IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[sammi89]

It's meaningless to focus on it, let alone draw a conclusion from it (particularly that MB has changed his story several time), because it wasn't in a situation where we could expect 100% accuracy. We might hope for 100% accuracy but it's not a prepared statement, it's early in the case (where details could still be sketchy and not sorted out), and it's not a stretch to think it was done as PR spin (if not a bit of opportunistic grandstanding). It's not so far from the info that was released later (mainly via PI's and civil filings) that it would be an eye opening question (such as if he'd said MB was nowhere near the apartments that night, or even in Bloomington).

But there is a bigger reason it is meaningless: Because we don't know what MB said to police and investigators in the first place, let alone actually said to his attorney or someone in his office. We have nothing to compare it to that is 100% MB's own words.

So we're left declaring his story has changed without actually knowing what his story is and has been all along. That is why it's meaningless.

I asked Holly to put on her criminal defense attorney hat and step into this scenario to look at it from the other side but she didn't do it. But all you have to do is put yourself in MB's attorney's shoes (whether as a new attorney or the original attorney of record that made the statement in the first place), and then ask yourself how much of a problem that attorney comment actually is. Look at it from the angle of it dealing with the prosecutor, in a court of law, or the jury of public opinion. It becomes meaningless.

We can wonder if MB's story has really changed and if the attorney was 100% accurate to what MB had told him when he was interviewed. We can wonder if the neighbor heard and understood what MB was telling him/her and then relayed it accurately to a reporter and whether the reporter got it right. But we can't definitively declare his story has changed because we haven't even heard his story. It does a disservice to the narrative to declare or even imply otherwise. At that point it is speculation and assumption only.

And I'm sorry but this entire topic goes back much earlier in the thread where it was stated that hearing from MB's attorney was the same as hearing from MB. That's not true. It wasn't true all those months ago and it isn't true now. Certainly not in the context we're describing here.

MB's story might've changed... but we have nothing concrete to say anything more than 'might've'.

I'd end that by saying IMHO... But that's not an opinion. That is a fact.

The lawyer’s statement is brought up as one reason why some have the opinion that MB’s story has changed, which doesn’t require 100% accurate information, which is often not available anyway. Most people are forced to make decisions daily using incomplete information. Opinions are subject to change with additional information.

MB selected and paid for this particular individual to represent him and speak on his behalf. It’s not the same as MB himself, but it is perhaps more meaningful than others repeating stories MB may or may not have told them. Additionally, lawyers are supposed to follow certain standards and rules, which Ros has already specified so I won’t repeat.

I’m not sure it’s necessary for holly to “put on her defense attorney hat on,” as you put it, because the other side would be to acknowledge the possibility MB has provided a consistent story to LE that accounts for everything, which holly did, even if she thinks otherwise.

IMO, pointing this out may be of service to Lauren. I think, at best, this might provide LE (or the PIs) with new perspectives and they are in a better position to determine whether or not MB’s initial story adds up and can choose to ignore it or not.

 

[HauntsForHope]

WS in the news ...

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2014/jun/03/volunteers-keep-search-missing-iu-student/

 

[Jmoose]

This has probably been said a number of times, but by whose estimation were any of these people Lauren's friends? If the best my friends could do was say, "yes she was messed up, but she wanted to go back home in the middle of the night without a key or shoes, so we let her", I would consider myself very lacking in friendship. Her roommate, boyfriend and everyone else with whom she associated seemed pretty unconcerned about her-was she a monster that nobody liked? I don't believe that's the case, so why isn't anybody in Bloomington advocating for her? Or can we hope that someone, with whom she attended college, is working quietly, and under the radar to her benefit? Obviously, the boys that she was hanging out with that night have something major to hide, even if they aren't directly responsible for her disappearance-and to save themselves (because they don't care one bit about Lauren), they won't tell what they know about that night. Actually, IMO, those guys provided her with the drugs that she was seeking, and she died, leaving them with a big problem that they think she, not they, should be responsible for-and they have no intention of paying the price for it. I don't believe any of them think they should be held legally responsible for hiding her body after she died. I hope it keeps them up at night, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[Ixchel13]

AR, the female friend of LS? He is also friends with her friend SG.

Do we know the name of the other male friend who received the early morning call? I would think that person would be on the witness lists.

that's what I'm thinking too.

 

[Ixchel13]

I agree with you that from the very beginning it was obvious that ZO nor his crew cared about Lauren during that altercation. It was about something else. ZO was never prosecuted for clearly assaulting and battering CR with CR not fighting back. Very curious. LE has never explained why ZO was not prosecuted. There has not been any public disclosure from CR or ZO(or his crew) about the true nature of the altercation. People speculated that it was about Lauren, but the video proves they did nothing but ignore her. LE went after this video rabidly. But that's about the only thing they went after with such ferocity it seems.

when they broke down the doors and confiscated the surveillance materials, they got much, much more than just the altercation. And I'm even wondering if they didn't wait to get it on purpose until June 7th, to see who went where, when, met with whom, congregated in which rooms, and removed or added whatever, during the morning hours of Lauren's disappearance up to 3 days later..

 

[Ixchel13]

Holly, I have never seen a link that says Lauren's FAKE ID was found nor her SW KEYCARD. These 2 items were very curiously noted in one of JR's public statements that he had seen them before she "walked out". These particular items have been extremely troubling to me because everything else in her possession including the wallet she normally kept these things in was left behind. It makes no sense that these things would be in her hands after losing everything else - that does not fit! This means that someone else had them, took them, or they were on her person when she fell face down. Personally I do not see anything that shows she ever walked again.
So JR noting these 2 items is highly suspicious to me.

If you have some link that shows her FAKE ID was found, I would like to know.

Her keys to her apartment door were found at SW. Her key card and student ID along her supposed route. Then, LE said her roommate found her ID
and turned it in to law enforcement. Some think that means her real ID, I don't. This is discussed, with links, on pages 11- 12-13-14 on this very thread.

 

[Ixchel13]

The lawyer’s statement is brought up as one reason why some have the opinion that MB’s story has changed, which doesn’t require 100% accurate information, which is often not available anyway. Most people are forced to make decisions daily using incomplete information. Opinions are subject to change with additional information.

MB selected and paid for this particular individual to represent him and speak on his behalf. It’s not the same as MB himself, but it is perhaps more meaningful than others repeating stories MB may or may not have told them. Additionally, lawyers are supposed to follow certain standards and rules, which Ros has already specified so I won’t repeat.

I’m not sure it’s necessary for holly to “put on her defense attorney hat on,” as you put it, because the other side would be to acknowledge the possibility MB has provided a consistent story to LE that accounts for everything, which holly did, even if she thinks otherwise.

IMO, pointing this out may be of service to Lauren. I think, at best, this might provide LE (or the PIs) with new perspectives and they are in a better position to determine whether or not MB’s initial story adds up and can choose to ignore it or not.

Isn't it obvious, and haven't we all almost unanimously agreed that these
guys are lying? So, changing stories is part of that, isn't it? To me, it isn't a revelation that a liar changes a story. Or that his lawyer does too. The fact that a judge let him wiggle out
of the civil suit (boo!) doesn't mean he won't face anything in the future.
You can see he's in a "pickle" between CR and JR. How will each of the remaining 2 guys' attorneys attempt to cultivate/skewer MB? does he think they won't? they will try to ascertain which guy had the most duty of care, even if both get punished.
All due respect to people in the legal field, but we know how ya'll will act sometimes. notice I said sometimes.:truce:

 

[Ros]

There's a fine line between actually lying and manipulating the truth to one's benefit. In the cartoon at the link below, the pointy-haired manager refers to the other department heads as "professional liars." In most companies, these individuals may not actually lie, but they may well manipulate the truth to their own or to the company's benefit.

http://twentytwowords.com/dilbert-his-boss-agree—corporate-department-heads-are-professional-liars/

 

[Vidocq]

Her keys to her apartment door were found at SW. Her key card and student ID along her supposed route. Then, LE said her roommate found her ID
and turned it in to law enforcement. Some think that means her real ID, I don't. This is discussed, with links, on pages 11- 12-13-14 on this very thread.

Her apartment door key was found at SW? Do you have a link for that? The only links I can find have to do with keys found between the alley and 5N, with her "purse". From descriptions, it sounds like the "purse", called a "coin or card purse" by LE, sounds like a little thing worn on the wrist. And accounts associate it with "keys", and a "railing" near the alley. So I picture: the wrist pouch becomes detached after they leave the alley at 2:55. (Due to a struggle?) So, then, someone is said to have seen "keys" around there, and then put the "keys" on a "railing". Then later the "keys" are found on the railing, and turned into the police, as far as I understand it. So I'm assuming that what's being called "keys" here is the wrist pouch, which contains a key or keys, and according to some accounts a key card and an ID. And the wrist pouch was found attached to the railing, I'm assuming. I found a railing at the north end of the infamous alley. (I'll try to post a picture later today. I'm at work, where uploading isn't allowed.)

If it's true that her school ID or her fake ID and her key card were in the pouch say, but then her real ID and her room key were found in her room that gives me an idea: perhaps she would put the less important stuff in her wrist pouch, which is more exposed. Her real ID she'd want to hide from the prying eyes of door men (assuming she didn't leave it at SW), and her room key is less replaceable than the more general access-to-SW card key, so is also worth extra protection. So, maybe the less important stuff is in the wrist pouch when it gets knocked off right after they exit the alley at 2:55. (As I may have mentioned previously, there's sort of a nook in the wall around the corner as you exit the alley and turn left, toward the erstwhile gravel lot, behind the aforementioned railing, that might be a good place to try to force yourself on someone.) So, maybe the real ID and the room key are someplace more concealed (a hidden pants pocket, in her bra). So then those wouldn't be discovered, perhaps, until the process of body hiding is going on, and they have to think of something to do with them. So, they sneak them back into her room. Just speculating.

And, for some reason, the idea of removing a key and an ID from her, after she died, if that's what happened, suggests to me that her body was placed somewhere where it would decompose faster than usual, like in a sewer. I mean, if you're just dumping her in the woods somewhere, or in a deep body of water, would you bother to remove her ID? But, if it's somewhere where you can count on chemical decomposition to be working, like a sewer, a barrel of chemicals, maybe you'd take the ID off of her body, thinking that the chemicals are going to render the body unidentifiable, so you don't want the ID to be there. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's a thought I had. Come to think of it, I've heard of cases where easily identified bodies are just thrown in the woods, and yet the ID and purse are thrown in a separate location, so maybe I'm wrong. More speculation.

 

[Vidocq]

Does anyone find it odd that two BPD detectives are mentioned by name in CR's list of witnesses to be called in his defense at the civil trial? (Source: Pacer.gov). Does CR have friends at the BPD? Does this support the rumor that he was a police informant? Am I remembering that rumor correctly?

 

[AbbeyR]

Her keys to her apartment door were found at SW. Her key card and student ID along her supposed route. Then, LE said her roommate found her ID
and turned it in to law enforcement. Some think that means her real ID, I don't. This is discussed, with links, on pages 11- 12-13-14 on this very thread.

I don't think this is correct.

Her student ID and keys were found when she dropped them on the way to 5 N:

She later would drop her keys and student ID card before the two crossed a rocky lot to his apartment.

The person who saw her things, that were later put on a railing, described seeing an actual key

he saw a small purple pouch with a gold key shortly before 3 a.m. that morning on the sidewalk near that building. He said he left it there and that a friend of his put it on a railing when he saw it there a few hours later.

JR claims she had her "fake ID and Smallwood key card" with her at 5 N

There is another report that "her ID was found at her apartment and her roommate turned it over to police". There's nothing to suggest this was fake ID.

If I'm missing something, please add the info/ link.

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree with you that from the very beginning it was obvious that ZO nor his crew cared about Lauren during that altercation. It was about something else. ZO was never prosecuted for clearly assaulting and battering CR with CR not fighting back. Very curious. LE has never explained why ZO was not prosecuted. There has not been any public disclosure from CR or ZO(or his crew) about the true nature of the altercation. People speculated that it was about Lauren, but the video proves they did nothing but ignore her. LE went after this video rabidly. But that's about the only thing they went after with such ferocity it seems.

BBM: Well, someone gave (anonymous) statements to the media describing the reason for the altercation, which matches the account told to the private investigators in the LoHud video- that Corey was acting aggressively and inappropriately towards Lauren, they asked him to stop and bring her to her room, and he started swearing at them, which is when CR got punched.

Students who spotted the pair told the New York Post Lauren was 'clearly very inebriated.'

They also said Rossman had been bothering her and had then got angry when they asked him to stop. 'He was being overly aggressive...being so belligerent,' one told the paper.

(link)

 

[AbbeyR]

Those are a lot of details to fabricate if he had not even talked with his client yet? But MB doesn't get confronted with any of this, he gets released from the civil case?? Aren't the Spierer's lawyers or LE aware of these huge gaps in MB's statements?

I think, from their statements about MB, that they are definitely aware of the gaps and inconsistencies in MB's stories. Unfortunately, the civil case hinges on who gave Lauren alcohol, rather than the bigger questions about what really happened to her and who is responsible, and this is why the POI are trying to limit the questions/ evidence requested.

But, as Ixchel said above, this doesn't mean he won't face anything in the future. He is still a witness, and there's nothing to suggest he's been let off the hook by LE in the investigation into Lauren's disappearance.

 

[Vidocq]

BBM: Well, someone gave (anonymous) statements to the media describing the reason for the altercation, which matches the account told to the private investigators in the LoHud video- that Corey was acting aggressively and inappropriately towards Lauren, they asked him to stop and bring her to her room, and he started swearing at them, which is when CR got punched.

(link)

The context of the Daily Mail article doesn't seem to indicate that the anonymous students are necessarily describing what lead up to CR's getting punched, but just that they observed him behaving that way at some point. Granted, the PI's do appear to have witnesses that describe the lead up to the punch as being about Lauren.

 

[AbbeyR]

The context of the Daily Mail article doesn't seem to indicate that the anonymous students are necessarily describing what lead up to CR's getting punched, but just that they observed him behaving that way at some point. Granted, the PI's do appear to have witnesses that describe the lead up to the punch as being about Lauren.

Yes, it's possible these were other witnesses who had a similar encounter, since they are not identified. But if you listen to the account of the altercation at Smallwood in the LoHud video, it sounds pretty similar. Both the video and article state that they intervened because they were worried about Lauren's well being and Corey's behavior towards her.

http://archive.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

This also seems believable to me, since we then have another encounter with a random person on the street (bar manager witness) who describes a very similar experience: Seeing Lauren in really bad shape with Corey, stopping to see if she is okay, having Corey tell her he was in control of the situation, and unfortunately, not stopping him or getting her help.

It's also possible that there is more to the story of the altercation. Who knows. But unlike others, I don't think the story is unbelievable, just because they didn't succeed in stopping Corey or helping Lauren.

 

[Ixchel13]

Her apartment door key was found at SW? Do you have a link for that? The only links I can find have to do with keys found between the alley and 5N, with her "purse". From descriptions, it sounds like the "purse", called a "coin or card purse" by LE, sounds like a little thing worn on the wrist. And accounts associate it with "keys", and a "railing" near the alley. So I picture: the wrist pouch becomes detached after they leave the alley at 2:55. (Due to a struggle?) So, then, someone is said to have seen "keys" around there, and then put the "keys" on a "railing". Then later the "keys" are found on the railing, and turned into the police, as far as I understand it. So I'm assuming that what's being called "keys" here is the wrist pouch, which contains a key or keys, and according to some accounts a key card and an ID. And the wrist pouch was found attached to the railing, I'm assuming. I found a railing at the north end of the infamous alley. (I'll try to post a picture later today. I'm at work, where uploading isn't allowed.)

If it's true that her school ID or her fake ID and her key card were in the pouch say, but then her real ID and her room key were found in her room that gives me an idea: perhaps she would put the less important stuff in her wrist pouch, which is more exposed. Her real ID she'd want to hide from the prying eyes of door men (assuming she didn't leave it at SW), and her room key is less replaceable than the more general access-to-SW card key, so is also worth extra protection. So, maybe the less important stuff is in the wrist pouch when it gets knocked off right after they exit the alley at 2:55. (As I may have mentioned previously, there's sort of a nook in the wall around the corner as you exit the alley and turn left, toward the erstwhile gravel lot, behind the aforementioned railing, that might be a good place to try to force yourself on someone.) So, maybe the real ID and the room key are someplace more concealed (a hidden pants pocket, in her bra). So then those wouldn't be discovered, perhaps, until the process of body hiding is going on, and they have to think of something to do with them. So, they sneak them back into her room. Just speculating.

And, for some reason, the idea of removing a key and an ID from her, after she died, if that's what happened, suggests to me that her body was placed somewhere where it would decompose faster than usual, like in a sewer. I mean, if you're just dumping her in the woods somewhere, or in a deep body of water, would you bother to remove her ID? But, if it's somewhere where you can count on chemical decomposition to be working, like a sewer, a barrel of chemicals, maybe you'd take the ID off of her body, thinking that the chemicals are going to render the body unidentifiable, so you don't want the ID to be there. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's a thought I had. Come to think of it, I've heard of cases where easily identified bodies are just thrown in the woods, and yet the ID and purse are thrown in a separate location, so maybe I'm wrong. More speculation.

let's see, a link? a few pages back, Bessie gave us the entire audio catalogue from LE
of all press conferences, starting from the first one. Listen to the first 6, Qualters describes where Lauren left her things, and where things were found during these press conferences. In the first 6 conferences, he mentions her belongings and where she lost/left them several times. To get the gist of it, you're going to have to listen to them.

Think about it. She would never have her real ID with her. That would be kept safely in the apt. LE was never looking for her real ID. Why would they?
I'm not sure I even want to debate it any more. If a roommate found it, and turned it in, it could mean JR or someone else found it, even later that evening on the 4th, and gave it to a roommate, who then turned it in a coupla days later. It could mean the roommate found it on the ground at SW during the altercation, or in the hallway somewhere, but again, why would JR take the blame and say he saw it?
Really, I was just pointing out an inconsistency in their stories/actions that would have made LE suspect foul play and friends lying, and that includes
possibly roommates being suspected not in her demise, but in helping the POIs maintain innocence.

I'll go back and find Bessie's post with the conference catalogue, because Qualters definitely says Lauren left or lost her apartment keys at SW, along with other articles that he won't say. He says something like she left various personal effects at SW, for example her keys. {he does not say keycard}

ok here's Bessie's link to the briefings: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81917.
in these briefings you will get exactly what LE is releasing, not what reporters or other social media posters are saying/ implying, or surmising they released.

BTW, I think she lost her keys because she or he had them out when she and CR came back to SW right before the altercation. but iirc, Qualters says she left personal effects behind at SW, he doesn't say, she lost or dropped personal effects.

I don't have any trouble believing CR, MB, and JR had something to do with this. I'm just having trouble believing they were the only ones. and IMHO, I don't think LE believes they're the only ones either.

 

[AbbeyR]

I'll go back and find Bessie's post with the conference catalogue, because Qualters definitely says Lauren left or lost her apartment keys at SW, along with other articles that he won't say. He says something like she left various personal effects at SW, for example her keys. {he does not say keycard}

Qualters gave the same info about the keys that I quoted in the posts above:

Bloomington Police Captain Joseph Qualters told reporters Lauren Spierer's keys were found on the railing of an apartment building near where she was last seen June 3rd...http://www.fox59.com/news/crime/wxin...,2772229.story

(This is snipped from a previous post with a quote about the press conference, since the link no longer works)

If you think there is information that the media got wrong or missed, it would be helpful to provide a quote or link, instead of suggesting that people re-listen to every single press conference. JMO

 

[Ixchel13]

Qualters gave the same info about the keys that I quoted in the posts above:

(This is snipped from a previous post with a quote about the press conference, since the link no longer works)

If you think there is information that the media got wrong or missed, it would be helpful to provide a quote or link, instead of suggesting that people re-listen to every single press conference. JMO

Abbey, Bessie posted that link so we could listen to it and get accurate info as to what Qualters actually said. But you want me to quote it for you? I am in fact suggesting that people re-listen to the tapes if they want to get the full effect of exactly what was said officially by LE, and not only that, but said in real time, and in sequence instead of reading what people pull out of the tapes, out of sequence and out of context to forward their own theories.:moo:

are you saying that the link Bessie gave us no longer works?

 

[Vidocq]

The railing, I assume.

 

[Ixchel13]

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81917
actually the link is up and running both audio and in print. The quote Abbey printed in the post above must be Fox news paraphrasing, because we know it was her key CARD that was found in the alley, right? even though, LE and reporters have both referred to it as 'keys'.


ok, click on bessie's link, go to audio #4. Lt. Parker is asked at approx 9:55 on the audio if her keys had been found. He says, "we found, or actually her friends found her keys and turned them in. But, we also found keys in her card purse in the alley." does he mean, "key card in her purse"? IMO, yes.

Still looking for another instance on the tapes when either he or Qualters says, that she left personal effects behind when she left SW with CR after the altercation, and says, "for example, her keys."

IMO, when she fled SW with CR, she left behind her jacket, fake ID and keys to her apt.

Another interesting thing he says on tape #4 when asked if JW is a person of interest (at 12:17 on tape) he answers with one word, "certainly."

One constant on all the tapes, when asked if the number of POIs remains the sames or goes down, is, no one has been eliminated although on tape #9
he says, "the circle of POIs gets bigger as we talk to each individual."

In briefing #9, this is where he gets "specific(?)" about the bar witness. It starts around 9:00 on the tape. When kept entirely in context, it is not obvious at all that he is discounting the witness or her siting at another time. It doesn't fit the only video that they admit having after she leaves SW, that's what I get out of it. I would ask anyone to listen to that excerpt and make their own decision or interpretation of what he means. Mainly because, as I listen yet again (3rd time) to the tapes, I recognize quotes that have been lifted and sometimes recognize even a surmisal of quotes that have been lifted, and these quotes are sometimes missing the definitive sentences before and after them.

In briefing #14 at approx. 19:00 on the audio, he says that while they have left all kinds of doors open, only one friend has come forward willingly, the rest of her friends had to be contacted by LE. He found this "disturbing".

Which brings me back to the ID. If DR is the willing friend who came forward, then that leaves LE having to request or even demand any of Laurens effects that may have been found from that evening, because on tape #4, he specifically states her friend{s} found her keys and turned them in. plural.In another statement, LE has said her roommate found her ID and turned it in to LE. singular.
So, out of these 3 occurrences, only one person can be said to have come forward willingly. That leaves either DR or the roommate who found her ID who came forward willingly. IMO, It had to be the fake ID they asked for, why would they need to, and why would they want to, ask for her regular ID? It would serve absolutely no purpose to the investigation. JMO

Scenario. They cordon off Lauren's room and search it. They find her jacket, keys and white powder? roommate gets scared/concerned and hands over the fake ID?

I don't think for one minute they found the ID on Lauren after she passed or anything like that.
I'm not sure what it means.

It seems tedious, but listened to in small doses, hearing the briefings straight from the source is not tedious, in fact, fascinating.