IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[sammi89]

It is standard protocol on this website to provide a link if you state something as fact. Why do people need to follow some convoluted google scavenger hunt? It makes no sense. Either it's true or not.

Bessie is reviewing the link doubtthomas PM'd me. I wanted to ensure it was okay to use it before I posted it.

IMO, I'm not sure the link necessarily ties them together but I'll wait to post my thoughts on it until she has reviewed it.

 

[bessie]

I told DoubtingThomas the video can be linked because it's commercially produced for public viewing. I'm still looking into other issues, but for now I will say that the general rule of thumb on WS says, "if you can't link it, you can't post it".

 

[Mahouston69]

I still think ignoring any possible scenario that involves just JW and JR is biased against a larger, grander, more speculative conspiracy. I looked back and found this as well:

The Spierers aren't convinced Lauren's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, has been entirely forthcoming either. It was Wolff and two other students, investigators say, who reported Lauren missing June 3 after Kilroy's contacted him with Lauren's cell phone. At first he seemed eager to help. "That Monday he was texting me, 'We've got to have everyone take polys,'" says Charlene. But according to the Spierers, the next day, as search parties fanned out for miles around IU, Wolff left for home, which struck Robert and Charlene as odd. Since then he's refused to take a police polygraph; contacted by PEOPLE Dec. 5, he declined to comment. "He was in love with Lauren as far as we knew," says Robert, "so we can't understand why he's chosen not to do everything possible to help us."

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20666241,00.html

 

[VeryVeritas]

Yes, I'm aware JW is a suspect, <modsnip>

I agree with you Holly... a lot of dust is being raised here with no substance. I have never seen anything, not one shred of anything to link JW to LS's demise. However, I'm willing to consider all possibilities.
More than ever our 3 POI's at 5N seem very culpable. So... how would I insert JW into this picture? Well one thing that might raise my eyebrows is if that unknown call from JR's at 4:15 was in fact to JW. That would get me going. What has long puzzled me about JR is why (especially now that he admits the various drugs used by LS in his presence) he would cover for CR. We know what happened to LS in CR's care... she was falling down getting her face and head and banged up. She lost everything in her possession except mysteriously a fake ID and Keycard. The idea that he instead would be covering for JW... would be curious. Everyone knows that the significant (or in this case, the not so significant) "other" is the most likely person to harm someone. Would JR really come up with his story to protect JW from a murder rap? Uh... no way. Unless it can be proven that JW was somehow present, or was contacted, or was not at home that night... it doesn't fit at all. No one has said JW was around any time that night. No calls, or texts to or from JW beyond LS's last texts at 12:15 have been reported. So, for me it seems like noise, AGAIN, to come up with some kind (any kind) of scenario that could cause reasonable doubt for those who very much seem responsible here. LS was drugged up, alcoholized, sustained severe head injuries, had Long QT, and was last seen on camera falling face down with no attempt to block her fall. Everything points to her horrific condition, whilst CR and MB tried to spin and spin that she was in great shape. JR who supposedly saw her last and after CR/MB painted a much more realistic picture. A picture that however contradicted his own stated actions... letting her walk out the door and down the street in a direction that she very well would not travel. So we have 3 liars. They aren't lying about being druggies or partying. They can't lie about their frequent traffic violations or other legal infractions. What it looks like is that things got out of hand that night with LS somewhere between that gravel lot and JR's place. If it were drugs, alcohol, long qt, etc... that killed her... by now any one of the participants in disposing the body could make an anonymous report. That would go a long way towards clearing this up and getting closure. But no... they aren't doing that. Why? The location would give away the body dumper? For example if it were in a particular place in Michigan it might point to DB. Or maybe one or more people left semen inside of LS before she passed? When I hear JR admitting the variety of drug use he witnessed, combined with what he directly observed about her condition, I hear him implying very strongly THAT is what killed her. It's like he wants to convey that message... So why not let the body get discovered? Let's say that happened... someone makes an anonymous tip... they find LS body, analysis confirms drugs were in her system but no actual cause of death can be determined because the body is too badly decomposed. There is no semen found... what would happen? I don't see the outcome of any case civil or criminal having a different outcome if that would be the state of her body. Semen would lead to a different outcome... other evidence with the body might lead to a different outcome... but otherwise no. Therefore as long as the body remains missing, I have to strongly suspect that LS was raped before she died. And that points to the people who were the last to see her CR/MB/JR and possibly one or more of JR's "guests" like DB.

 

[sammi89]

I agree with you Holly... a lot of dust is being raised here with no substance. I have never seen anything, not one shred of anything to link JW to LS's demise. However, I'm willing to consider all possibilities.
More than ever our 3 POI's at 5N seem very culpable. So... how would I insert JW into this picture? Well one thing that might raise my eyebrows is if that unknown call from JR's at 4:15 was in fact to JW. That would get me going. What has long puzzled me about JR is why (especially now that he admits the various drugs used by LS in his presence) he would cover for CR. We know what happened to LS in CR's care... she was falling down getting her face and head and banged up. She lost everything in her possession except mysteriously a fake ID and Keycard. The idea that he instead would be covering for JW... would be curious. Everyone knows that the significant (or in this case, the not so significant) "other" is the most likely person to harm someone. Would JR really come up with his story to protect JW from a murder rap? Uh... no way. Unless it can be proven that JW was somehow present, or was contacted, or was not at home that night... it doesn't fit at all. No one has said JW was around any time that night. No calls, or texts to or from JW beyond LS's last texts at 12:15 have been reported. So, for me it seems like noise, AGAIN, to come up with some kind (any kind) of scenario that could cause reasonable doubt for those who very much seem responsible here. LS was drugged up, alcoholized, sustained severe head injuries, had Long QT, and was last seen on camera falling face down with no attempt to block her fall. Everything points to her horrific condition, whilst CR and MB tried to spin and spin that she was in great shape. JR who supposedly saw her last and after CR/MB painted a much more realistic picture. A picture that however contradicted his own stated actions... letting her walk out the door and down the street in a direction that she very well would not travel. So we have 3 liars. They aren't lying about being druggies or partying. They can't lie about their frequent traffic violations or other legal infractions. What it looks like is that things got out of hand that night with LS somewhere between that gravel lot and JR's place. If it were drugs, alcohol, long qt, etc... that killed her... by now any one of the participants in disposing the body could make an anonymous report. That would go a long way towards clearing this up and getting closure. But no... they aren't doing that. Why? The location would give away the body dumper? For example if it were in a particular place in Michigan it might point to DB. Or maybe one or more people left semen inside of LS before she passed? When I hear JR admitting the variety of drug use he witnessed, combined with what he directly observed about her condition, I hear him implying very strongly THAT is what killed her. It's like he wants to convey that message... So why not let the body get discovered? Let's say that happened... someone makes an anonymous tip... they find LS body, analysis confirms drugs were in her system but no actual cause of death can be determined because the body is too badly decomposed. There is no semen found... what would happen? I don't see the outcome of any case civil or criminal having a different outcome if that would be the state of her body. Semen would lead to a different outcome... other evidence with the body might lead to a different outcome... but otherwise no. Therefore as long as the body remains missing, I have to strongly suspect that LS was raped before she died. And that points to the people who were the last to see her CR/MB/JR and possibly one or more of JR's "guests" like DB.

This really clicked with me in regards to Dietl's comment about how it couldn't be just drugs.

Could they still tell if there was semen or drugs at the time of death?

I'm hopeful that if they find the body, the location is somehow telling of who is responsible too.

 

[holly18]

This really clicked with me in regards to Dietl's comment about how it couldn't be just drugs.

Could they still tell if there was semen or drugs at the time of death?

I'm hopeful that if they find the body, the location is somehow telling of who is responsible too.

Not to get graphic, but if Lauren had been a victim of sexual assault and they had called 911 at some point that night to get her help, the ER would most likely have been able to determine that she had been raped, and possibly by who.
And most drugs would still be in her system, depending on when she had consumed them...

 

[Ixchel13]

BBM

Just something to consider-- often business arrangements/employment are arranged in advance. Meaning, if the bolded is true (I am not necessarily refuting it, I just have not personally done the research regarding this information), then I think it's possible these young men were already set to be working for or running these companies at whichever given location if, as you said, it was mere weeks after Lauren's disappearance.

I totally agree with you. And if all this was set to go, would they want any scandal, or even worse, court and jail time? Bad for instagram, twitter, and MSM exposure.

 

[sammi89]

bbm....what?

I see why this would pique interest but the thing is, I agree that JW would likely have limited power in the company and what was he supposed to do? Stomp his feet and say he didn't want his family to do business with a company that was in JR's area?

JW is not going to be in charge. He doesn't decide who the company does or does not do business with.

I'm not even sure JW/fam would even think to look into that before they started signing contracts, and who knows how long they had either already had a relationship or were in discussions in forming one.

JW is not going to look up every move JR's business is making. He probably had no idea JR was working there.

Business relationships don't come into existence overnight. JW's company may have had them for a client long before LS disappeared OR JW's company & the client may have been in talks long before LS disappeared about working together.

 

[sammi89]

Not to get graphic, but if Lauren had been a victim of sexual assault and they had called 911 at some point that night to get her help, the ER would most likely have been able to determine that she had been raped, and possibly by who.
And most drugs would still be in her system, depending on when she had consumed them...

I meant now, but thank you. I don't think they would be able to because of decomposition, right?

 

[concernedmother]

I dont comment on this case much . Im probably the only one with the opinion I have. I think its possible none of these people had anything to do with her disappearance. Drugs and alcohol yes. I think its very possible someone saw her walking all messed up where she couldn't defend herself and took her.

 

[sammi89]

I dont comment on this case much . Im probably the only one with the opinion I have. I think its possible none of these people had anything to do with her disappearance. Drugs and alcohol yes. I think its very possible someone saw her walking all messed up where she couldn't defend herself and took her.

I think that is plausible if she was in a condition to leave. That's the part I always get hung up on - it doesn't seem like she would be able to leave in the condition that she's been described in. If she really did leave, I think that is a very possible outcome though.

I'm not as familiar with the camera set-up at the time, but does anyone know how short the window of opportunity was to evade being seen on any cameras for someone to grab her? Also, how difficult would it be that once a SO actually had her, that they would be able to take her somewhere without being seen either on camera or by witnesses, taking into account that it was late so there would be less people around? It seems like it would be difficult to accomplish both of those.

 

[bessie]

MOD NOTE: The rule on WS is that a "fact" must be supported with a link to an acceptable source. Anyone who chooses to post a "fact" without a link -- or can't because the link is not a WS approved source of fact -- should expect to be challenged, and rightly so. Try the shoe on the other foot, and see if it works. (It doesn't for me.) Very few of us will accept a relevant "fact" at face value. :woot: Amen for that.

Also, keep this in mind as it's very important. Family, friends, and associates of case players are off limits to speculation. If you have a solid theory based on valid documentation, but it involves a third party, "innocent bystander", state your case to a mod/admin before you post it in the thread. If it has merit, the mods might be able to advise you on the correct way to go about it.


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:tyou:

Bessie

 

[Dixie811]

I would love to know whether any of the POI's (aside from JW, obviously) had a girlfriend at or soon after the time of Lauren's disappearance.

What a great person that would be for LE to go back and interview now, 3 years later.

 

[Ixchel13]

I would love to know whether any of the POI's (aside from JW, obviously) had a girlfriend at or soon after the time of Lauren's disappearance.

What a great person that would be for LE to go back and interview now, 3 years later.

But...,if we did know of a girlfriend, we wouldn't be allowed to sleuth her here, if I am reading Bessie's post correctly. And even if I do know the answer to that, I wouldn't be allowed to post it,

 

[AbbeyR]

I still think ignoring any possible scenario that involves just JW and JR is biased against a larger, grander, more speculative conspiracy.

The problem is, there's no indication that JW had anything to do with Lauren or JR that night, while JR, MB and CR were together, passed Lauren off to one another, have protected each other in their accounts, and their lawyers have collaborated (according to MB's lawyer in a statement made around June 10) since they were first hired.

Looking at the timeline leading up to Lauren's disappearance raises questions about all of the guys at 5 N, not just JR, since their stories are intertwined. For ex, MB: If MB had really just dropped Lauren off and had nothing to do with anything, Why did he originally omit this from his story? Why did his lawyer originally say he was home all night writing papers, when he wasn't? And - Did he originally cover for CR about Lauren's condition (implying Lauren was fine when she arrived, visited for a bit and left on her own looking to 'party') or JR about Lauren making the phone calls? (The story that emerged from MB that Lauren was in really bad condition, that he took her to JR's, and that he witnessed or helped JR make those calls came out much later). It's never been clear when the last time MB saw Lauren was, what time he left 5 N to take her to JR's, and what time he left JR's. Again, if he had simply dropped her off and had nothing to do with anything else, why wouldn't he have been totally straightforward about this from the beginning.

So, if hypothetically JR was involved, it raises a lot of questions about MB and CR's stories as they are connected, while any connection between JR and JW is purely speculative, because there's nothing to suggest it.

JMO

 

[bessie]

But...,if we did know of a girlfriend, we wouldn't be allowed to sleuth her here, if I am reading Bessie's post correctly. And even if I do know the answer to that, I wouldn't be allowed to post it,

That's correct.

 

[Dixie811]

But...,if we did know of a girlfriend, we wouldn't be allowed to sleuth her here, if I am reading Bessie's post correctly. And even if I do know the answer to that, I wouldn't be allowed to post it,

Thanks, I am aware of the rules :seeya:. Wasn't going to sleuth anyone on here. Was just speaking about what LE could look into re-visiting that may benefit the investigation.

 

[Ixchel13]

The problem is, there's no indication that JW had anything to do with Lauren or JR that night, while JR, MB and CR were together, passed Lauren off to one another, have protected each other in their accounts, and their lawyers have collaborated (according to MB's lawyer in a statement made around June 10) since they were first hired.

Looking at the timeline leading up to Lauren's disappearance raises questions about all of the guys at 5 N, not just JR, since their stories are intertwined. For ex, MB: If MB had really just dropped Lauren off and had nothing to do with anything, Why did he originally omit this from his story? Why did his lawyer originally say he was home all night writing papers, when he wasn't? And - Did he originally cover for CR about Lauren's condition (implying Lauren was fine when she arrived, visited for a bit and left on her own looking to 'party') or JR about Lauren making the phone calls? (The story that emerged from MB that Lauren was in really bad condition, that he took her to JR's, and that he witnessed or helped JR make those calls came out much later). It's never been clear when the last time MB saw Lauren was, what time he left 5 N to take her to JR's, and what time he left JR's. Again, if he had simply dropped her off and had nothing to do with anything else, why wouldn't he have been totally straightforward about this from the beginning.

So, if hypothetically JR was involved, it raises a lot of questions about MB and CR's stories as they are connected, while any connection between JR and JW is purely speculative, because there's nothing to suggest it.

JMO

JW is a POI. We're allowed to sleuth him. Why he's a POI can only be speculation for us because we don't know why LE considers him a POI and he hasn't been cleared. We are allowed to speculate about POIs and I will continue to include JW in various speculations until he is either cleared by LE or charged by LE. JW was the president of the frat at the time when they were kicked off campus for various drug charges including drugging, i.e. administering rufies. You don't get to the position of being president over these thugs by being an innocent bystander or by being drug free. AEPis have a nasty reputation for misogyny. I have worked with some of them and they are true to this rep. Would they all lie for each other? In a heartbeat.

warning, SPECULATION, JMO MOO: I think he's a POI because he doesn't really have an alibi, if everyone was asleep at his house, how can anyone know if someone left? He could also be a POI because of what was found on Lauren's phone that we don't know about. He could be a POI because maybe they found out from witnesses we don't know about that he found out Lauren was meeting up with CR. He could be a POI because he and his dad went over and confronted CR. He could be a POI because he refused to take an LE poly and lawyered up right away.
JW already had connections with JR, JW was the president of AEPi, and JR was his frat brother. At first when all kinds of misinfo was being spread about who knew who and who was close to whom, it was said that JR and JW were frat buds but not close. That was the reason for attempting to show that they did have connections, and I think we did show that they had some in MI.

 

[Mahouston69]

JW is a POI. We're allowed to sleuth him. Why he's a POI can only be speculation for us because we don't know why LE considers him a POI and he hasn't been cleared. We are allowed to speculate about POIs and I will continue to include JW in various speculations until he is either cleared by LE or charged by LE. JW was the president of the frat at the time when they were kicked off campus for various drug charges including drugging, i.e. administering rufies. You don't get to the position of being president over these thugs by being an innocent bystander or by being drug free. AEPis have a nasty reputation for misogyny. I have worked with some of them and they are true to this rep. Would they all lie for each other? In a heartbeat.

warning, SPECULATION, JMO MOO: I think he's a POI because he doesn't really have an alibi, if everyone was asleep at his house, how can anyone know if someone left? He could also be a POI because of what was found on Lauren's phone that we don't know about. He could be a POI because maybe they found out from witnesses we don't know about that he found out Lauren was meeting up with CR. He could be a POI because he and his dad went over and confronted CR. He could be a POI because he refused to take an LE poly and lawyered up right away.
JW already had connections with JR, JW was the president of AEPi, and JR was his frat brother. At first when all kinds of misinfo was being spread about who knew who and who was close to whom, it was said that JR and JW were frat buds but not close. That was the reason for attempting to show that they did have connections, and I think we did show that they had some in MI.

Agree. I will just add that LS and JR knew each other 20 years. Their grandparents lived on the same street. She was with JW several years and seems she hung out with JR quite a bit as friends, and they also happened to be frat brothers with each other. I'm sure they knew enough about each other to have to cover for one another. I don't think it makes any sense that JR wouldn't call JW. He knew she didn't have shoes, her phone, or a way to get into her building right? That's why DR was called? No answer...who do you call or message next? Do you contact them on an untraceable phone?

These two left town, within days, lawyered up and shut up. CR and MB stayed, went about their normal business. A solid defense is tough if you don't remember any of it (CR) or weren't with LS most of the night (MB) discrepancies are bound to occur unless you "get your story straight". Who's story sounds exactly the same every time they tell it?

According to this article there are at least 10 POIs..nobody has been cleared except the white truck driver as far as we know, correct?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/person-mis...story?id=13950271&ref=https://www.google.com/

 

[Ixchel13]

Agree. I will just add that LS and JR knew each other 20 years. Their grandparents lived on the same street. She was with JW several years and seems she hung out with JR quite a bit as friends, and they also happened to be frat brothers with each other. I'm sure they knew enough about each other to have to cover for one another. I don't think it makes any sense that JR wouldn't call JW. He knew she didn't have shoes, her phone, or a way to get into her building right? That's why DR was called? No answer...who do you call or message next? Do you contact them on an untraceable phone?

These two left town, within days, lawyered up and shut up. CR and MB stayed, went about their normal business. A solid defense is tough if you don't remember any of it (CR) or weren't with LS most of the night (MB) discrepancies are bound to occur unless you "get your story straight". Who's story sounds exactly the same every time they tell it?

According to this article there are at least 10 POIs..nobody has been cleared except the white truck driver as far as we know, correct?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/person-mis...story?id=13950271&ref=https://www.google.com/

exactly.