IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[AbbeyR]

you might let Lauren leave in bad condition w. no shoes or phone if you knew that someone (JW?) was coming to get her, would be intercepting her at the corner,

If they knew that someone was coming to meet her, why wouldn't they have included this information in the stories they told friends, private investigators, etc.? They tried, indirectly, to cast suspicion on JW. If they had anything at all to support this, I have no doubt they would have used it.

 

[AbbeyR]

Great point - If a body were to be found at this point, does anyone have any have any scientific knowledge of what information would still be available to LE/Medical Examiners that would put the POIs under pressure?

Other things that might implicate the person(s) responsible would be indications that their car was on the road/ in that area, cell phone pings, something the body was wrapped in, knowledge of the area, etc.

 

[newmember]

I don't think any of them considered the area they lived in to be some war zone or concrete jungle. I don't think they would've thought any more of LS walking back to her apartment late at night in Bloomington, IN than if she'd been going to a next door apartment or down the hall.
They lived there in those surroundings. Worked/school/played/partied in those surroundings. While we can talk about statistics, and the dark underbelly of society, it's still Bloomington, IN we're talking about. Not some bad part of Chicago, IL.. And an area of town that they'd more or less consider their backyard. Therefore, I think it's perfectly reasonable if she insisted on walking back to her apartment and refused an offer to stay, nobody would have thought any more about it than if she was walking down the hallway. As for the lack of shoes, she apparently arrived without shoes and it was summer/late spring. Not really all that unusual. Especially after a night of drinking.

There seems to be this notion that she was going out alone into some dark and foreboding decrepit city like on some horror movie where she didn't know anyone and was miles from her home, lost, and not on familiar turf with barely an idea of how to get home. And walking on some briar lined, rock and dirt path.

It's Bloomington. And it's their part of the town. These college kids are all extremely comfortable in those surroundings whether they should be or not. It's a very small town/college town vibe. And they are young and think they are invincible. Also, guys and girls and their relationships have changed over the years. While a guy might be protective of his GF in that situation, I don't think it's odd a young guy would treat LS much different than any of his other friends that decided they wanted to walk home in this situation.

So, for me, thinking the story falls apart because it's too heartless or not the way friends would act is really naive. I think it's exactly the way college kids would act in this type of circumstance. Granted it might be different in a large city or a place where everyone lives in fear and triple locks their doors and has bars on the windows and don't venture out to socialize in the immediate area. But that is not the case for most of the IU student body on or off campus.

This is incredibly well said.

I agree with the male/female relationship dynamic comment. IMO, a guy would make more of an effort to make sure a girl friend got home safe than a male friend BUT if the female friend insisted on leaving, I agree this is the equivalent of walking down the hall. IMO, in today's society, young guys are taught to be incredibly passive in some ways with young girls - anything and everything can be interpreted as creepy, aggressive etc. IF LS did walk home, it may be because she was insistent and JR just threw his hands up rather than "forcing" a drunk/drugged girl to sleep at his apt. It wasn't the right way to handle the situation, but that doesn't necessarily imply a nefarious motive.

A slight tangent, but this reminded me of how, IMO, it was accepted Hannah Wilson's friends "did the right thing" by putting her in a cab. I'm not referring to one specific quote/article, just the vibe I got from reading. It was confirmed they were planning on putting her in an Uber but then a cab came. Uber has had MULTIPLE sexual assault accusations. While cab drivers are better screened, there is something creepy about putting your drunk friend alone in a cab with a essentially a stranger. Even if the cab driver is perfectly decent, you aren't handing your friend off to another friend - the cab driver won't walk her to the door, be sympathetic if she vomits in the car etc.

IMO, the scenario of LS walking home is 100x safer and logical- I'm not referring to statistics but JRs logic v. Hannah's friends. My point is when you consider both courses of action to get a drunk friend home, while neither was responsible, I understand JRs logic in the moment more than Hannah's group of friends. It's actually funny (not haha funny, obviously) but from personal experience, I can think of multiple times I've walked home alone a few blocks but can't recall drunkenly cabbing alone EVER, in my college town or a city.

I'm not expecting Hannah's friends to anticipate murder or holding them responsible, but IMO its another example of how college kids don't prioritize safety. Unlike Hannah's case, people are so desperate for closure, its easy to tangent the idea of JR letting LS walking home alone as "crazy" but I agree it isn't necessarily.

 

[akh]

For me it falls apart because there are multiple witnesses and video surveillance that indicate that Lauren couldn't walk on her own after leaving Kilroy's. The POI at 5 N gave conflicting and misleading stories, if not flat out lies, to try to cover this up. For example, CR's lawyer first gave statements that indicated that Lauren was helping Corey home, which was shown to be false when reports of the video surveillance surfaced that showed Corey literally dragging and carrying Lauren back to his place. Then we have early reports that MB claimed Lauren left wanting to party, which he reportedly later changed when in an interview with private investigators, he revealed that they were worried about her condition and trying to find a way to get her home. Why would they need to find her a ride if she could walk?

JR also appears to have lied in early stories about Lauren making phone calls from his place. In that same interview with Private investigators, MB claimed that JR made those calls. The fact that there are multiple examples of the the POI giving misleading statements to friends, via lawyers, etc. of Lauren's condition to make it seem like she was in a better state than she was is telling, IMO, and casts serious doubt on JR's story that she was able to walk out of his apartment without stumbling. As does the fact that he appears to have changed the details of that part of the story as well (she turned the corner towards home/ She walked towards the corner/ she was intercepted walking to the corner... and so on).

You have taken all of the noise surrounding the case based on rumors, speculation, 2nd and 3rd hand reports, and allegations and unobjectively wrapped those up into a narrative to fit a confirmation bias. Yet, most, if not everything you just said is not based on hearing directly from the PsOI, the witnesses, or anything else.

Until and if we ever hear and see statements from actual police reports about what was said in moment one to law enforcement and later to PI's then all of this talk of changing stories is just speculation (let alone hear from the PsOI themselves in their own words at any point). Verified information about what the videos show is sketchy at best. Witness report(s?) about her condition and just how out of it or "alive and well" she was is also open to speculation and interpretation. Who has actually even seen all the videos or any of the videos? The information in the parent's civil suit is simply their allegations. In some cases it's based on statements which would be crazy to fabricate, but in others it's simply what they alleged their lawsuit would 'prove' going forward. Many times things of that nature don't really have any 'proof' but are simply in the end things that are what they think must've happened when trying to draw a line from point A to point Z. So, it's also just a source of noise to throw in the pot and mix with what few things we in the public do know.

I know you have your mind made up about what happened. And that is OK. That is your right to your opinion. But I think it's fair to point out that things aren't nearly as clear and cut and dried as your summary would make them seem. And I think that needs to be pointed out for the forum record or else speculation morphs into known facts. And when it comes to actual facts in the public domain with this case, they are few and far between...

 

[AbbeyR]

I know you have your mind made up about what happened. And that is OK. That is your right to your opinion. But I think it's fair to point out that things aren't nearly as clear and cut and dried as your summary would make them seem. And I think that needs to be pointed out for the forum record or else speculation morphs into known facts. And when it comes to actual facts in the public domain with this case, they are few and far between...

I haven't made up my mind at all, actually. I've never committed to a single theory of what happened to Lauren. Like everyone else, I have no idea! I've considered every possibility that has been put out here, and spent a lot of time thinking about possibilities that have lead nowhere. But I always come back to the evidence in this case. There may not be a lot of it, but we have reports from witnesses that are totally consistent with each other, and we have the information released by lawyers and by private investigators -- both based on interviews with the POI. As you note, that's as close to the POI as we are going to get. Those leave me with questions about why the POI did not fully cooperate with the investigation and why their stories don't seem to add up. Even if Lauren somehow did leave JR's apartment, I'd like to know why the POI can't tell a straight story.

There are other possibilities that we can consider that are entirely hypothetical situations, and that's fine. But there isn't a shred of evidence pointing anywhere. JMO

 

[Ixchel13]

If they knew that someone was coming to meet her, why wouldn't they have included this information in the stories they told friends, private investigators, etc.? They tried, indirectly, to cast suspicion on JW. If they had anything at all to support this, I have no doubt they would have used it.

BBM. IMO, this alledged incident, the rounding of the corner, the interception, could have been that supposed 3:38 sighting by the lone eyewitness that saw Lauren smack her head.

The only timing really verified would be those phone calls. Everything else relies on POIs and hearsay; or
other witnesses we don't know about.

Besides those phone calls, there was plenty of time
unaccounted for until DBs tweet about corned beef
supposedly places one of them in a public place at 10:30 am IIRC the next morning.

At the very least,They were all involved in something, and it killed their friend. They didn't help her when she needed them after they encouraged her to get inebriated.

You're all right about the short distance. Every time I drive that way I see it's such a short distance, such a
small walk, if she could walk, just 2 minutes really.

 

[Ixchel13]

This is incredibly well said.

I agree with the male/female relationship dynamic comment. IMO, a guy would make more of an effort to make sure a girl friend got home safe than a male friend BUT if the female friend insisted on leaving, I agree this is the equivalent of walking down the hall. IMO, in today's society, young guys are taught to be incredibly passive in some ways with young girls - anything and everything can be interpreted as creepy, aggressive etc. IF LS did walk home, it may be because she was insistent and JR just threw his hands up rather than "forcing" a drunk/drugged girl to sleep at his apt. It wasn't the right way to handle the situation, but that doesn't necessarily imply a nefarious motive.

A slight tangent, but this reminded me of how, IMO, it was accepted Hannah Wilson's friends "did the right thing" by putting her in a cab. I'm not referring to one specific quote/article, just the vibe I got from reading. It was confirmed they were planning on putting her in an Uber but then a cab came. Uber has had MULTIPLE sexual assault accusations. While cab drivers are better screened, there is something creepy about putting your drunk friend alone in a cab with a essentially a stranger. Even if the cab driver is perfectly decent, you aren't handing your friend off to another friend - the cab driver won't walk her to the door, be sympathetic if she vomits in the car etc.

IMO, the scenario of LS walking home is 100x safer and logical- I'm not referring to statistics but JRs logic v. Hannah's friends. My point is when you consider both courses of action to get a drunk friend home, while neither was responsible, I understand JRs logic in the moment more than Hannah's group of friends. It's actually funny (not haha funny, obviously) but from personal experience, I can think of multiple times I've walked home alone a few blocks but can't recall drunkenly cabbing alone EVER, in my college town or a city.

I'm not expecting Hannah's friends to anticipate murder or holding them responsible, but IMO its another example of how college kids don't prioritize safety. Unlike Hannah's case, people are so desperate for closure, its easy to tangent the idea of JR letting LS walking home alone as "crazy" but I agree it isn't necessarily.

I agree with everyone who has said what the students think, that it's safe, it's their turf. BUT it isn't safe, yes, it's Bloomington, but not the same Bloomington as even, 10 years ago.

As we have seen here, the college towns are a playground for killers. They may not be NYC or the like, but a specific
victim is there--the drunk, blacked out young woman/man.

As in most of these college towns, morning, noon, afternoon and early evening, no problems. IMO, after 9:30-10 pm,
it's not safe for a woman alone. MOST of the time, nothing is gonna happen.

10 years ago, Bloomington didn't have a raging meth problem. These people are mostly unemployable, and they prey on people in various and evil ways.

Because someone isn't aware of the problem, doesn't change the fact that they are the target. And because some of these students are from bigger cities, they think they are in
Mayberry RFD and don't worry. Sadly, their parents might have this idea too.

When people are drinking and drugging and mixing with a few thousand strangers, the only safety is in numbers. My adice would be, DO NOT GO OUT DRINKING ALONE OR GET SEPARATED FROM YOUR FRIENDS.

This advice should be posted prominently in every bar in town, by decree.

 

[Skigirl]

I agree with everyone who has said what the students think, that it's safe, it's their turf. BUT it isn't safe, yes, it's Bloomington, but not the same Bloomington as even, 10 years ago.

As we have seen here, the college towns are a playground for killers. They may not be NYC or the like, but a specific
victim is there--the drunk, blacked out young woman/man.

As in most of these college towns, morning, noon, afternoon and early evening, no problems. IMO, after 9:30-10 pm,
it's not safe for a woman alone. MOST of the time, nothing is gonna happen.

10 years ago, Bloomington didn't have a raging meth problem. These people are mostly unemployable, and they prey on people in various and evil ways.

Because someone isn't aware of the problem, doesn't change the fact that they are the target. And because some of these students are from bigger cities, they think they are in
Mayberry RFD and don't worry. Sadly, their parents might have this idea too.

When people are drinking and drugging and mixing with a few thousand strangers, the only safety is in numbers. My adice would be, DO NOT GO OUT DRINKING ALONE OR GET SEPARATED FROM YOUR FRIENDS.

This advice should be posted prominently in every bar in town, by decree.

Sadly, statistically, if you're a college woman, you are at far more risk in the type of situation Lauren found herself in 5N than you are alone at night outside.

 

[Ibiz]

4:30 a.m. Lauren Walks Into the Night

Rosenbaum says that Lauren decided to leave, and he watched from his small balcony as she walked to the corner of 11th and North College. He told investigators that he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her. Lauren was never seen again, and surveillance cameras never captured any images of her on the route home.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/solve-mystery-lauren-spierer/story?id=30148388

Does anyone know what floor his balcony was on?

 

[Ros]

I think it is on the second floor.

 

[Ixchel13]

Sadly, statistically, if you're a college woman, you are at far more risk in the type of situation Lauren found herself in 5N than you are alone at night outside.

the statistics would be very relative. The perfect storm of the 5N situation (which btw is described by POI and may not even be true) might fit perfectly with statistics you describe; but i.e.
being with a different group of friends, getting drunk, would not necessarily fit into that.
So yes, being inebriated, alone with 4 drunk men might statistically be more dangerous than a woman sitting at the bar at 10:30 at Kilroys getting inebriated.
Sadly, both situations are not safe. Once you get to "Not Safe", the degree of that will always vary.

Skigirl not being snarky. I try to put into words the climate of Bloomington and it's hard. You've got this seemingly
progressive, good looking town with all the right agenda
and then you see these heinous crimes.mostly against women.

As someone who has been a manager of one of these bars
and has seen first hand the shenanigans that go on,
I can tell you it is not safe for a woman to be out alone.

It's like an evil lottery--sure, it probably won't happen to you.
But it is going to happen to someone. Because among all these happy, drinking people, among the thousands, there's a handful of seriously bad apples with violence on their minds.

And within WS we have read so many cases involving the victim , alone, separated from friends, etc coming into contact with these types and IMO it's because the bad guys are there looking for a situation like that.

 

[Skigirl]

the statistics would be very relative. The perfect storm of the 5N situation (which btw is described by POI and may not even be true) might fit perfectly with statistics you describe; but i.e.
being with a different group of friends, getting drunk, would not necessarily fit into that.
So yes, being inebriated, alone with 4 drunk men might statistically be more dangerous than a woman sitting at the bar at 10:30 at Kilroys getting inebriated.
Sadly, both situations are not safe. Once you get to "Not Safe", the degree of that will always vary.

Skigirl not being snarky. I try to put into words the climate of Bloomington and it's hard. You've got this seemingly
progressive, good looking town with all the right agenda
and then you see these heinous crimes.mostly against women.

As someone who has been a manager of one of these bars
and has seen first hand the shenanigans that go on,
I can tell you it is not safe for a woman to be out alone.

It's like an evil lottery--sure, it probably won't happen to you.
But it is going to happen to someone. Because among all these happy, drinking people, among the thousands, there's a handful of seriously bad apples with violence on their minds.

And within WS we have read so many cases involving the victim , alone, separated from friends, etc coming into contact with these types and IMO it's because the bad guys are there looking for a situation like that.

I am not being snarky either, but I am a former academic, with all of the many years of schools and college towns that that career implies. I spent over ten years in at another midwestern big-ten school as an undergraduate and Ph.D. student, in a very similar progressive, funky town, with a similar mix of students and locals, and I understand quite well what it is like. We had a serial rapist on the loose for some of the time I lived there.

However, the sad truth is that women of college age should be much more afraid of their male acquaintances, friends and lovers than they should of strangers. Men on campuses all over the country commit terrible crimes against women and many are not reported, and those that are, are often sloughed off as a "misunderstanding." Throw alcohol and drugs into the mix and you have an especially dangerous situation.

It is not safe for a woman to walk around alone at night, nor is it safe for her to become inebriated around males of college age. It is especially unsafe for her to find herself separated from her female friends and in a group of drunk male friends, unfortunately. I think that it's highly likely that the statistics hold in this case and that she met her end at the hands of, or at least in the company of, her male "friends". Of course stats don't speak to any specific situation, so she could have been abducted by a stranger, I suppose.

If you are a woman and you are surrounded by a bunch of drunk men and facing a choice of walking home or staying with them, I guess you pick your poison. Personally, I'd avoid the base-rate fallacy and get out of there, even if it meant walking home alone. Neither is safe.

 

[AbbeyR]

Until and if we ever hear and see statements from actual police reports about what was said in moment one to law enforcement and later to PI's then all of this talk of changing stories is just speculation (let alone hear from the PsOI themselves in their own words at any point)....

(snipped)

You often say this, but it doesn't really make sense - When would we have the opportunity to read police reports, hear directly from witnesses or the POI themselves? Obviously, we only have access to things that are investigated and reported. Pointing out the contradictions in those accounts is not speculation. It is more speculative to explain away the contradictions as errors or 'noise' without anything that points to error.

On top of that, I think that what the POI said to police is important, but it's not the only or most important record. What they said to witnesses in their very first accounts may be very telling and could very well expose some important contradictions in their stories that occurred before they lawyered up and shut up.

I often wonder - Why did the people who spoke up to the media speak up? Perhaps they thought it was important that what they were told get out there, since the POI weren't talking. At least two of the witness accounts gave me the impression that they may not have believed the POI's stories even at the time.

 

[akh]

(snipped)

You often say this, but it doesn't really make sense - When would we have the opportunity to read police reports, hear directly from witnesses or the POI themselves? Obviously, we only have access to things that are investigated and reported. Pointing out the contradictions in those accounts is not speculation. It is more speculative to explain away the contradictions as errors or 'noise' without anything that points to error.

We may never hear or see those reports or hear much directly from those people. That includes the witnesses. That is true. But unless we do we need something much more solid than what we have now to make the definitive statement that 5N PsOI have told changing stories like you have done. With all of the known bad reporting surrounding the case it only adds to the lack of confidence to think these second and third hand reports are not at least questionable at best. And it's not like there are gaping differences in the versions that are told. Certainly it's more the kind of things that would get misunderstood in tellings and retellings or the story from one person to the next... to the next... to a reporter... etc...
And then most importantly, we don't have the actual 5N's own official account that they gave at moment one from their own mouths. So that makes it awfully hard to confidently and definitively say their stories have changed, when we in fact don't even know what their frozen in ink (and probably tape/video as well) stories were, as you have done without any caveats.

Again, it's pretty clear you've made up your mind. There is now an actual killer whose actions that we know about that would perfectly fit the profile of someone who would abduct LS in that area. LE is not talking at all, one way or the other. And a person, questionable or not, has come forward and implicated DM in the case. Yet, rather than this lifting this person as a top POI in this case, you've brushed it off. And you brushed it off with the same argument that someone could use for 5N... It's not like LE has shone a spotlight on them or told us anything that would imply they believe them guilty either.

I don't see how anyone in the public, without more official information, cannot elevate DM to a very high status worthy of deeper consideration. Not to the exclusion of 5N, or even the boyfriend, but certainly to something more akin to even odds. In fact, arguably, until something becomes official about his alibi or the situation he was involved in that would change the way this currently looks, a very good argument could be made he should be a top suspect/POI.

Have the 5N stories potentially changed? Yes. If media accounts are accurate in the early days of the case (and the information they were given was accurately relayed) then it's possible. But we already know media accounts overall were not accurate on certain points. We also know 2nd and 3rd hand reports tend to get garbled both in small ways and sometimes large ways in their retelling. And LE sought to discredit either a witness or reports of what that witness had said (especially in regards to the timeline). And we don't really know what the 5N official story given to LE was.
So no, I'm not willing to definitively state their stories have changed nor should anyone else because we simply cannot know that without inside information. I think it's disingenuous at best to make the statement, without caveat, that their stories have changed IMHO. It's certainly far from a smoking gun.

 

[Ixchel13]

I am not being snarky either, but I am a former academic, with all of the many years of schools and college towns that that career implies. I spent over ten years in at another midwestern big-ten school as an undergraduate and Ph.D. student, in a very similar progressive, funky town, with a similar mix of students and locals, and I understand quite well what it is like. We had a serial rapist on the loose for some of the time I lived there.

However, the sad truth is that women of college age should be much more afraid of their male acquaintances, friends and lovers than they should of strangers. Men on campuses all over the country commit terrible crimes against women and many are not reported, and those that are, are often sloughed off as a "misunderstanding." Throw alcohol and drugs into the mix and you have an especially dangerous situation.

It is not safe for a woman to walk around alone at night, nor is it safe for her to become inebriated around males of college age. It is especially unsafe for her to find herself separated from her female friends and in a group of drunk male friends, unfortunately. I think that it's highly likely that the statistics hold in this case and that she met her end at the hands of, or at least in the company of, her male "friends". Of course stats don't speak to any specific situation, so she could have been abducted by a stranger, I suppose.

If you are a woman and you are surrounded by a bunch of drunk men and facing a choice of walking home or staying with them, I guess you pick your poison. Personally, I'd avoid the base-rate fallacy and get out of there, even if it meant walking home alone. Neither is safe.

Very Well Said!

 

[Ixchel13]

(snipped)

You often say this, but it doesn't really make sense - When would we have the opportunity to read police reports, hear directly from witnesses or the POI themselves? Obviously, we only have access to things that are investigated and reported. Pointing out the contradictions in those accounts is not speculation. It is more speculative to explain away the contradictions as errors or 'noise' without anything that points to error.

On top of that, I think that what the POI said to police is important, but it's not the only or most important record. What they said to witnesses in their very first accounts may be very telling and could very well expose some important contradictions in their stories that occurred before they lawyered up and shut up.

I often wonder - Why did the people who spoke up to the media speak up? Perhaps they thought it was important that what they were told get out there, since the POI weren't talking. At least two of the witness accounts gave me the impression that they may not have believed the POI's stories even at the time.

BBM if they are reporting what the POI told them that's hearsay, not "being a witness."

And you're abbysolutely right, what everybody said about what the POIs said is important.

Really, you're both right. People changed their stories and others gave different accounts of the same stories and times.
And then people transposed stories, bars, etc. ,

However, there probably were other witnesses all the way through the scenario, but as Akh points out, cops aren't saying.
IMO of course

 

[Ros]

I already posted this link on the HW thread, but since DM is being discussed here, I thought I would post it here too. The Brown County Prosecutor would like to charge DM as a habitual offender. http://wishtv.com/2015/12/04/man-accused-of-murdering-iu-student-could-face-additional-charge/

 

[Ixchel13]

We may never hear or see those reports or hear much directly from those people. That includes the witnesses. That is true. But unless we do we need something much more solid than what we have now to make the definitive statement that 5N PsOI have told changing stories like you have done. With all of the known bad reporting surrounding the case it only adds to the lack of confidence to think these second and third hand reports are not at least questionable at best. And it's not like there are gaping differences in the versions that are told. Certainly it's more the kind of things that would get misunderstood in tellings and retellings or the story from one person to the next... to the next... to a reporter... etc...
And then most importantly, we don't have the actual 5N's own official account that they gave at moment one from the own mouths. So that makes it awfully hard to confidently and definitively say their stories have changed as you have done without any caveats.

Again, it's pretty clear you've made up your mind. There is now an actual killer whose actions that we know about would perfectly fit the profile of someone who would abduct LS in that area. LE is not talking at all, one way or the other. And a person, questionable or not, has come forward and implicated DM in the case. Yet, rather than this lifting this person as a top POI in this case, you've brushed it off. And you brushed it off with the same argument that someone could use for 5N... It's not like LE has shone a spotlight on them or told us anything that would imply they believe them guilty either.

I don't see how anyone in the public, without more official information, cannot elevate DM to a very high status worthy of deeper consideration. Not to the exclusion of 5N, or even the boyfriend, but certainly to something more akin to even odds. In fact, arguably, until something becomes official about his alibi or the situation he was involved in that would change the way this currently looks, a very good argument could be made he should be a top suspect/POI.

Have the 5N stories potentially changed? Yes. If media accounts are accurate in the early days of the case then it's possible. But we already know media accounts overall were not accurate on certain points. And LE sought to discredit either a witness or reports of what that witness had said (especially in regards to the timeline). And we don't really know what the 5N official story given to LE was.
So no, I'm not willing to definitively state their stories have changed nor should anyone else because we simply cannot know that without inside information. I think it's disingenuous at best to make the statement, without caveat, that their stories have changed IMHO. It's certainly far from a smoking gun.

I gotta agree with DM being a top suspect! Yes we've all bought in heavily with the 5N + however many else in that group.

But, DM fits the bill. to a tee.

We do know Lauren was conscious, and emerged from
the alley at 2:52.

It's ok to speculate and even to guess what may have happened, because this is a crime deduction website.

In respect to LE, It's ok to feel left out, misinformed, purposely mislead,manipulated, and used. This is what they do. They don't owe us explanations for their tactics. In return, I guess they agree to go after these dangerous, slimy, evil people
while we speculate about it.

Lauren's disappearance changed my life, my way of thinking. It's like she somehow found a way into my heart, that's not really it, more like I made a place in my heart for her.Being lost she has found her way into so many peoples' lives.

I remember when she first disappeared, so many other women here "of an age" felt like this too, so many commented
about our own lives and how all of this could have happened to us but it didn't..

 

[AbbeyR]

So no, I'm not willing to definitively state their stories have changed nor should anyone else because we simply cannot know that without inside information. I think it's disingenuous at best to make the statement, without caveat, that their stories have changed IMHO. It's certainly far from a smoking gun.

Well, on top of the multiple / contradictory accounts from friends, lawyers, etc., the Spierers and their private investigators have flat out said that their stories don't add up and are that they are almost certainly withholding information. When the last people to be seen with a missing person can't tell a coherent story of the last hours they were with her and refuse to fully cooperate with an investigation, this is, at minimum, the most valid place to begin asking questions.

DM sounds like a monster - so that's a place to ask questions too! I do think there is a possibility that he could be involved in Lauren's case if there happened to be the right set of extremely unlikely circumstances. But, I'm certain that if he was involved, LE would have or will be able to find evidence to link him to the case through video surveillance footage or other evidence. It seems it would be likely that they could identify him or his vehicle if it was in the area, and in Hannah's case, it seems he did practically nothing to conceal evidence. I do wonder why the private investigators were quick to dismiss a connection though since they obviously know more about this case than we do.

If Lauren was the victim of a random abduction, and the POI's changing stories are simply the result of them wanting to avoid all responsibility for getting her wasted and then sending her out into the night barefoot and without a cell phone, then it's unfortunate that they have done so at Lauren's expense -- and really, their own, since they will continue to live in the shadow of the "person of interest" label until this crime is solved.

 

[Skigirl]

I gotta agree with DM being a top suspect! Yes we've all bought in heavily with the 5N + however many else in that group.

But, DM fits the bill. to a tee.

We do know Lauren was conscious, and emerged from
the alley at 2:52.

It's ok to speculate and even to guess what may have happened, because this is a crime deduction website.

In respect to LE, It's ok to feel left out, misinformed, purposely mislead,manipulated, and used. This is what they do. They don't owe us explanations for their tactics. In return, I guess they agree to go after these dangerous, slimy, evil people
while we speculate about it.

Lauren's disappearance changed my life, my way of thinking. It's like she somehow found a way into my heart, that's not really it, more like I made a place in my heart for her.Being lost she has found her way into so many peoples' lives.

I remember when she first disappeared, so many other women here "of an age" felt like this too, so many commented
about our own lives and how all of this could have happened to us but it didn't..

Oh gosh, I totally agree with this. When I remember all the times when either I made poor decisions, or things just sort of "happened" in a way that put me in the kind of danger that could have resulted in a Lauren-like outcome for myself, I just feel so badly for the Lauren and the Spierers. Just the other night I was walking the dogs at dusk -- and as I entered the park near my house, I thought, "gee... it's a tad too late to be heading through this way alone at night..." and just as I had the thought, two shady characters appeared from behind a picnic pavilion, obviously high on something and seemingly up to no good. As they walked by me, I thought to myself how easily one of them could have veered toward me, how easily I could have ended up shot or stabbed. Most of us have made poor decisions or otherwise have been at risk at some point, but fortunately, most of us don't pay for it with our lives.