I think that is just entirely too much benefit of the doubt if not wishful thinking to hope he couldn't be involved.
There's plenty of motivation for a crime of passion and worlds more with just a little speculation added into the equation.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32
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I think that is just entirely too much benefit of the doubt if not wishful thinking to hope he couldn't be involved.
There's plenty of motivation for a crime of passion and worlds more with just a little speculation added into the equation.
It's not wishful thinking on my part. I'd welcome something more to go on! I just don't see what would drive him, apart from possibly thinking LS had hung out with CR on other occasions than Indy and that night. Why would he feel jilted based on what they were doing at the time? She was allegedly intoxicated to the point of not walking or thinking straight. If anything, CR would have been taking advantage of her. If JW was going to after anyone, it would make more sense for it to have been CR. JMO.
Why do you think there's motivation for a crime of passion? Just because she was hanging out with a guy who may have been coming on to her? I haven't heard anything to suggest that LS was reciprocating any advances. I'd be more open to the thought if it appeared they were broken up at the time. But I can't find evidence of that ...
JMO, but I'm not feeling it. I do, however, think JW knows more about what happened that night than he's sharing, and I'd love to know why. The silence surrounding this case is beyond eerie.
It's pretty simple really-
She was out with a guy that wasn't her boyfriend. I don't know how we can say that wasn't enough to matter to him. Things like that have mattered to plenty of significant others.
Add in that they'd met a couple of weeks before, we've been told, at the Indy 500. So there's some kind of history (innocent or not) for him to have a chance to be aware of this as a developing situation.
That is plenty for me to see the potential motivation of jealous boyfriend/crime of passion. I'm not saying that is what must've happened... I'm just saying that's plenty right there to not discount this angle.
And what did that really mean that they'd 'met' a couple of weeks before? How is it they only met at the Indy 500 considering their circle of friends, proximity, apartments, etc? But I digress... the main thing is I don't see how we can give JW the benefit of the doubt knowing only what we know. If anything, knowing only what we know, he absolutely should not get any benefit of the doubt. IMHO
She was out with a guy that wasn't her boyfriend. I don't know how we can say that wasn't enough to matter to him. Things like that have mattered to plenty of significant others.
Add in that they'd met a couple of weeks before, we've been told, at the Indy 500. So there's some kind of history (innocent or not) for him to have a chance to be aware of this as a developing situation.
That is plenty for me to see the potential motivation of jealous boyfriend/crime of passion. I'm not saying that is what must've happened... I'm just saying that's plenty right there to not discount this angle.
And what did that really mean that they'd 'met' a couple of weeks before? How is it they only met at the Indy 500 considering their circle of friends, proximity, apartments, etc? But I digress... the main thing is I don't see how we can give JW the benefit of the doubt knowing only what we know. If anything, knowing only what we know, he absolutely should not get any benefit of the doubt. IMHO
Snipped by me. Re: speculation. This is speculation on my part, which usually bites me. I suppose one possible motivation could be if someone told JW that LS was hanging onto CR or something like that (vs. him carrying her around). In other words, if there was a troublemaker in their midst. But I'd think that if he observed her actual state, he'd question something like that ...
I'm not sure that matters. Plenty of boyfriends have been jealous of girlfriends for doing things they didn't like. Even if there was nothing going on. Just being with CR might be enough to be seen as reciprocating advances if you're JW.
Who knows what would be in his mind in a scenario like this? If it was a crime of passion then thinking clearly likely wouldn't be something we should count on. Another reason not to extend the benefit of the doubt.
Snipped by me. Ehhh ... she was also out with a guy earlier that night who wasn't her boyfriendDR. And she went to a party at an apartment owned by a guy who wasn't her boyfriendJR. From what I see IRL, that's pretty common with young people nowadays ... people hang out with members of the opposite sex for various reasons.
If she was on a bona fide DATE with CR I'd be more inclined to agree.
Well I agree that we can't get into JW's head. But, again reflecting on the fact that LS left SW with another guy than JW (DR) and even gone to Indy with a group including other guys, it seems to me that she wasn't stuck to JW like glue. JMO. But who knows ... maybe that was wearing on him.
Exactly. And one point that struck me months ago on a point like this (that someone from the SW confrontation or others contacted him), always had a hole in it that either that person was a loose end or else there'd be a record of the contact (unless it was made in person). But then I realized considering the history going back to the 500, the proximity, the circle of friends...etc... JW could've been strongly suspecting something and was stalking/spying. So there doesn't really have to be someone tipping him off where she was or what was going on that night.
He could've figured it out.
Not sure I follow? Do you mean even if he was angry his feelings would turn when he saw her in an intoxicated state and feel sorry for her and want to help her? I'd feel it could be the exact opposite of that. I could see that being the point he'd snap. In his mind: "Instead of staying home where she belonged and talking and texting with him she was out getting messed up with a guy (or bunch of guys) and disrepecting him and their relationship"
Snipped by me. What I mean is that he'd see that she couldn't have willingly DONE anything with CR. I suppose he could have been so controlling that he didn't like her to hang with other guys, but the fact that she went to Indy in the first place and allegedly partied at JR's the year before with HT doesn't suggest that to me. It would help to know more about their relationship, of course ...
I agree with akh that if any speculation that he is possessive/jealous is true, I would seriously question him. Even if it none of that was shown, I would question him more if it was true he knew what she was up to or it was shown he was lying about either being asleep or his whereabouts.
Right now, that is speculation for the public. AKAIK, nothing has been shown to support the above publicly, but if there is any reason to doubt it, hopefully LE is aware and is investigating or did investigate it.
IMO, I still think there would be a few issues with JW behind anything
- how did he get to LS without any witnesses seeing him or surveillance?
- was it possible for LS to get to him in the state she was in? If so, how did she get there with no witnesses or surveillance seeing her?
- if it was a crime of passion and JW confronted her, did anyone hear arguing/shouting? Not that this would be necessary, but IMO I don't think he would just off her without some kind of argument first.
It seems like she was spotted by people or surveillance until her arrival back at 5N. Everything after that is just what the 5N POIs have said. I'm not sure why it would be different if she walked the six blocks to JW's. Not to say that it isn't possible, but IMO that seems unlikely.
Like I said when I first mentioned CR and JW pointing fingers at each other - I don't mean to take away from crimes of passion. They are fairly common, although IMO, CR was interested too so he should be considered for the same reasons. Maybe she turned him down and he was upset. He knew where she was and was with her that night. JW wasn't, as far as we know.
It just seems more likely, IMO, that her disappearance is linked to people who were in that area at the time, whether it is 5N or a stranger or an acquaintance. If it could be shown that JW was in that area at the time, he would be my number one suspect too.
Right now, that is speculation for the public. AKAIK, nothing has been shown to support the above publicly, but if there is any reason to doubt it, hopefully LE is aware and is investigating or did investigate it.
IMO, I still think there would be a few issues with JW behind anything
- how did he get to LS without any witnesses seeing him or surveillance?
- was it possible for LS to get to him in the state she was in? If so, how did she get there with no witnesses or surveillance seeing her?
- if it was a crime of passion and JW confronted her, did anyone hear arguing/shouting? Not that this would be necessary, but IMO I don't think he would just off her without some kind of argument first.
It seems like she was spotted by people or surveillance until her arrival back at 5N. Everything after that is just what the 5N POIs have said. I'm not sure why it would be different if she walked the six blocks to JW's. Not to say that it isn't possible, but IMO that seems unlikely.
Like I said when I first mentioned CR and JW pointing fingers at each other - I don't mean to take away from crimes of passion. They are fairly common, although IMO, CR was interested too so he should be considered for the same reasons. Maybe she turned him down and he was upset. He knew where she was and was with her that night. JW wasn't, as far as we know.
It just seems more likely, IMO, that her disappearance is linked to people who were in that area at the time, whether it is 5N or a stranger or an acquaintance. If it could be shown that JW was in that area at the time, he would be my number one suspect too.
I agree, and would also wonder if her described state is accurate, whether he would become worried enough about her heart condition to take her to a hospital. Also, he would have found her with a BRUISED FACE according to JR. IDK, IMO, I question whether he would have been so angry that he would kill her instead of taking her to a hospital based on her heart condition and bruised face alone. IMO, if he found her in that state he would be more interested in confronting CR, not LS. Just my opinion! :twocents:
But it couldn't have been the first time she'd partied without JW being around, I'd think. I mean, they'd gone out for what, three years?
I agree. It seems like everyone was ready to believe she was missing fairly early on: JW, friends, LS' parents, JW's parents, etc. I also don't like how quickly the OD rumors started.
I wanted to highlight this because I hadn't thought of that before and am actually surprised it hasn't been brought up before. This is true. I don't think it necessarily takes away from the other points myself and others have brought up in regards to JW, but I do agree that JW didn't necessarily need to be informed if anyone was posting to social media. They all appeared to be pretty active social media users.
We know something happened. And we know it must not have been witnessed or on video tape or else this case would look totally differently. So that, to me, means JW not getting seen in the act really doesn't mean anything either way.
Snipped by me. One thing that comes to mind is that maybe JW heard "what" she'd taken and drank that night and knew that it wasn't a good idea, based on her heart condition. It might also be another reason he was angry at CR ...
One thing that bothers me about JW being involved is that it, too, implies she was able to leave 5N, or that JR and Co. let her leave in the state she was in, which I still question. JW obviously wouldn't have barged in to JR's and dragged her out!
Let's say she did leave and he found her. What would have happened next? He could have physically harmed her and disposed of her in the same places we've thought other POIs disposing of her in ... in a construction zone, sewer system, etc. It might be useful to look at the maps and see how that would look from somewhere between JW's and 5N.
I'd think it might have been detected if he'd used his car to take her somewhere, although I do remember reading that he drove a friend to class the next morning.
I used to wonder why JW got the key from HT to let himself in, but considering that she wasn't answering her phone, I suppose he thought she might be passed out. That, IMO, would imply that he didn't know what happened to her. If he did, would he take that step to try and throw things off? Just trying to consider the possibilities ...
Good point. Did he or his father drive home or fly home? If they flew home, that would narrow the area and the time JW would have had to hide her, if involved. If they drove and she is somewhere between IN & NY, that means his dad would have to be involved and also increase the time to dispose and possible locations. Did JW take his car anywhere for service once back in NY? Did he return to IN with the same car?
Would LE have someone follow the boys (JW, CR, JR, MB) on their way home if they were driving and if they suspected them? IDK if that is something they do given the distances, but then they could hopefully eliminate out of state disposals, unless it was a guest or a stranger not yet identified at the time so they wouldn't have known to keep an eye on them.
IIRC, I think some people have considered whether he got her key to get evidence out of her room? I'm not sure what evidence would be in her room if it was a crime of passion though.
It would be interesting to see when JW started reaching out to people and what their responses were - did they give him a reason to freak out?
Related to people reaching out, I wonder if JR ever reached out to HT to see if LS made it back? I still think it is odd that out of everyone he could have called that night, HT wasn't one of them. Even if LS walked out, he could have sent a text saying,"By the way, LS is heading back. She doesn't have her phone and she is messed up/has a bruised face. Keep an eye out for her." Did he bother to text the next day even to ask if she made it back alright?
It doesn't necessarily mean anything but it stands out to me.
I also have been wondering about his reasoning for the two phone calls. JR claims he was looking for someone to give LS a ride home, but I wonder how well that actually holds up. He claims he knew DR was doing Klonopin with LS. Would he really be in a position to be driving? If the cops saw him and he was impaired, DR's probably looking at a DUI. I wonder if the other person JR called was also similarly impaired?
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