IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[deca]

I am not sure of the legal aspect of this- but how can you trust what some witnesses are saying if they admitted to being drunk and/or high for a good portion of the night?

 

[Ros]

http://www.lohud.com/viewart/201402...sued-by-parents-oppose-sealing-sensitive-info

http://www.jconline.com/article/201...ren-Spierer-s-parents-oppose-protective-order

 

[imkeylime]

http://www.lohud.com/viewart/201402...sued-by-parents-oppose-sealing-sensitive-info

http://www.jconline.com/article/201...ren-Spierer-s-parents-oppose-protective-order

Thanks, Ros. I find the differing tone of the motions (as described) by JR and MB interesting. Maybe it's just me, but JR's motion almost seems flippant, IMO, and CR's more contemplative. I suppose that has more to do with the attorneys than anything.

Also, does it seem likely to anyone that what transpired earlier in the night, i.e., before LS arrived at JR's the first time and subsequently went to Sports, is what the privacy is about?

 

[Ros]

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...rers-parents-oppose-protective-order/5419275/

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/fr...cle_b616d623-ee6d-53b7-b2c9-d746acd2fd7f.html

https://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=96552

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...quest-to-judge-to-exclude-private-information

http://wishtv.com/2014/02/12/2-sued-over-missing-iu-student-oppose-suit-limits/

http://www.wthr.com/story/24706348/2014/02/12/two-sued-over-missing-iu-student-oppose-suit-limits

Anyone know of a link to the court documents themselves?

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks for the links, Ros!

Here's the statement from the Spierers' attorney:

The family's attorney, Jason Ross Barclay, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that he regarded the protective order as routine and a minor issue in the case. More important, he said, was that Magistrate Judge Tim Baker had ordered both sides to begin the routine process of turning over evidence to each other so that no secrets are kept.

Rosenbaum and Rossman had previously tried to delay that process, saying some of the information disclosed might tend to incriminate them, but Baker on Jan. 31 said the men hadn't proven that would happen and he ordered the process to proceed.

Baker said the process needs to move on, even though it may not answer all the questions about Lauren Spierer's disappearance. (BBM)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...quest-to-judge-to-exclude-private-information

 

[Ros]

So, in perhaps oversimplified terms..
JR and CR: We don't want to say anything that makes us look bad.
RS and CS: Let's keep the proceedings secret.
JR and CR: We don't like that idea either.

Somehow I think that this case could take a long time and both sides will have high legal fees as a result.

 

[Ros]

Would LE have to release its information to the parties in the civil case?

 

[masootz]

just my opinion - i think it's a legal end-around.

likely a lot of the "evidence" the spierers want to bring up are things known to LE. they are less likely to get LE to be willing to help with this case if certain details are to become public. if they get the judge to rule that the proceedings stay secret then LE is more likely to give them information that could help their case. obviously the POIs' lawyers want the case to be "public" for two reasons - 1) decrease content spierers will have access to (and possibly decrease things they are ALLOWED to bring up) and 2) they can spin it to seem like the spierers are trying to hide something.

 

[akh]

Would LE have to release its information to the parties in the civil case?

No they would not and considering their reluctance to go public with much of anything it would take an awful lot to get them to cooperate with the civil suit.

 

[holly18]

just my opinion - i think it's a legal end-around.

likely a lot of the "evidence" the spierers want to bring up are things known to LE. they are less likely to get LE to be willing to help with this case if certain details are to become public. if they get the judge to rule that the proceedings stay secret then LE is more likely to give them information that could help their case. obviously the POIs' lawyers want the case to be "public" for two reasons - 1) decrease content spierers will have access to (and possibly decrease things they are ALLOWED to bring up) and 2) they can spin it to seem like the spierers are trying to hide something.

This is a really good point, I hadn't thought of it this way. All three boys (with a slight exception for MB) have been unwilling to help publicly or privately (as far as we, and apparently the spierers, know), I think they're hoping to have the case be public so they can give the bare minimum of information, and then be able to say "we helped, its public record".

My guess is that part of the spierers reasoning for wanting it to be sealed is because hopefully that way the boys will be more forthcoming (might give out details about drugs consumed/purchased that night if they think it can't hurt them in the longrun) and the fact that the boys are opposing this makes me think that they aren't planning to reveal anything that they haven't already said.

I can't imagine how frustrated the spierers must be. As someone on the last page pointed out, almost everything in this case could be built on lies. There appears to be no way for LE to know if CR/JR/MB are lying, if the other people who saw lauren are lying, etc. They could all be lying to cover up drugs, or a few could be lying to cover up date rape, etc. IMO the only thing that is clear (and even then not perfectly clear) is that from the video we've heard about it seems reasonable to assume that Lauren was in such bad shape that MB/CR/JR's version of what happened once she got back to 5N with CR can't be the entire truth.

 

[holly18]

snipped by me.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20666241,00.html

Quoting the article:
The Spierers aren't convinced Lauren's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, has been entirely forthcoming either. It was Wolff and two other students, investigators say, who reported Lauren missing June 3 after Kilroy's contacted him with Lauren's cell phone. At first he seemed eager to help. "That Monday he was texting me, 'We've got to have everyone take polys,'" says Charlene. But according to the Spierers, the next day, as search parties fanned out for miles around IU, Wolff left for home, which struck Robert and Charlene as odd. Since then he's refused to take a police polygraph; contacted by PEOPLE Dec. 5, he declined to comment. "He was in love with Lauren as far as we knew," says Robert, "so we can't understand why he's chosen not to do everything possible to help us."


I'm not sure how to interpret his actions or his mother's either anymore. Weird.

I do think the 5N POI definitely seem more suspicious and were the last to see allegedly, but I would definitely be more skeptical of JW if there was anything showing he wasn't home in bed and had knowledge of what LS was up to/where she was and when. However, it's also weird too because LS was only in town because she was going to ride home with JW and the Spierers were initially supportive of JW, so it seems like they at least had no reason to suspect LS & JW were on the rocks, especially if CS & LS spoke on the phone as often as they did. However, maybe LS didn't want to share that part of her life with her parents?

I really think that JR, CR, and MB would love to throw JW under the bus if they could, so it still seems like LS would have to go to him OR someone would have to alert him to where LS was and when, and this person has not come forward stating they gave that information to JW (or at least isn't publicly known to have come forward). JW's actions after the fact aren't great though.

IA, I think if the 5N boys had anything that would throw any suspicion on JW they would have used it, at the very least meaning more prevalent rumors about JW following Lauren/knowing what she was up to. AFAIK all of the theories about JW having something to do with Lauren's disappearance come from people sleuthing the case, not from rumors from people involved.

JW's parents seem aggressively protective and their interview/statement certainly makes it seem like they weren't fond of Lauren, so I could believe that they had him leave bloomington either on advice of council, or they just convinced him to leave. IMO its possible that JW just feels incredibly guilty about what happened to Lauren (whether he has a hunch what that is or not) and that morphed into him blaming lauren because its easier than blaming himself (ie I should have gone out with her that night, I should have tried to convince her not to go out, I should have been there to protect her, etc).

Personally I don't think JW had a role in her disappearance, but thats mainly because I don't know how plausible it is that he would have been able to track lauren down without anyone seeing him and without being on any security footage, and because if Lauren passed away from something she'd taken/the falls he hadn't been with her earlier in the night and wasn't with her when she started falling so I'm not sure what he would have to lose by calling 911 to get help for his girlfriend of several years. Plus, I have no idea how he would have managed to hide Lauren, if he caught up to her somewhere near 5N and something happened and she passed away, he'd then have to carry her to his car (I'm guessing that if he'd made any calls to get someone to help him LE would have seen a record of them), find somewhere to put her, arrive home without anyone knowing he was gone and then be functional and believable enough to deal with HT, go get Lauren's phone, talk to the spierers and then voluntarily get himself involved with the police. I just can't see that happening, but thats just my opinion

 

[CoolJ]

IMO JW was acting exactly how you would expect a boyfriend to act.... for about 2 days... And then it's like something changed

 

[holly18]

IMO JW was acting exactly how you would expect a boyfriend to act.... for about 2 days... And then it's like something changed

But couldn't what changed be that he realized his girlfriend was seriously missing and wasn't going to show up a day later with a crazy story? I've never had something like what happened to lauren/her loved ones happen to me, but I've had instances where something awful happens and you sort of go on autopilot to deal with things, until a day or two later it sinks in that this is real and actually happening and you kind of go off the rails.

I'm absolutely not ruling out the possibility that there was something else at play in terms of JW, but I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility to think that the first day/two days/three days that Lauren was missing he was doing what needed to be done while half thinking that Lauren would show up and everything would be fine, and then once a day or two had gone by, the police were taking it seriously and the spierers had flown in he realized that this was really happening and he flipped out.

I know I'm not articulating this properly, but in my experience (though as I've said I haven't dealt with something like this) when something horribly life changing happens you cope as best you can, doing what you need to do for a bit, but then theres a moment when it really sinks in that this is happening to you/someone you love, you're not going to wake up from this and you can't fix it. People react differently to that feeling, some become more proactive, others shut down totally, and some people might get irrationally angry. I don't know what I would do in that situation, though I hope I would be productive and proactive, and I can't say with certainty how I would realistically expect a 21/22 year old guy whose girlfriend of many years has just disappeared would act, especially if he knew about her heart problems (which I would assume he did) and was aware that if she hadn't had access to her medication in several days her odds were bad, no matter what else had happened.

 

[imkeylime]

IMO JW was acting exactly how you would expect a boyfriend to act.... for about 2 days... And then it's like something changed

The thing that kind of bothers me is how resigned JW seemed to LS' fate so early on. Maybe there's an underground grapevine? Also, I really think his parents got involved and hired a lawyer. That doesn't bother me, given the recent cases of falsely convicted people.

Eventually it probably dawned on him that unless LS' body was found, he'd always be a suspect on some level. OTOH, there have definitely been boyfriends in other cases that dealt with this differently.

 

[imkeylime]

... Eventually it probably dawned on him that unless LS' body was found, he'd always be a suspect on some level. OTOH, there have definitely been boyfriends in other cases that dealt with this differently.

Well, I can't stop thinking about this, for some reason, so I'm responding to what I wrote! One thing that strikes me, knowing what we know now, is that DR seems to have actually stepped up and acted the way I wish JW had, i.e., participated in the search and taken an LE-administered polygraph. The Spierers apparently appreciate him doing so, IMO.

For some reason, I've always had a nagging feeling that there's something JW doesn't want to share about that night, though not necessarily about LS' disappearance. But it's nothing more than that ... a nagging feeling with no real anything to back it up.

 

[holly18]

Well, I can't stop thinking about this, for some reason, so I'm responding to what I wrote! One thing that strikes me, knowing what we know now, is that DR seems to have actually stepped up and acted the way I wish JW had, i.e., participated in the search and taken an LE-administered polygraph. The Spierers apparently appreciate him doing so, IMO.

For some reason, I've always had a nagging feeling that there's something JW doesn't want to share about that night, though not necessarily about LS' disappearance. But it's nothing more than that ... a nagging feeling with no real anything to back it up.

Your post got me thinking, maybe JW and lauren had gotten into a fight very recently (or broken up), possibly related to her new friendship with CR. He might not have wanted to admit that because he thought it would cast him in a bad light (or he thought she come back/her disappearance wasn't as serious as it was) so he said nothing? It might fit as to why he left so fast (say hypothetically they got into a fight because lauren was going out with cory that night, he calls the next morning to make up/fight some more, gets freaked out that she's not answering and everything goes from there. He might feel guilty but also be angry with her, which could account for at least some of his weird/cold behavior after the fact), they had been together so long that I could buy everyone glazing over the fact that they were fighting/broken up at the time because it was assumed they would make up/didn't count

I don't personally think that JW played any role in her disappearance, but I agree that something seems weird. He could be covering up for 5N, though that seems doubtful because I don't think he got along with them, he could be covering up drug use (his or someone else's) but from what his parents seem comfortable cruelly publicizing about lauren I don't think he was covering up for her (potential) drug use.

I wish we had more solid, confirmed pieces of the puzzle here. So far, the only person who appears to have been totally honest/forthcoming is DR. CR, JR, MB, HT, JW, ZO, DB etc are all wildcards. Who knows if any of them are hiding anything or if whatever they're hiding actually has to do with Lauren or just with their own activities that they need to keep quiet. I really, really hope LE knows far more than we do and that the spierer's lawsuit helps get at least a little more solid evidence.

 

[AbbeyR]

IMO JW was acting exactly how you would expect a boyfriend to act.... for about 2 days... And then it's like something changed

I'm guessing that's when his parents/ lawyer came into the picture.

 

[Ixchel13]

well, he got the lawyer after he and his dad, JW and his dad to make it clear,
went over and accused CR of killing his girlfriend.

As I am reading back through newspaper articles, I am reminded that at first, when LE talked to the people involved, from DR to ZO and the altercation, and CR, JR, and MB, they stated numerous times that they had no suspects.

Let's don't give any lectures about POI vs. suspect, that train has left the station too many times here.

At the beginning, LE seemed to believe the story line somewhat. Then you had Gatto, false witnesses, JW's dad, etc. The POIs at 5N became the de fault suspects and not the de facto suspects.

Although they may be guilty, there is no evidence whatsoever other than
the idea put forth that Lauren couldn't function. And of course the very potent verdict of public opinion, which has already tried them and found them guilty.

If you take that court of public opinion chronologically, even before any camera footage of the alley you have the very (UN!)reliable statements from the employees at Kilroys who claim they kicked Lauren out for being too intoxicated. Not for having the fake ID they allowed her in with and served her at least 3 drinks with. They said she was saying how many drugs she
was on, coke, xanax, etc.

First, it was closing time. Everyone gets kicked out and not politely. If you don't drink up and leave, they will take your drink, pour it out, and tell you to get out.

Second, they had alot to lose. They served someone underage who was already intoxicated, and LE knew it. No way Lauren would get a fair review
from anyone at Kilroys.

Third, Kilroys had just created the beach theme with sand and umbrellas, yet right after Lauren's case broke, they closed down completely, scattering customers and employees that could be potential witnesses. Out of sight, out of mind around here. They only garnered a citation for serving an underage
patron, wow, they could fill an entire wall if they framed those citations, and another wall of violent crime citations from customers fighting and this includes townies, in fact, the most violent crimes are committed by townies in these bars not students. I can remember one knifing, a townie knifed and I think killed a student right in the front sidewalk outside of Kilroys. Reason?
Why the smart aleck student said something the guy didn't like. Was this alcohol fuelled violence? absolutely.

CR was not hiding Lauren and trying to drag her to his apt. He brought her home in front of everyone, and was knocked down and kicked by several guys while on the ground, and when he left with Lauren, not one of her friends tried to keep her there.

Lauren was drunk, but so was everyone else. Were they as drunk as she was? I'm thinking yes they were. Yet they were all staggering around to these 3 nor 4 parties. I don't believe ANY of these people. I don't believe Lauren was the last person standing, super drunk and high and everyone else had gone to bed. That notion is ridiculous. When these kids start partying like this, they all party until they pass out somewhere.

I don't believe any of the rigamarole about her never even making it to JRs,
but definitely believe that some of these people could have been responsible for her demise after she left there. Maybe this is what the Spierer's are after.
I could see someone hurting Lauren who wasn't in their main cliques, like a guest from out of town, before I could see her main group of peeps harming her.

On another note, the other day I was talking to a coed and she said a few weeks ago, her friend was super drunk, walking home from the bars after closing, and asked a pizza guy who was parked at a curb for a ride home and he gave it. That gave me the chills. Pizza guy has always been at the back of my random theories.
Pizza places are one of the main places that hire sex offenders. I found our Jack's pizza guy in Indy on the sex offenders register!
I seriously wonder just how many random guys hang around in that area just hoping to get lucky, not to harm any girl per se, but just to see if the right coed walks by, inebriated enough to accept help from a total stranger.
The idea that there aren't weirdos, and not rarely, out in that area, at that time of night is just wishful thinking. The idea that there weren't others with motive and opportunity within the larger group that night is also wishful thinking. I could see any of these guys following Lauren or coming upon her after she left, because JMO, she did leave.
This case, IMO, won't be wrapped up neatly with just those 3 5N POIs. If they know something more, this trial may be very helpful. With the evidence presented so far, if that's what logical thinking based on what's happened to others in the past in the same situation is called, I can't condemn them as guilty of disposing of their friend's body. Even more, I can't accuse them of not just raping, but gang raping, their friend. That is pure speculation regardless of statistics.

 

[AbbeyR]

At some point, someone mentioned that there was going to be an upcoming Dateline episode on Lauren's case. Has anyone heard anything more about this?

 

[leilarose68]

The thing that kind of bothers me is how resigned JW seemed to LS' fate so early on. Maybe there's an underground grapevine? Also, I really think his parents got involved and hired a lawyer. That doesn't bother me, given the recent cases of falsely convicted people.

Eventually it probably dawned on him that unless LS' body was found, he'd always be a suspect on some level. OTOH, there have definitely been boyfriends in other cases that dealt with this differently.

i'm pretty sure that he knew she was dead. there were rumors + people in the know seemed to have been certain she died of an overdose.