentionally or unintentionally reinserts herself into the story, she does so out of guilt, and she states that. She feels guilty that she didn't answer her door. But she also is certain that JR is innocent. She used the word scapegoat, which usually denotes that someone is taking the blame for someone else's actions.

Was ZC friends with MB I wonder. People have brought up, why would JR readily admit being the last to see Lauren? Because he was, and others knew it , LE has said others were present but they won't say who the others are! They made a last call to a guy, but LE won't say to whom

Why would anyone say there is no one else but the 5N guys and JW?

JR was not the only one to leave the country right after--ZC did too.






























!

 

[Chuz Life]

bbm. that would have them emerging from the alley, at 2:51, then turning sharply left instead of diagonally across lot towards JRs. Then to the sidewalk of Morton St., turn left again and you're at the north end of 10th and College Village, with the townhomes that have the stairs and rail, that would make sense, if they went to ZCs apt that way. Those townhomes have basement garages that I think open up to the alley in question. The bar mgr witness said she doubled back to see if Lauren was ok. maybe that's when she saw the clock.

IX, I don't think the village apartments were mentioned in any timelines.

Zoe Camp's place was in "10th & College" apartments, which would have been to the right (East) after exiting the alley.

You're right as far as "College VILLAGE" apartments being to the left of (West) of the Alley... But that's not where Zoe Camp lived.

I'm sleep deprived so let me know if I just misread your post.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

yeah, a woman isn't capable of jealousy, duplicity or murder.

a woman could never be a narcissistic sociopath, right?:worms:

You got this from what I said? I must be truly failing in the communication department.

 

[Ixchel13]

You got this from what I said? I must be truly failing in the communication department.

I was just making a point that why shouldn't we discuss the women involved?



You were wondering why we were bringing up Zoe Camp. IMO,
LE should go over each and every person's statements again for motive.
Even CR's neighbor, I mean. again, not defending CR, but why will we automatically believe what his neighbor says? It's like, we won't believe anything the 5N guys say, but we will believe anything anyone else says about them!
To me, it seems like every one of these people is lying about something.

And Hadar keeps getting away with "just drinking wine" that night. Give me a break, she was in the thick of the preparty like everyone else, and again I'll opine that she probably started the altercation by siccing ZO on CR so Lauren wouldn't bring him in their apt.--probably so she could show JW how loyal she was, or was it just plain jealousy?
If so, if she did make sure that Lauren couldn't get in her own apt., then it's her fault that Lauren died. See how that works?
Why shouldn't we wonder why
Lauren wasn't allowed in her own apt and who was the one responsible for that?
See, that kind of thing is something a woman would do. If HT did something like that, then her name should have very definitely been in the civil suit as well.
Willing to bet that both ZC and HT are two of those 10 POI, none of which have been cleared. Got to be some ladies involved in there somewhere.

 

[Dixie811]

I was just making a point that why shouldn't we discuss the women involved?



You were wondering why we were bringing up Zoe Camp. IMO,
LE should go over each and every person's statements again for motive.
Even CR's neighbor, I mean. again, not defending CR, but why will we automatically believe what his neighbor says? It's like, we won't believe anything the 5N guys say, but we will believe anything anyone else says about them!
To me, it seems like every one of these people is lying about something.

And Hadar keeps getting away with "just drinking wine" that night. Give me a break, she was in the thick of the preparty like everyone else, and again I'll opine that she probably started the altercation by siccing ZO on CR so Lauren wouldn't bring him in their apt.--probably so she could show JW how loyal she was, or was it just plain jealousy?
If so, if she did make sure that Lauren couldn't get in her own apt., then it's her fault that Lauren died. See how that works?
Why shouldn't we wonder why
Lauren wasn't allowed in her own apt and who was the one responsible for that?
See, that kind of thing is something a woman would do. If HT did something like that, then her name should have very definitely been in the civil suit as well.
Willing to bet that both ZC and HT are two of those 10 POI, none of which have been cleared. Got to be some ladies involved in there somewhere.

BBM

Although I think I see what you mean by saying this, IMO Lauren could certainly still have died had she been dropped off at her apartment. She probably wouldn't be missing, but she may very well still have died. Of course, that is if you believe, as I do, that her death was probably accidental-- a combination of alcohol/drugs/heart condition/etc.

Just my opinion, though. =)

 

[VeryVeritas]

I'm not sure what I'm suggesting either, ha. I just think there are some questions about Tony Gatto's reporting that point to someone deliberately trying to take the focus off of CR. Tony himself has questioned the reliability of his sources, which makes me wonder whether they were just online tipsters or whether he knew their identities. In some cases, the information seems to have been totally false, and it's hard to imagine where a witness could have even come from. For example, who could the source have been who supposedly saw Corey run out of Smallwood and Lauren follow?

- We now know that wasn't true, because it was captured on surveillance video
- We also know the witnesses were on the 5th floor,and their story directly contradicts the one that Gatto told about CR being 'jumped'
- We have no reports of any other witnesses in the lobby. So that leaves CR and Lauren...
- Before there was news of surveillance video, CR's lawyer also jumped in and told a story that wasn't true to the media, about Lauren helping CR home.

All of this suggests to me that CR was trying to control the public understanding of the case by spreading misinformation. He wasn't the only one though... So I think TG's 'sources' could very well be connected to the POI.

This was definitely the case on PT, both from the sources who admitted their connections to the POI, and those who didn't.

About the bar manager, I think it's possible she was just wrong about the time, and Gatto ran with it.

Wow, another reason the FBI should be plugging away on this. If a POI actually hired TG to spread misinformation that's sophisticated and abominable. Also I completely agree and have caught deliberate misinfo from other sources as well. A lot of nights spent hashing details on Lauren's threads and we keep coming back to the same track, no matter how many times they try to derail it.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Thanks Chuz, for applying the timelines to the photo.

@Abbey I'm curious what you have to say considering we had been over this timeline sequence many times and somehow we arrived at the conclusion that the Bar Manager witness was around 2:38 instead of 3:38, and similarly the falling over on the steps at 10th & College apts took place shortly before seeing CR carry LS slumped over his shoulder. But here I'm also again puzzled that couldn't have been going on at 2:38 if they were only leaving SW at 2:42.

The average speed as calculated by Chuz:

1 to SW = 150 fpm
SW to 4 = 129 fpm
4 to 5 = 85 fpm

The Trend is one of S L O W I N G down. It took longer and longer to get a shorter and shorter distance. Even if they were able to move at 150 fpm from SW to 10th & College before entering Alley at #4 that would only leave 1 minute. It doesn't seem possible they could knock on ZC's door, sit down hit head, and then get carried and seen all within 1 minute to arrive at #4 Considering LS's condition at SW, I can't see them moving faster than 150 fpm enroute to 10th & College, but it is possible.

What if CR put LS on his back and nearly ran on the way to 10th & College?
I figure this would be something like 300 fpm, which would give them a little over 3 minutes to spend at 10th & College... still seems really tight.

So if they couldn't have been at 10th & College apts knocking on ZC's door sitting down hitting head and LS being carried by CR at any time before 2:51, then what time was it when they were there?

Since you and I and a few others have been on the same page for a while, was hoping you would comment on my post #167 on this thread (my comments above). If ZC's and/or the Bar Manager's statements are true, then I'm really having trouble reconciling the BPD timeline with the distances involved as posted by Chuz. And notably the BPD timeline does not include ZC or (not surprisingly) the Bar Manager sighting. We certainly went around and around on that before... but when we did there was no reference as to how long it was actually taking to go from SW to 10th & College (ZC's), fall on the steps and be seen by the Bar Manger. The timeline seems to cut both events out entirely. Are both ZC and the Bar Manager lying?

Until I see something more convincing, I am still focused on LS either dying in that gravel lot, or being rushed out of 5N immediately. My gut keeps telling me that it was the gravel lot. CR moved her from where she fell on her face over near the rail where her wallet and keys were found. One would expect those things fell from her hands when she made the face down fall. Which would mean CR picked them up and then picked LS up. Then after putting her down, or maybe trying to prop her up against the rail, the items no longer had any importance, whereas he found them important just a moment earlier. Maybe just too hard to carry that stuff and LS. Or, CR became concerned if not panicked about her condition. Because the 2 men who saw the wallet and keys were soon to pass by, CR had to have left that area within minutes. CR maybe tried to revive her, maybe concealed her. The dumpster area most likely. Just far enough away from the wallet and keys that the 2 men would not have seen CR with LS, especially if now on the ground by the dumpster. If LS passed away right there, or by this time CR realized she had died... it's reasonable to expect that he would be upset.
What could he do? There is nothing said about his cell phone usage that night. At this point I would expect the phone to come out and either a call to 911 to take place, or a plea for help from someone else. If CR called someone surely LE would know. (but they don't have to tell us) If for some reason he didn't have his mobile phone, battery died, or he was cautious enough not to use it... then his only alternative was to seek someone out in person. First stop being his apt, makes sense. Focusing on just how much time these scenarios take, it seems to me that if LS lay there dying by the dumpster and CR trying to revive her, followed by the initial shock of her death, can't imagine this happening in less than 15 minutes. So by the time CR gets to his apt... it's something like 3:20... he has a conversation with MB... and the call to JR is made at 3:30.
Alternatively, I consider LS is in a coma, and CR attempts to carry her to his apt. This would take about the same amount of time. But this time CR carries LS into his apt. Only there briefly and then on to JR's and then quickly off to some vehicle. LS dies during this process.
To me dogs would have been really important here to determine if there were any chance a dead body were in CR/MB's or JR's or in between. Again we don't know if LE had any positive on that. There is absolutely no proof that LS was alive after hitting that gravel lot, only 2 people say she was alive that is MB and JR, and their stories don't match as well as having odd qualities. (assuming ZC and Bar Manager info remain unreliable)

Really hope LE has a crack in this case soon!

 

[doubtingthomas]

On the maps by Btown and Chuz it shows the path taken by CR/LS as leaving SM and traveling up 9th to the ally and down the ally to 10th. It shows leaving SM at 2:42 and arriving at the ally at 2:48. Couldn&#8217;t they have walked up College to 10th and College, knocked on ZC&#8217;s door, sat down a few minutes and then continued down 10th to the ally? All of this in 6 minutes.

 

[Chuz Life]

On the maps by Btown and Chuz it shows the path taken by CR/LS as leaving SM and traveling up 9th to the ally and down the ally to 10th. It shows leaving SM at 2:42 and arriving at the ally at 2:48. Couldn&#8217;t they have walked up College to 10th and College, knocked on ZC&#8217;s door, sat down a few minutes and then continued down 10th to the ally? All of this in 6 minutes.

That's partly the route claimed in the flash video by Bo Dietl's group of PI's.

They do believe that Lauren and Corey walked north on College Ave. to the steps at the South East corner of "College Apartments" (under the clock). They think they sat down there where Lauren was seen falling over (by the bar manager) and then they got back up and walked into the alley. (Corey carrying Lauren).

The private investigators claim that they didn't try to stop by Zoe Camps until they exited the alley - North of the complex.

That would mean the turned East along the alley NORTH of the complex where Btown's photos show the alley lights may have been out. The private investigators say that this was caught on video and it would have been after 2:51 am. After the point where the police timeline ends.

Because there is so much interest in it now.... I'm going to share my most recent map which has MOST of the information on it.... but is not complete.

Any and all help is appreciated in advance.