IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Ixchel13]

And of course that time (assuming you meant 4:38AM) would fit perfectly with her leaving 5N at approx 4:30AM and then more going on than the official timeline states.
But leaves open the question of how that witness got the 3:38 (or whatever it was) time in the first place. If it was based more on time leaving work, etc. then seeing a clock that hadn't accounted for DST wouldn't really explain it.

If the actions described are seen on video, just not at the time the witness said, then that also leads to question marks.

But I never really though the LE response to this witness and the statement was anything other than double talk anyway. They chose a lot of words to not really say anything definitive at all. They said it in such a way that I always felt it was deliberate to not actually answer questions about this discrepancy in the timeline or address it in the timeline.

BBM yes You are right, not so much that they're not telling the truth, they are just telling it in a fragmented way.
We always think of Lauren falling those two times as after they tried to get into ZC's apt. But when you listen to the PIs account of Lauren's and CRs journey,
she falls twice , then they sit on the steps after trying to get into ZC's apt, Lauren supposedly smacks her head hard at that time, the witness sees this, and then CR picks her up and carries her up the street. then comes the weird time discrepancy, because
we picture the story as, they emerged from the alley by the gravel lot at 2:51, witness says it's 3:38, and that won't work with the 5N scenario.
Now, if you notice LE never confirms that all this happened just in that one alley. When the media tried to pin him down as to which exact alley, Qualters says on the audio that he won't say, just that they're heading south to north.
There is another alley behind SW that ends at the curb of 10th St right across from
the aforementioned alley that goes between 10th and C and 10th and V.
We'll call the one behind SW alley #1, and the one that divides 10th and C alley #2.
Alley #3 is the one that is perpendicular to alley#2 and runs along the edge of the gravel lot.
Alley #1 had cameras because it flanked Morton Mansions, a slightly upscale apt bldg.
I think this is the alley they were originally filmed in. They could have thought they
were being followed, or would be followed. I think Lauren fell right after emerging from this alley and the timing is right, 2:51, when before we had trouble with there not being enough time to buzz ZC, etc, but there is time, because in this scenario, she's still across the street from 10th and C.
So they cross the street and sit on the steps to rest before trying to get into ZC's.
we don't really know how long they sat there, but when the PIs tell the story, they're vague about that, then they try to get in, come back out, sit down again/and/or
because Lauren smacks her head really hard. The witness asks them if she can help.
It could very well be 3:38 at this time. If Lauren was hurt and they were drunk they could have easily burned through 39 minutes.
Instead of an OD, it could be that Lauren and CR were being pursued by one group, (ZO/JW),things got out of control, she fell and smacked her head while under the influence of something she was given/bought from the other group and both rightly feel liable for her demise.
So she doesn't have to have wandered down to 10th and C at 3:38, she was carried up towards 5N by someone who doesn't look like CR at that time as per witness.

This might explain why the PIs say when they emerged from the alley, Lauren was "very much alive." and the witness says she was nonresponsive. Two different alleys.
both have cameras but she really never has to emerge from alley#2, ianyway, MOO, JMO, speculation, IMHO.
n fact, the PIs have them going up the street after trying to get into ZC's! that always bugged me!

 

[Vidocq]

[/B]

...Alley #1 had cameras because it flanked Morton Mansions, a slightly upscale apt bldg.
I think this is the alley they were originally filmed in. They could have thought they
were being followed, or would be followed. I think Lauren fell right after emerging from this alley and the timing is right, 2:51, when before we had trouble with there not being enough time to buzz ZC, etc, but there is time, because in this scenario, she's still across the street from 10th and C.
So they cross the street and sit on the steps to rest before trying to get into ZC's.
we don't really know how long they sat there, but when the PIs tell the story, they're vague about that, then they try to get in, come back out, sit down again/and/or
because Lauren smacks her head really hard. The witness asks them if she can help.
It could very well be 3:38 at this time....

...the PIs have them going up the street after trying to get into ZC's! that always bugged me!

But then, she'd be on camera after 2:51, trying to get into ZC's, right? But she's not, as far as I know. I interpret "up the street", or whatever they said, as "they then continued up the alley" (after attempting to visit ZC).

 

[Ixchel13]

also, since we found out ZC lived at 10th and V not C, when the PIs say they ducked into a bldg, iirc, they were already in the alley. This is when they were trying to get into ZC's apt. In alley#2, to the left about 25 ft in is a courtyard with 3 vestibules to get into 10th and V. must have a key. no way to "buzz" someone in. PIs said they ducked into a bldg, it could look like that on video, but it probs was them ducking into the courtyard and realizing they couldn't get in and calling ZC on CRs phone. Since they
couldn't get buzzed in and didn't have a key, they must have been calling ZC.
Lauren might have just been introduced to ZC, but the other guys knew ZC well enough to have her #, JMO.
When they couldn't get in, this is where the story goes way south. PIs have them making their way up the street, not the alley. So, if they couldn't get in to 10th and V from alley#2's courtyard, maybe they went west on 10th St., turned right on Morton, and tried to access ZC's apt from her front door instead of from the back way.
This would put them on Morton Street and the 10th and V town houses are all in a line,
each with a small private "stoop" with small wall and stairs. You would never suspect when looking at this row of town homes that you could get into them the back way
that is set up to look like any student apt. complex, even with the rows of mailboxes right inside the door, and you can walk up to the back door of any of them once inside.
At the NW edge of 10th and V, you will find alley #3 and then the gravel lot.
If alley #1 is the one they are seen emerging from, witness timeline fits.
we should post the map. Unfortunately IDK how to draw the red line pointing out the route I would be talking about.

 

[Ixchel13]

But then, she'd be on camera after 2:51, trying to get into ZC's, right? But she's not, as far as I know. I interpret "up the street", or whatever they said, as "they then continued up the alley" (after attempting to visit ZC).

when they talk about the emerging, and the sitting on the steps, they don't mention any time except her emergence time. IOW, they don't say, "she emerged at 2:51 and then at such and such a time she was sitting on the steps." only the eye witness and the 5N POIs give timelines after that. why nothing after that 2:51 emergence is on camera
is the mystery.

 

[Vidocq]

I still say "Alley #2" is where she was last seen.

"She was last seen on video at 2:51 a.m. with Corey Rossman, heading through an alley between 10th and 11th streets on their way to Rossman's apartment building at 11th and North Morton streets."

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...-make-Father-s-Day-plea-Tell-us-what-you-know

As I was re-watching the PI video, thinking about your comments, I was reminded that the PIs described Lauren being carried down some stairs, after not getting into ZC's apartment. So they must have gotten into the building at College Village. How'd they do that?

 

[Ixchel13]

I still say "Alley #2" is where she was last seen.

"She was last seen on video at 2:51 a.m. with Corey Rossman, heading through an alley between 10th and 11th streets on their way to Rossman's apartment building at 11th and North Morton streets."

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...-make-Father-s-Day-plea-Tell-us-what-you-know

As I was re-watching the PI video, thinking about your comments, I was reminded that the PIs described Lauren being carried down some stairs, after not getting into ZC's apartment. So they must have gotten into the building at College Village. How'd they do that?

was she heading through the alley when last seen, or emerging from it? with 2 courtyards to the left that open into 10th and V, she didn't have to emerge from the alley if she cut through that way as there are gates at the end of the courtyard that open onto Morton St. So she was last seen in the alley, not emerging from it. This is
an important difference, IMO. emerging from it means she continued on towards 5N,
whether being carried or not.
I wonder if they tried to get into 10th and C as well,that would explain the stairs, and also why the PIs have them backtracking, it just sounds convoluted when they describe their route if you're familiar with the layout.
I just have so much doubt about the witness thing, either her timeline is right and there's something there, or she's lying on purpose to protect someone, IMO.

 

[Vidocq]

"From there, she entered an alley at 2:48 a.m. that runs north/south between 10th & College Apartments and 10th & College Village. This alley is between College Avenue and Morton Street. Security cameras mounted to apartments in the area also show her exit the alley toward an empty lot, north of 10th & College Village at 2:51 a.m."

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/16/news.241958.sto

The above link has a great video, recorded 13 days after Lauren's disappearance, of Captain Qualters going through the official timeline point by point.

In the course of my ongoing real-world investigation, I recently spoke with someone who was living at Tenth & College at the time of the disappearance. He told me that, to the best of his recollection, the two cameras pointed at the garage elevator were not there three years ago. He said there were cameras on the floors, but he wasn't sure how helpful they would have been. I take this as support for my theory that Lauren was taken up the garage elevator, died, and then was taken back down the same way.

 

[Mahouston69]

I still say "Alley #2" is where she was last seen.

"She was last seen on video at 2:51 a.m. with Corey Rossman, heading through an alley between 10th and 11th streets on their way to Rossman's apartment building at 11th and North Morton streets."

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...-make-Father-s-Day-plea-Tell-us-what-you-know

As I was re-watching the PI video, thinking about your comments, I was reminded that the PIs described Lauren being carried down some stairs, after not getting into ZC's apartment. So they must have gotten into the building at College Village. How'd they do that?

 

[Ixchel13]

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love these pics! They show the pool courtyard off alley#2. just want to point out that the garaged cars and the alley stairway is not in alley#2 but directly off alley#2, inside the courtyard, that is not alley#2 where the cars are garaged, IOW. So, yeah, good find
Ma Houston, she could have been very easily taken up or down that courtyard stairway
with cameras being disabled, the management has said they repaired the cameras on a 24/7 basis, and I took that to mean they were often jimmied with.
very good post MA thanks
p.s., as you can see in photo #1, to the right the wall of the alley is smooth and has no entrance points whatsoever. It is the left side of the alley, the 10th and V side, that
has all the outside accessibility from alley#2 and several ways to choose from to get inside but every way must have a key. No way to just buzz someone in. When I went snooping around that pool courtyard one day, the door had been jimmied and an alarm was buzzing and buzzing, but no one came to look. I went right in the jimmied door to have a look see before I realized that they might think I did it and skeedaddled. so the doors are easily compromised, but, IMO, if this is where she went in, someone had a key, or, CR and LS felt confident that someone would let them in.

 

[Ixchel13]

View attachment 57155View attachment 57156

Vidocq,yes you are most likely right about which alley, but just can't help but notice the cobbled, convoluted and misleading way the timeline is described, knowing the area well, I just know they are leaving things out or perhaps filling in gaps withwhat they think must have happened. I don't believe they just off-handedly replaced the word "alley" with
"street", or described her as "very much alive" in a video when she was actually unconscious. IMO, they have evidence of both states, and they IMO also know she
went up the alley, and then later, was carried up the street. JMO, only MOO, and IMHO.
The "very much alive" remark came from the PIs describing her when she was
seen in the alley with CR. The non-responsive behavior, and the violent head smack to the cement, come from an eyewitness account, not video. And the witness said it wasn't CR, sooooooo.....

 

[Ixchel13]

"From there, she entered an alley at 2:48 a.m. that runs north/south between 10th & College Apartments and 10th & College Village. This alley is between College Avenue and Morton Street. Security cameras mounted to apartments in the area also show her exit the alley toward an empty lot, north of 10th & College Village at 2:51 a.m."

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/16/news.241958.sto

The above link has a great video, recorded 13 days after Lauren's disappearance, of Captain Qualters going through the official timeline point by point.

In the course of my ongoing real-world investigation, I recently spoke with someone who was living at Tenth & College at the time of the disappearance. He told me that, to the best of his recollection, the two cameras pointed at the garage elevator were not there three years ago. He said there were cameras on the floors, but he wasn't sure how helpful they would have been. I take this as support for my theory that Lauren was taken up the garage elevator, died, and then was taken back down the same way.

garage elevator has always had cameras, I used the elevator many times. But 10th and C, IMO, is where Lauren was seriously hurt, like Miranda Richardson, I think it was a slowly fatal head injury, not an OD, that killed Lauren and I don't believe she was sexually assaulted or gang raped. But if she was being pursued , tracked, or hounded
until she finally struck her head, then those people are responsible if any of them for asny reason prevented her from entering, or made her feel unsafe staying at, her apartment where she returned to just like anyone who had been out partying does, when the evening is coming to an end. The idea that she was "just stopping by" her apt
at that hour and in her condition is ludicrous and somehow IMO was started by people trying to make Lauren appear somehow to blame for leaving with CR when she may have felt she had no other choice. There is absolutely no supporting evidence that Lauren was just stopping by and did not intend to stay. If people believed that, however, it would clear anyone who might have said or done something to make her flee the safety of her own apt. And no, I am not accusing any certain person, IMO, though, such a person or persons does exists, again, JMO.
also want to add, have a sneaking suspicion that both Lauren and CR may have been rufied at Kilroys on purpose . And for whatever reasons, not the least to save his own arse, CR is choosing to remain blank about anything he possibly recalls.

 

[Ros]

garage elevator has always had cameras, I used the elevator many times. But 10th and C, IMO, is where Lauren was seriously hurt, like Miranda Richardson, I think it was a slowly fatal head injury, not an OD, that killed Lauren and I don't believe she was sexually assaulted or gang raped. But if she was being pursued , tracked, or hounded
until she finally struck her head, then those people are responsible if any of them for asny reason prevented her from entering, or made her feel unsafe staying at, her apartment where she returned to just like anyone who had been out partying does, when the evening is coming to an end. The idea that she was "just stopping by" her apt
at that hour and in her condition is ludicrous and somehow IMO was started by people trying to make Lauren appear somehow to blame for leaving with CR when she may have felt she had no other choice. There is absolutely no supporting evidence that Lauren was just stopping by and did not intend to stay. If people believed that, however, it would clear anyone who might have said or done something to make her flee the safety of her own apt. And no, I am not accusing any certain person, IMO, though, such a person or persons does exists, again, JMO.
also want to add, have a sneaking suspicion that both Lauren and CR may have been rufied at Kilroys on purpose . And for whatever reasons, not the least to save his own arse, CR is choosing to remain blank about anything he possibly recalls.

Do you mean Natasha Richardson?

Also, why do you think that she is missing? If all that happened was a head injury, why did no one call 911?

 

[Ixchel13]

Do you mean Natasha Richardson?

Also, why do you think that she is missing? If all that happened was a head injury, why did no one call 911?

oops, yes, Natasha, thanks.

yes, it could have been the head injury, but since they were all imbibing alcohol and drugs, they assumed it was an OD.

IMO, it doesn't have to be, and most likely wasn't, rape.

 

[akh]

If we assume 5N are guilty then they could've believed it was an OD they were responsible for versus a heads injury certainly, or they could've worried they'd be blamed for the injuries and not believed that she'd hit her head in a fall.

Plus, if we're going to assume 5N is guilty for the basis of a hypothesis then we can also assume the timeframe as we know it could be extremely different than reality which means she could've still been alive much later than assumed. If she didn't leave the apartment at 4:30AM who is to say she didn't meet her demise much later than morning? They could've still been partying at 6AM for example. They could've slept and found her at 9AM the next morning.

Of course that leaves some hurdles to be explained such as if there were cadaver dogs did they or did they not hit on anything? Plus what about other forensic evidence. And there is always going to be the question of why not call 9-11 versus actually try and make a body disappear. Let alone the complications you'd think daylight would bring to this.

Really, there is so little actually known in the public that everything is pretty much wide open as possibilities.

 

[Mahouston69]

That's why it's so difficult for me to assume 5N is guilty. There's too many involved and present at 5N, to keep such a consistent tight lid on this. JR willingly says he is last to see her because if he didn't, he can't know 100% that his two visitors, or MB, and CR won't cave under police or the press and say he did. He quietly independently had to have taken her somewhere, himself without any of them knowing he left somehow, maybe hid her nearby 5N where she'd never be found or it was someone outside 5N. One weird question...Was the pool at tenth and college there in June 2011?

 

[Ros]

That's why it's so difficult for me to assume 5N is guilty. There's too many involved and present at 5N, to keep such a consistent tight lid on this. JR willingly says he is last to see her because if he didn't, he can't know 100% that his two visitors, or MB, and CR won't cave under police or the press and say he did. He quietly independently had to have taken her somewhere, himself without any of them knowing he left somehow, maybe hid her nearby 5N where she'd never be found or it was someone outside 5N. One weird question...Was the pool at tenth and college there in June 2011?

Don't know about the pool, but was the pond between N Walnut and N College searched?

 

[Mahouston69]

Another good question

 

[Ixchel13]

because of the ambiguity of the witness timeline, and because it was a hard headsmack--JR admits he asked her what happened. all of his words could be half-true:
he saw her round a corner=someone rounded the corner w. her
she called someone=he called someone
sobriety test=is she fading fast?
etc
and yes, it didn't have to be 4:30 and probably wasn't

 

[imkeylime]

oops, yes, Natasha, thanks.

yes, it could have been the head injury, but since they were all imbibing alcohol and drugs, they assumed it was an OD.

IMO, it doesn't have to be, and most likely wasn't, rape.

The same could be said for a long QT attack ... they could have mistaken that for an OD. And that (a long QT attack) could have been precipitated by ingesting klonopin followed by alcohol (and/or coke). I think a head injury might have taken a bit longer to result in death, but I could be wrong. I suppose it would depend on the severity? JMO.

 

[Ixchel13]

The same could be said for a long QT attack ... they could have mistaken that for an OD. And that (a long QT attack) could have been precipitated by ingesting klonopin followed by alcohol (and/or coke). I think a head injury might have taken a bit longer to result in death, but I could be wrong. I suppose it would depend on the severity? JMO.

OTE=imkeylime;10885118]The same could be said for a long QT attack ... they could have mistaken that for an OD. And that (a long QT attack) could have been precipitated by ingesting klonopin followed by alcohol (and/or coke). I think a head injury might have taken a bit longer to result in death, but I could be wrong. I suppose it would depend on the severity? JMO.[/QUOTE]

again, half-truths:

JR asked her to stay but she didn't=she did stay and was found deceased later.

I think in Natasha R's case, she laid down for a nap, and was found unconscious
and died at hospital?

there have been numerous cases where people have had head injuries, functioned,
then died in their sleep from brain swelling, iirc.

This could have happened at another location if someone picked her up. If so, that person would be the last with her, and would know they would be in trouble; but also would want to include the last to see her in that trouble, to keep them quiet as well.
Anyone along the way, CR, MB, for example, may have shared something with her
and would also feel like they would get in trouble.
The individuals who may have been following her and may have caused her to
smack her head may also feel like they are responsible (possibly the MOST responsible)
and so it goes.
IMO, this witness was not yards away and heard the headsmack. IMO, she was probably right there with them. Calling someone a witness does not necessarily mean they were an unknown (to the POIs) passerby. She was "visiting a boy" as the PIs put it, almost coyly (that irritated me), read, drug deal not sexual encounter. IMO, she was a slightly older bartender stopping by to score from younger clients. Nothing to say she wasn't scoring from one of our POIs rumored to be a drug dealer on SM. IMO, speculation, JMO, and MOO.