IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[CoolJ]

Agreed. Too bad (?) there's absolutely no evidence that anything of the kind happened.

The problem with that whole scenario -- and most people's slavish adherence to it -- is that, while it's consistent with what we know (Lauren being intoxicated, other people being around her and aware of her intoxication, the same people not seeming to be entirely forthcoming with police later on), there's no direct evidence of it. No body. Nothing of Lauren's found in the possession of someone who shouldn't have it. No phantom cell phone pings placing Lauren or anyone else in an out-of-the-way location. No telltale internet searches for "reviving someone after an overdose" or "how to dispose of a body." No blood, vomit, or other body fluids indicating that Lauren had an adverse, possibly fatal reaction to anything she was taking. Zilch.

BBM

There is your evidence...

 

[TB Rhine]

BBM?

What's the rationale for discounting the bar manager's report? Just the fact that it doesn't fit the "canonical" story of Rossman, et al being the only ones with Lauren that night? It seems like this could be confirmation there's at least ONE other player in the mix who, as far as know, has not been identified by law enforcement.

Was Lauren known to the bar manager? Is it possible he misidentified HER, rather than her companion?

 

[Ixchel13]

Agreed. Too bad (?) there's absolutely no evidence that anything of the kind happened.

The problem with that whole scenario -- and most people's slavish adherence to it -- is that, while it's consistent with what we know (Lauren being intoxicated, other people being around her and aware of her intoxication, the same people not seeming to be entirely forthcoming with police later on), there's no direct evidence of it. No body. Nothing of Lauren's found in the possession of someone who shouldn't have it. No phantom cell phone pings placing Lauren or anyone else in an out-of-the-way location. No telltale internet searches for "reviving someone after an overdose" or "how to dispose of a body." No blood, vomit, or other body fluids indicating that Lauren had an adverse, possibly fatal reaction to anything she was taking. Zilch.

Bolded By Me BBM and IBM Italics By Me
respectfully, you don't know what evidence they have. Very wishful thinking on the POIs' part if they think that there is zilch. IMO, they have the kind of $$$ that can impede an investigation, slow it way down, buy lots of time and little cooperation.
Right when they get super cocky, and think there's zilch, that's when the hammer will fall, or like the anvil that falls unawares on the Wily Coyote.

 

[Ixchel13]

The point, I think, is that it's not necessarily anyone's "fault." There's a tendency to talk about Lauren (and others like her) as though they were frail, defenseless little creatures with no agency of their own or ability to make their own choices (and, thus, no responsibility for the consequences of those choices), whom everyone else is therefore somehow responsible for looking after and taking care of. Is everyone in Bloomington -- nay, the world -- expected to play guardian angel to the drunken little blonde waifs of the world?

Something tragic obviously befell Lauren, and that's not her fault. But nor is it the fault of every man, woman, or child who crossed paths with Lauren that night and failed in their perceived "duty" to play white knight and make sure she got home safe and sound and tucked into bed okay.

just asking--have you read the info on the case? It's not just that they admit to being the last to see (and not help) Lauren, their stories don't match. Law enforcement who have interviewed them think they're lying! The second and third tiers of friends who were present at parties throughout the night have recollections that when put side by side with theirs, don't match. Adding up the sum of all people interviewed comes up
to 2+2=5. IOW , LE doesn't believe they're telling the truth, iirc.
The odds are against them. Something is rotten in Denmark. If it looks like a duck, etc. ykwim? JMO, MOO, MHO,


Lauren is well liked by the people of Bloomington, and yes, we wish she had a guarding angel that night. Because she deserved one. We got to know her by the many people who came forward to say what a nice and beautiful person she was inside, how many people she helped and what a good and loyal friend she was.
I don't find it strange at all that not ONE story came out to say what a nice person any of these POIs were. Kind, helpful, loyal--nope. Just their moms defending them.
These are the kinds of things the people of Bloomington noticed. Yes, we are loyal to Lauren long after her passing and will stay that way til she is vindicated, which will happen, trust me.

 

[Ixchel13]

BBM

There is your evidence...

bumping

 

[Ixchel13]

BBM?

What's the rationale for discounting the bar manager's report? Just the fact that it doesn't fit the "canonical" story of Rossman, et al being the only ones with Lauren that night? It seems like this could be confirmation there's at least ONE other player in the mix who, as far as know, has not been identified by law enforcement.

Was Lauren known to the bar manager? Is it possible he misidentified HER, rather than her companion?

BBM who says everyone discounts the bartender? I don't. Plenty of ways she could be telling the truth and still include POIs. Not all POIs lived at 5N, and not all of the 5N POIs have to be included. Not all of their storyline has to be true for some of it to be true. and so on and so forth.

 

[Ixchel13]

That's a lot of initials.

Wasn't MB CR's RM (as in roommate)? Or neighbor, or something? That's a lot less of a commitment than walking Lauren to a separate building. Besides, I recall reading that someone (possibly MB?) tried to persuade Lauren to stay the night but she refused. Should he have kept her there by force?

Rossman tried to escort her home. At least one other guy tried to do so, but was thwarted by Rossman. (And Lauren presumably could have gone with that guy as well, if she so chose, but decided to stay with Rossman). At least one other person after THAT offered to let her spend the night. Where does everyone else's responsibility end and Lauren's begin?

BBM. You must be referring to the person who assaulted CR, knocking him to the ground. Even though he didn't offer, do you think it would have been good for her to go with three or four violent thugs? One, if not all four, are still POIs. Our LE has not released any of the ten POIs. zilch POIs have been released. In time, perhaps all of the POIs responsibilities will be revealed. IDK if you're familiar with the forum PT, you might be happy to know that many of your opinions are in fact supported there, to be fair.

 

[Ixchel13]

It may not be anyone's responsibility to play guardian angel. But if a "drunken blonde little waif" dies whether accidentally or otherwise it is everyone's responsibility to contact the appropriate authorities and not hide her body. JMO

CJ, just wanted to add to your very true post. It's about dealing drugs, and who's responsible when someone ODs. Obviously, people want drugs and no one forces them to buy them. But, whether a drug dealer makes the connection between selling the drug and being responsible for what happens, they are. It is their fault if someone ODs on their product. If a restaurant serves tainted food and someone dies from food poisoning, it is their fault. They can't say, "well, the person really likes food, no one forced them to eat it." If they take the tainted food to go, and share it with others and they die, it is still the fault of the person who sold it to them.
These young adults should take that in consideration before they play the big shot drug dealers. Do they ever wonder if someone could OD? They must know it is possible, especially when they are at a party and see someone consuming the drugs they sold to that person, and also mixing it with alcohol. To me, the only reason one of these brats wouldn't call an ambulance is because they knew they were the dealer,
and they knew LOTS of other people knew it too. If this is what happened, to LE, they killed someone by dealing drugs and then hid a body. This is not a kids will be kids
or a what else could they have done type of situation, but a crime to be solved. IOW, my biggest question is, is society that jaded to pardon a drug dealer who dealt a lethal dose because they're young, have a gilded future ahead of them and there was nothing else to be done other than dispose of a friends body and carry on? I'm thinking there
are still enough people out there who disagree.

 

[TB Rhine]

If a restaurant serves tainted food and someone dies from food poisoning, it is their fault.

Is this really the same as overdosing? The person in that example dies from eating contaminated food, not simply from eating too much ordinary food.

Someone who sells drugs is considered to have committed the crime of selling drugs. That crime carries a certain penalty, according to the law. If the person they sell to takes all the drugs at once (or combines them with other substances, producing a net effect that is fatal), how is the seller responsible for that, legally or morally speaking? If I cut someone off in traffic, I may be guilty of reckless driving; but if the guy I cut off goes home and beats his wife, am I responsible for that crime as well?

 

[TB Rhine]

Double post.

 

[Mahouston69]

The reason this civil case did not go forward is simply because the Sperier's could not provide the court with the method or even proof of Lauren's death, therefore direct or even indirect causation is impossible to prove and so is culpability.

 

[Ixchel13]

Is this really the same as overdosing? The person in that example dies from eating contaminated food, not simply from eating too much ordinary food.

Someone who sells drugs is considered to have committed the crime of selling drugs. That crime carries a certain penalty, according to the law. If the person they sell to takes all the drugs at once (or combines them with other substances, producing a net effect that is fatal), how is the seller responsible for that, legally or morally speaking? If I cut someone off in traffic, I may be guilty of reckless driving; but if the guy I cut off goes home and beats his wife, am I responsible for that crime as well?

if you cut someone off and then they hit another car and both cars crash and one of the drivers die, if there are witnesses and they got your license plate, oh yeah, it's your fault. Beating your wife is an entirely, off topic crime that has nothing to do with the accident. The tainted food analogy is correct. One summer here in Bloomington, 3 people died from a batch of China White heroin that was too strong. It was made to snort, and people injected it, people with high tolerances. One was a father and son,
they died 24 hours apart. Another example is this idiot who was selling "xanax mini
marshmallows". He said he had no idea how strong each one was, because even the dealer didn't know, because it was a new product.
It's not about tainted food and regular food, or if it is, tainted food=cocaine;
regular food =tylenol. Regular food=adderall prescribed for actual ADHD; tainted food=buying adderall from a dealer, snorting it and chasing it with a vodka lemon drop.
As far as a dealer dispensing drugs and everything's cool, that only works until someone ODs, and then yes, LE is going to charge them.. how many dealers do you think advise their clients not to mix the drugs they are selling with alcohol, or give them a rundown of the side effects? I'm going to guess very few. They want the money, the prestige of being the big dealer man/woman. Another analogy that goes with your's is, they sell someone a loaded gun with a hair trigger but w/o a safety, do they ever wonder if that person might get impaired and shoot themselves?
This isn't a TV show or a hypothetical situation, but something that actually happened to someone, Lauren Elizabeth Spierer, and she deserves justice.

 

[CoolJ]

CJ, just wanted to add to your very true post. It's about dealing drugs, and who's responsible when someone ODs. Obviously, people want drugs and no one forces them to buy them. But, whether a drug dealer makes the connection between selling the drug and being responsible for what happens, they are. It is their fault if someone ODs on their product. If a restaurant serves tainted food and someone dies from food poisoning, it is their fault. They can't say, "well, the person really likes food, no one forced them to eat it." If they take the tainted food to go, and share it with others and they die, it is still the fault of the person who sold it to them.
These young adults should take that in consideration before they play the big shot drug dealers. Do they ever wonder if someone could OD? They must know it is possible, especially when they are at a party and see someone consuming the drugs they sold to that person, and also mixing it with alcohol. To me, the only reason one of these brats wouldn't call an ambulance is because they knew they were the dealer,
and they knew LOTS of other people knew it too. If this is what happened, to LE, they killed someone by dealing drugs and then hid a body. This is not a kids will be kids
or a what else could they have done type of situation, but a crime to be solved. IOW, my biggest question is, is society that jaded to pardon a drug dealer who dealt a lethal dose because they're young, have a gilded future ahead of them and there was nothing else to be done other than dispose of a friends body and carry on? I'm thinking there
are still enough people out there who disagree.

Ixchel13, I pretty much agree with you. But how often do you hear of someone dying of an overdose? Quite often, right? How often do you hear of a drug dealer being charged because one of his customers died of an OD? Not so often, from what I have observed. LE just don't seem to go down that rabbit hole ever. Now, if a certain supply of drug seems to be tainted and is killing people left and right, yes LE will likely get involved and see where that supply is coming from.

So how does all of this relate to POI's? Not so good for them IMO. If all of this mess happened because they were trying to cover up an OD:
1) I don't think they would have hidden a body simply to cover up an OD alone.
2) if that is all it was I think someone would have spoken up by now.

IMO, something far more nefarious than an OD happened to LS that night, otherwise we wouldn't even be here talking about this. Who is responsible is anybody's guess, but IMO the responsible parties have to be within that community of friends/acquaintances.

 

[AbbeyR]

First of all, no one really has come out and said exactly what was the cause of the conflict between CR and the guy who punched him. Initially, it was said that it had nothing to do with Lauren. Bob Spierer said it outright. The other thing is that CR was taking Lauren home. They went from the bar to Lauren's apartment building and that's where they were standing when the situation occurred. So what the heck with this taking Lauren home business? She was home.

That's not true, Lauren's dad said she wasn't involved in the altercation. There are witnesses who have described what happened, and had their accounts published in several news sources, including the detailed report from the private investigators:

In fact, the only person who is said to have stepped in to suggest that Spierer be taken home came not from her circle of fellow classmates and close friends, some of whom she’d known since childhood summers, but a chance passerby....who watched her unravel and who tangled with Corey Rossman, Spierer’s companion, over her well-being.When Rossman, who would end up carrying Spierer through the streets of Bloomington, Ind., cursed him out for interfering, Zach Oakes punched Rossman in the face....

The two walked to Smallwood. They were in her fifth-floor hallway when they were confronted by four male students who got off the elevator and saw that Spierer appeared unsteady.“Are you OK?” one of the guys recalled asking her.

“She’s OK, I got it,” Rossman is said to have replied.

“Hey dude, you’d better take her to her room,” the guy shot back.

Rossman started cursing, and Zach Oakes, the burliest of the bunch, punched him in the chin, knocking him to the tile floor.

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

The article and video go on to describe how Lauren fell on the ground coming out of the elevator, and Corey picked her up and 'helped' her out the building, then carried, pushed and dragged her back to his place. On the way, they ran into the other (bar manager witness), who saw Lauren fall and hit her head, and corey carrying her over his shoulder. She asked if she was okay, and got a similar response from Corey, who said she was okay and he had things under control.

So what should one do with the many, many girls being dragged, helped, supported to where ever because they are so intoxicated they cannot walk or talk straight at whatever time 1-4AM? just hang around the bar scene after last call and you'll see all of them. It's not considered a big deal at all What do you do, call the cops on all of them? The ones walking alone, yes, one should, as it 's dangerous but those being helped by someone, you don't. But you just hope that the one helping will get the person home safely In CR's case, he wanted to go home after getting hit. Lauren was already home, right in her building . There is no menton of CR abducting her, forcing her, and it's all on tape. And he says he was in bad enough shape he has no memory, but again, most of this is on tape and no charges filed for that. Apparently she showed enough signs of wanting to come along even as she could barely walk.

What should we do? I don't know, look out for our friends? Speak up, call a friend, security or the police if you see a guy literally dragging a semi-conscious girl home who is described as being 'non-responsive' and incoherent? Call an ambulance if you think someone is at risk of overdosing?

From what the witnesses have described after Corey left the bar with Lauren, I see no indication at all that she wanted to go along with him, or that she was conscious enough to make any decision. There are indications that she was not okay. We don't know what she thought, or what was going on because she is not here to tell us, but that in itself tells us something about how vulnerable of a position she was in.

 

[AbbeyR]

Is this really the same as overdosing? The person in that example dies from eating contaminated food, not simply from eating too much ordinary food.

Someone who sells drugs is considered to have committed the crime of selling drugs. That crime carries a certain penalty, according to the law. If the person they sell to takes all the drugs at once (or combines them with other substances, producing a net effect that is fatal), how is the seller responsible for that, legally or morally speaking? If I cut someone off in traffic, I may be guilty of reckless driving; but if the guy I cut off goes home and beats his wife, am I responsible for that crime as well?

In Indiana, a person who supplied drugs to a person who overdosed can be charged with homicide.

That said, I don't see anyone's 'slavish adherence' (to quote your other post) to the overdose theory - that was just the most pervasive rumor after she disappeared. To me, it is important mostly because it says something about the condition she was in in the hours she was last seen. There are many other possible motives though that could involve the POI or a stranger, including the most obvious one - sexual assault.

 

[CoolJ]

In Indiana, a person who supplied drugs to a person who overdosed can be charged with homicide.

That said, I don't see anyone's 'slavish adherence' (to quote your other post) to the overdose theory - that was just the most pervasive rumor after she disappeared. To me, it is important mostly because it says something about the condition she was in in the hours she was last seen. There are many other possible motives though that could involve the POI or a stranger, including the most obvious one - sexual assault.

BBM
Classic Occams Razor. Where most of these cases start and end.

 

[akh]

The thing with Occam's Razor in this case is it can apply to several scenarios depending on which POI you want to start with. But I agree in principle, the more layers that can be scaled back, the fewer people that need to be involved, the more complications that can be removed from a theory, then the more likely it is to be the answer.

 

[CoolJ]

The thing with Occam's Razor in this case is it can apply to several scenarios depending on which POI you want to start with. But I agree in principle, the more layers that can be scaled back, the fewer people that need to be involved, the more complications that can be removed from a theory, then the more likely it is to be the answer.

I agree. I said nothing of who specifically I think is responsible, because I just do not know. But the idea that it was a random perp is extremely unlikely in my mind. Although still possible.
I think the OD theory is one that may have been championed by those involved, as a way to take spotlight away from what really went down.

 

[Ros]

Ixchel13, I pretty much agree with you. But how often do you hear of someone dying of an overdose? Quite often. How often do you hear of a drug dealer being charged because one of his customers died of an OD? Not so often, from what I have observed. LE just don't seem to go down that rabbit hole ever. Now, if a certain supply of drug seems to be tainted and is killing people left and right, yes LE will likely get involved and see where that supply is coming from.

So how does all of this relate to POI's? Not so good for them IMO. If all of this mess happened because they were trying to cover up an OD:
1) I don't think they would have hidden a body simply to cover up an OD alone.
2) if that is all it was I think someone would have spoken up by now.

IMO, something far more nefarious than an OD happened to LS that night, otherwise we wouldn't even be here talking about this. Who is responsible is anybody's guess, but IMO the responsible parties have to be within that community of friends/acquaintances.

Actually someone once told me about a case in which someone was serving a long sentence for selling heroin that caused an overdose. Such cases do happen, just not often.

 

[TB Rhine]

I see no indication at all that she wanted to go along with him, or that she was conscious enough to make any decision.

We also have another eye witness, however, saying that Lauren and CR arrived at his place, CR went to bed, and Lauren then left under her own power, after trying to convince the witness to go out partying with her. So if we presume CR is guilty it seems like this other person must have been involved to some extent.

Occam's Razor is often misunderstood and misquoted. For one thing, William of Occam never said the most simple explanation was more likely to be correct, but rather that it was easier to evaluate/analyze. And he was specifically referring to the interpretation of scripture (being a theologian), not the interpretation of evidence in a criminal investigation.