IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Kadence]

Chuz Life - where are you?! We appreciate, at least I think all of us do, your fresh perspective and uncanny instinct in Lauren's case - please come back and help us!!! We miss you!

I have wavered back and forth many times, I have never fully discounted the involvement of HT and JW in Lauren's disappearance but wonder why they are not included in the Spierer's lawsuit, is there is a reason for that? Does everyone think the Spierers have all the information about their daughter's case? I know we don't, but do they? I wish we knew because that could lay a lot of thing to rest.

Waiting and wishing for you to come home Lauren - you're not forgotten.

 

[Dixie811]

Chuz Life - where are you?! We appreciate, at least I think all of us do, your fresh perspective and uncanny instinct in Lauren's case - please come back and help us!!! We miss you!

I have wavered back and forth many times, I have never fully discounted the involvement of HT and JW in Lauren's disappearance but wonder why they are not included in the Spierer's lawsuit, is there is a reason for that? Does everyone think the Spierers have all the information about their daughter's case? I know we don't, but do they? I wish we knew because that could lay a lot of thing to rest.

Waiting and wishing for you to come home Lauren - you're not forgotten.

I believe because this lawsuit is for wrongful death… JR, CR, and MB have admitted to being the last people (that anyone knows of) with Lauren that night and it can be proven via video, witness statements, and even some of the POI's own statements that Lauren was in very poor condition. Thus, the Spierer's are claiming that CR, JR, and MB had some sort of duty of care to Lauren to get her medical help.


It wouldn't really make sense for HT and JW to be included in the suit because (as far as we know) JW has not admitted to being with LS at all that night while she was partying and I don't believe that HT has admitted to seeing Lauren after Lauren left Smallwood with DR much earlier in the night. While the Spierer's motive behind the suit may be to gain more information and force the players in this case to give more information via depositions, this suit is not legally based as a 'fact finding mission'. Which is why people like JW and HT cannot be included-- there is no legal reason to believe they are in any way responsible for Lauren's demise as they were, to our knowledge, not in the same vicinity of Lauren as she reached a state of needing medical help.


I am not a lawyer, but that is my loose, layman's understanding of the suit. I hope that makes sense!

 

[Ixchel13]

Chuz Life - where are you?! We appreciate, at least I think all of us do, your fresh perspective and uncanny instinct in Lauren's case - please come back and help us!!! We miss you!

I have wavered back and forth many times, I have never fully discounted the involvement of HT and JW in Lauren's disappearance but wonder why they are not included in the Spierer's lawsuit, is there is a reason for that? Does everyone think the Spierers have all the information about their daughter's case? I know we don't, but do they? I wish we knew because that could lay a lot of thing to rest.

Waiting and wishing for you to come home Lauren - you're not forgotten.

True, Hadar might not be legally liable for anything, still think she was at the altercation, JMO. Ten POIs mean more people were involved, and no, we don't know for sure who these people are.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I agree.
What vehicle are you referring to?

It's not an LE confirmed kind of thing but I, personally, trust the source. Here is the link so you can decide how you feel about it.
Thread #29 post #70:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8895833&postcount=70"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29[/ame]

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

True, Hadar might not be legally liable for anything, still think she was at the altercation, JMO. Ten POIs mean more people were involved, and no, we don't know for sure who these people are.

Do we know there are even actually 10? All I've ever heard from LE is that the number of POI's was constantly changing.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

interesting that they went to CRs and not JRs, the last to see Lauren. So it was all about Jesse, not Lauren. Very suspicious. Not defending CR, but why wouldn't he see fear in CR's eyes, when he is being confronted by an angry
older man and Jesse?

Not, "Mr Wolfe flew in to Bloomington and met with the Spierers." but,
that he flew in and confronted the guy who was with Jesse's girlfriend.

Sure, I'd be protective of my son but why, if Jesse was telling the truth, did he need such a back up? And I remember they said something vague about having a friend administer a polygraph to Jesse to make sure he was telling THEM the truth, not to assure LE he was telling the truth.

Well, possibly, behind the scenes right away, these "kids" were trying to figure out how Lauren disappeared and were actually having the nerve to
question Jesse and he immediately called his dad and the dad knew that LE always looks at the boyfriend first.

For all we know, CR could have been trying to take Lauren home. There's absolutely no evidence suggesting that they were just stopping off at Lauren's apt. In fact, in lieu of no explanation for the altercation, I'm going with they were actually trying to stay.

It could be, that somehow, SW security was involved, or sanctioned, the altercation. Both ZO and CR were banned from SW, yet ZO was there
and felt he could even get violent. You'd think after a violent confrontation, someone who was banned would be then kicked out. The altercation has
been covered up, no doubt about that. but why? and who really started it?
If SW security knew and didn't try to help the injured parties, then, they are also liable for what came next. SW did not cooperate with LE right away, and had plenty of time before LE came in with a battering ram to alter their camera footage. To get their ducks in a row, and then convince LE that the altercation had nothing to do with Lauren. They should also be liable for not interrupting the altercation and making sure
Lauren got safely into her apt. What else are they up and running 24/7 for?

Really, the altercation set Lauren's downfall in motion. The liability is there, whether anyone wants to say it, not allowing Lauren into her own apt with her guest, whomever did that for whatever reason, caused her to go incapacitated into the night to her demise.

I'm behind and trying to catch up so I may have missed something, but who didn't allow Lauren into her own apt?

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

As usual I agree with you. The only thing I don't agree with here is that when ZO clocked CR, there is no indication that they had any concern for LS. They may have TOLD investigators that, but no one actually seemed to help LS, they were fixated on CR. (I still want to know if CR is the one that used LS's keycard to get into SW)

I especially agree that a lot of stuff being talked about now no longer has any basis in fact. That happens when cases get cold and no news is forthcoming from LE. Cases can take many years to solve as frustrating as that can be.

As we see it, the critical path of LS and CR leads from Kilroy's to SW to 10th & College, to the Alley, to the gravel lot and that's it for LS - ALL FACTS.
From there we have wallet and keys dropped and found nearby to the left of the Alley exit into the gravel lot - FACT.
Dog hit at the dumpster - HERESAY.
LS supposedly at CR/MB's between 3:00am and 3:30am - HERESAY FROM MB
LS supposedly at JR's between 3:30am and 4:30am - HERESAY FROM JR
4:15am 2 calls made from JR's to: DR and ?? - FACT

If JW were getting texts about the incident at SW, LE would have serious reason to haul him in. Didn't happen. JW claimed to be asleep and there has been nothing to refute that.

The timeline later in the morning remains very fuzzy for me.
The sequence seems to go like this, but would like to have verifiable times to attach:

JW calls LS (guessing 8am)
JW calls HT (est 9am)
JW gets key from HT (est 9:15am)
JW goes to SW (est 9:30 am)
JW goes to CR/MB's (WHY?)? (est 9:45am)
JW goes to JR's?
CR & MB go to drug store ask about little blonde girl (est 10:00am)
Mr. Spier arrives?
JW and Mr. Spierer go to CR/MB's?
JW and Mr. Spierer go to JR's?
LE is called
DB makes runcible spoon tweet

BBM. I hate to say this, but if this is actually how it happened, for me, it points away from the 5N boys. Unless, they were sly enough to be trying to establish themselves as attempting to look for her before she was actually even officially missing.

 

[Chuz Life]

Chuz Life - where are you?! We appreciate, at least I think all of us do, your fresh perspective and uncanny instinct in Lauren's case - please come back and help us!!! We miss you!

Wow. That's very nice of you to say.

I especially needed to read that today. ([ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9969014&postcount=174"]I got another match shot down in flames in the Pearl Lady thread[/ame]). :banghead: So, thanks.

I have wavered back and forth many times, I have never fully discounted the involvement of HT and JW in Lauren's disappearance but wonder why they are not included in the Spierer's lawsuit, is there is a reason for that?

That's something I hope the Civil Lawsuit will provide some answers for.

Once the Civil case begins, the POI's may start pointing fingers at HT, JW & elsewhere and we will have to see where that leads.

I may be wrong but, HT & JW not being mentioned in this Civil case is not something that would protect them from legal action in future cases or legal actions.

The Spierer's lawyers my be holding some of those cards close to their chests for some very good reasons.

Does everyone think the Spierers have all the information about their daughter's case? I know we don't, but do they?

If they do, then they are very good at keeping what more they know (than we do) to themselves.

I wish we knew because that could lay a lot of thing to rest. Waiting and wishing for you to come home Lauren - you're not forgotten.

I've been pretty busy with a lot of other things and I've been trying to develop some theories (before posting them) in Lauren's case as well.

Most recently, I've been trying to find anything specific about Lauren's activities at 5N between the time CR dropped her off and the time she left for Kilroy's with CR. (approx. 45 minutes)

1. Who all was there?
2. Was Lauren ever alone in a room with any of them?
3. If so, for how long?
4. What calls were made or text messages sent?
5. What drugs or booze was consumed?
6. What time did they leave?
7. Who else left at that time?
8. What conversations were had?
9. Was there any physical (making out) contact during that time?
10. Were any pictures taken?
11. Was JW ever made aware of Lauren's location or activities during this time?

etc.

 

[Kadence]

Wow. That's very nice of you to say.

I especially needed to read that today. (I got another match shot down in flames in the Pearl Lady thread). :banghead: So, thanks.



That's something I hope the Civil Lawsuit will provide some answers for.

Once the Civil case begins, the POI's may start pointing fingers at HT, JW & elsewhere and we will have to see where that leads.

I may be wrong but, HT & JW not being mentioned in this Civil case is not something that would protect them from legal action in future cases or legal actions.

The Spierer's lawyers my be holding some of those cards close to their chests for some very good reasons.



If they do, then they are very good at keeping what more they know (than we do) to themselves.




I've been pretty busy with a lot of other things and I've been trying to develop some theories (before posting them) in Lauren's case as well.

Most recently, I've been trying to find anything specific about Lauren's activities at 5N between the time CR dropped her off and the time she left for Kilroy's with CR. (approx. 45 minutes)

1. Who all was there?
2. Was Lauren ever alone in a room with any of them?
3. If so, for how long?
4. What calls were made or text messages sent?
5. What drugs or booze was consumed?
6. What time did they leave?
7. Who else left at that time?
8. What conversations were had?
9. Was there any physical (making out) contact during that time?
10. Were any pictures taken?
11. Was JW ever made aware of Lauren's location or activities during this time?

etc.

So many questions that, with today's technology, should have been easy for LE to determine the answers to. As I've said before, I think they botched it from the beginning because they didn't take her disappearance seriously, and they lost valuable time which has led us to being here today and left her family without her.

Everyone here is doing great work for Lauren and her family, asking questions that should be asked. No matter how far outside of the box they may be, they need to be asked - there are no stupid questions - one may hold the key to finding Lauren.

Forge on Lauren's warriors!

 

[Ixchel13]

Wow. That's very nice of you to say.

I especially needed to read that today. (I got another match shot down in flames in the Pearl Lady thread). :banghead: So, thanks.



That's something I hope the Civil Lawsuit will provide some answers for.

Once the Civil case begins, the POI's may start pointing fingers at HT, JW & elsewhere and we will have to see where that leads.

I may be wrong but, HT & JW not being mentioned in this Civil case is not something that would protect them from legal action in future cases or legal actions.

The Spierer's lawyers my be holding some of those cards close to their chests for some very good reasons.



If they do, then they are very good at keeping what more they know (than we do) to themselves.




I've been pretty busy with a lot of other things and I've been trying to develop some theories (before posting them) in Lauren's case as well.

Most recently, I've been trying to find anything specific about Lauren's activities at 5N between the time CR dropped her off and the time she left for Kilroy's with CR. (approx. 45 minutes)

1. Who all was there?
2. Was Lauren ever alone in a room with any of them?
3. If so, for how long?
4. What calls were made or text messages sent?
5. What drugs or booze was consumed?
6. What time did they leave?
7. Who else left at that time?
8. What conversations were had?
9. Was there any physical (making out) contact during that time?
10. Were any pictures taken?
11. Was JW ever made aware of Lauren's location or activities during this time?

etc.

very good point about leaving everyone out to give room for counter accusations. You think like a cop, compliment.

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm behind and trying to catch up so I may have missed something, but who didn't allow Lauren into her own apt?

How clear can I be?-- I am speculating. Like everyone else here. May I remind us that there is no evidence that the 5N POIs hid Lauren's body, no evidence that there was a sexual assault, but many people, the same people who keep quoting my posts about Hadar, have speculated just that.

We have evidence that Lauren was hurt, and needed help to walk. Everything else is speculation based on probabilities.

Why won't LE allow anyone to view the altercation? My question is, was Hadar at the altercation? If she was, then there's a probability that she was involved, and that is not a wild probability.

If so, did she really think she would harm Lauren this much? That answer would probably be a huge no, but, are people responsible for their lethal actions, intended or not? In the real world, yes. But see, these "kids" were
spoiled, privileged, and very rarely do they think anything bad will happen to them, hence some of them saying it's "perfectly safe" to walk alone in that neighborhood at that time of night, when I know perfectly well as a local it isn't.

 

[AbbeyR]

BBM. I hate to say this, but if this is actually how it happened, for me, it points away from the 5N boys. Unless, they were sly enough to be trying to establish themselves as attempting to look for her before she was actually even officially missing.

A couple of points about VV's timeline -

- I think that people sometimes accidentally confuse the CVS witness (friend from Smallwood who ran into MB and CR at the drug store - MB told him Lauren had left their apt. early that morning and he'd watched her walk out the door toward home) with CM, the neighbor who ran into Corey outside, when Corey asked if he'd "seen a little blonde girl".

The drug store incident was reported to have happened on Friday afternoon, which would coincide with HT's story about when they started looking for Lauren. We don't know when the CM encounter happened (not clear from the article, which had a typo - I wish we did know this, since it could be important - or not - depending on when it happened)

- It's my understanding that the part about JW looking for Lauren all happened later in the afternoon than that timeline estimates. I don't think we have a concrete timeline, but (unconfirmed source) JW's roommate said JW drove him to class around noon, and nothing was out of the ordinary at that point. By 4 pm, he texted him freaking out that they couldn't find Lauren. This matches up with the timeline HT told the LoHud reporter, which was that JW had been trying to contact Lauren, and in the early afternoon got a message from an employee at Kilroy's, telling him her phone had been left there. At around 2 pm, he called HT and her roommate, and since neither of them had seen or heard from Lauren, he got HT's key and went to check if she was in her apt.

Then we have the encounter at CVS, so I assume they started calling around looking for her. We also know that HT talked to JR that afternoon, and he told her he was the one who watched Lauren walk out the door toward home around 4 am.

So, by mid afternoon, they would have known at least that she left 5 N around 4 am, but didn't make it home, and that she didn't have her phone. They also, I'm sure, had heard from people at that point about the night before, so would know that she was in really bad shape when last seen, that people were concerned about how Corey was treating her, and that by the time he carried her off towards his place, she couldn't even walk on her own. They may have also heard conflicting stories about what happened from MB and JR.

Around 4:30, she was reported missing, the Spierers were called, etc.

So whatever JW, HT and others heard between noon and 4:30, it was obviously reason for them to feel they should report her missing.

- I don't remember reading that JW went to JR's (I think HT spoke to him on the phone June 3rd), and AFAIK, the encounter with his dad happened another day.

 

[Ixchel13]

A couple of points about VV's timeline -

- I think that people sometimes accidentally confuse the CVS witness (friend from Smallwood who ran into MB and CR at the drug store - MB told him Lauren had left their apt. early that morning and he'd watched her walk out the door toward home) with CM, the neighbor who ran into Corey outside, when Corey asked if he'd "seen a little blonde girl".

The drug store incident was reported to have happened on Friday afternoon, which would coincide with HT's story about when they started looking for Lauren. We don't know when the CM encounter happened (not clear from the article, which had a typo - I wish we did know this, since it could be important - or not - depending on when it happened)

- It's my understanding that the part about JW looking for Lauren all happened later in the afternoon than that timeline estimates. I don't think we have a concrete timeline, but (unconfirmed source) JW's roommate said JW drove him to class around noon, and nothing was out of the ordinary at that point. By 4 pm, he texted him freaking out that they couldn't find Lauren. This matches up with the timeline HT told the LoHud reporter, which was that JW had been trying to contact Lauren, and in the early afternoon got a message from an employee at Kilroy's, telling him her phone had been left there. At around 2 pm, he called HT and her roommate, and since neither of them had seen or heard from Lauren, he got HT's key and went to check if she was in her apt.

Then we have the encounter at CVS, so I assume they started calling around looking for her. We also know that HT talked to JR that afternoon, and he told her he was the one who watched Lauren walk out the door toward home around 4 am.

So, by mid afternoon, they would have known at least that she left 5 N around 4 am, but didn't make it home, and that she didn't have her phone. They also, I'm sure, had heard from people at that point about the night before, so would know that she was in really bad shape when last seen, that people were concerned about how Corey was treating her, and that by the time he carried her off towards his place, she couldn't even walk on her own. They may have also heard conflicting stories about what happened from MB and JR.

Around 4:30, she was reported missing, the Spierers were called, etc.

So whatever JW, HT and others heard between noon and 4:30, it was obviously reason for them to feel they should report her missing.

- I don't remember reading that JW went to JR's (I think HT spoke to him on the phone June 3rd), and AFAIK, the encounter with his dad happened another day.

well you've got the boyfriend, often a POI in these cases, retrieving her phone AND searching her room with roomie's blessing. Some kind of powder
was found in her room--coke? Someone might feel, ok it's me--that he (they) could have planted the coke in her room to bolster the OD/hide body scenario, possibly framing the 5N POIs. Even if it's not true, the ploy worked,
just the one statement, "this time Lauren went to far," and everyone jumped right on HT's bandwagon and was convinced it had to be an OD.

Combined with Tony Gatto's "witnesses" from Kilroy's, and employees who could get the whole place in lots of hot water for getting Lauren drunk.
Much better if everyone agreed she was on various drugs.

Again, these witnesses, from AB to ZC; and don't forget Kelly,a minor who had spent the night drinking and was walking home alone at 4 a.m. and thinking she was as safe as a lamb,all of them drunk or high or both, are these really the people passing judgement on how high Lauren was or how safe the area is? Really?!

 

[monkey222]

Abbey, Many thanks for this detail. I had in my mind that JW contacted HT in am, then drove to her class to get key, like before 1p. I sure had this wrong. So, JW wakes up and drives his roommate to class. Business as usual. All interesting. Thank you again.

 

[Chuz Life]

<snipped to respond to one point>

- ... (unconfirmed source) JW's roommate said JW drove him to class around noon, and nothing was out of the ordinary at that point. By 4 pm, he texted him freaking out that they couldn't find Lauren. This matches up with the timeline HT told the LoHud reporter, which was that JW had been trying to contact Lauren, and in the early afternoon got a message from an employee at Kilroy's, telling him her phone had been left there. At around 2 pm, he called HT and her roommate, and since neither of them had seen or heard from Lauren, he got HT's key and went to check if she was in her apt.

This reminds me of one of the things about this case that is making my head want to explode.

Many of the reports that I have read stated that Jesse Wolff was going to watch the game at his place and Lauren was going to watch the game at Smallwood. The reports said that they were going to hook up after the game.

So, I started thinking "What teams were playing? What time did the game end?"

This article says: "Alan Wolff said his son, Jesse, was texting him from his house the previous night as a Knicks basketball playoff game was under way on television. He said his son was texting, back and forth, with Spierer that night and that "she indicated to him that she was home and going to sleep." He texted to her that "if you wake up, call me and we'll talk." Then he went to bed, the father said."

Okay,... so I tried to confirm the claim and I tried to see what time the game ended and I found this instead.

According to "BasketballReference.com" - the NICKS did not play on June 2nd, 2011. Dallas and Miami did.

So, what time did the Dallas and Miami game end?

According to the Nielsen's Ratings; "The three-hour telecast from 8 p.m.-11 p.m. ET, including more than 30 minutes of postgame coverage, averaged a 9.5 rating on ABC."

So, assuming Jesse Wolff was watching that game (because the NICKS were not playing)... He should have heard from or should have called Lauren by 11:00 pm.

11:30 pm at the latest.

So what gives?

The timelines and other reports say that the last time Lauren's phone was used that night - was at 12:16 am.

The game was long since over - by then.

So, we are to believe that Jesse Actually watched the Miami and Dallas game and then took Lauren's word for it - that she was going to bed.

Fine.

Does anyone actually believe that JW actually went to bed - himself? After the game? That no one called or texted him about Lauren's where abouts and activities following the game? That his 'friend' ZO punched CR in the face at Smallwood?

No calls from ANY of his 'friends?'

Not even from Hadar?

With 'friends' like that - who needs enemies?

 

[monkey222]

Chuz, I recall reading. ..source..? I cannot recall...that either all parties, or JW? were watching taped? delayed playoff game. Also..game watched at 5N too, no?

 

[monkey222]

Did Knicks play earlier..maybe watching tape game of that??

 

[akh]

That game was NBA Finals. Knicks season was finished by then so they had not played in quite some time.

Unless they were watching some 'classic' (read: old, different era, taped) game on NBA TV or the like. Which would be doubtful I'd think with the NBA Finals on. I mean, if you're into the NBA why would you watch an old 'classic' game when there Finals are on? And if you'd just watched the Finals why would you search out an old game to watch afterwards?

IIRC.... I don't think there was any 'source' for saying they were watching a taped version of the game.... Just some speculation that in this DVR age it was possible because otherwise the game should've been over before it was inserted into the narrative of the night.

 

[Chuz Life]

Did Knicks play earlier..maybe watching tape game of that??

If there was any Basketball being watched at all, I doubt very much that it was a taped Nicks game.

AKH summed everything up pretty well.

 

[monkey222]

Just recall reading about watching tape delay at some point that night. Maybe party at JRs were re watching final?