IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #8

[Faulkner]

I don't believe young men are usually so protective of women that might be intoxicated yet are hanging out with some man. Unless they either know the woman or the boyfriend of that woman.

Maybe. I certainly never suggested they didn't know her so I don't know why you would say that other than to be argumentative for the sake of it. My point is regarding Lauren's state of mind to rationally determine what she wanted that night and I certainly doubt that she was in any condition to determine what she wanted that night from a rational perspective.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Given the state Lauren was in -- leaving most of her belongings all over -- I doubt that she was in any position to be looking to hook up that night of her own volition. It just doesn't jive with her condition of disarray. And, given that the friends that confronted CR were in a position to witness her condition, I feel they likely were being protective of, and concerned about, Lauren being in a vulnerable state rather than merely being protective of her being some other guy's property, so to speak.

IMO if either is the case(the frat bros fighting CR due to her being JWs "property" or due to their concern for Lauren).. Either way IMO the only logical next move that fits is that they notified their buddy, their frat bro, JW.. If it were done out of anger and jealousy for the sake of their buddy JW then IMO then next logical move given that immediately after their confrontation with CR Lauren immediately leaves with CR to go to his place.. So whether out of anger or out of concern for Laurens well being with her immediately leaving her apt complex with CR headed to his place.. IMO the guys definitely would have notified JW..and if it's found that did indeed occur it is a total and complete game changer IMO..

Because who believes that JW would roll over and immediately go to sleep after having learned this extremely disheartening information about his number 1 priority in his entire life?????

I say no way Jose!! So for me that is an important detail that would definitely be indicative of his possible involvement..

And as we all know he and JR(last known to have seen her) are fraternity bros. And if anyone's covering for anyone I could definitely see their frat code of honor being something that would play into their willingness to cover up for a brother.. Jmo tho!

 

[Agent003]

I'm about 99% positive this was not a stranger abduction..

All the stories being told from the "friends" after about 2:45am are lacking details and not adding up. They know what happened, even if not directly involved.

 

[jjenny]

Maybe. I certainly never suggested they didn't know her so I don't know why you would say that other than to be argumentative for the sake of it. My point is regarding Lauren's state of mind to rationally determine what she wanted that night and I certainly doubt that she was in any condition to determine what she wanted that night from a rational perspective.

My point is regardless of whether they thought LS was in a rational state of mind to be hanging with CR, I doubt that there would have been an alleged punching of CR if JW wasn't the boyfriend of LS.

 

[Faulkner]

IMO if either is the case(the frat bros fighting CR due to her being JWs "property" or due to their concern for Lauren).. Either way IMO the only logical next move that fits is that they notified their buddy, their frat bro, JW.. If it were done out of anger and jealousy for the sake of their buddy JW then IMO then next logical move given that immediately after their confrontation with CR Lauren immediately leaves with CR to go to his place.. So whether out of anger or out of concern for Laurens well being with her immediately leaving her apt complex with CR headed to his place.. IMO the guys definitely would have notified JW..and if it's found that did indeed occur it is a total and complete game changer IMO..

Because who believes that JW would roll over and immediately go to sleep after having learned this extremely disheartening information about his number 1 priority in his entire life?????

I say no way Jose!! So for me that is an important detail that would definitely be indicative of his possible involvement..

And as we all know he and JR(last known to have seen her) are fraternity bros. And if anyone's covering for anyone I could definitely see their frat code of honor being something that would play into their willingness to cover up for a brother.. Jmo tho!

I see what you're saying, SO, and I've been looking to see if any other shoe dropped with regard to the bf and those chain of events.

My point is regardless of whether they thought LS was in a rational state of mind to be hanging with CR, I doubt that there would have been an alleged punching of CR if JW wasn't the boyfriend of LS.

Well, the point continues to shift apparently.

She left with a man who was supposedly "bothering" her so I really doubt this was in fact unwanted attention. Why would a small female walk a man home, if that man was in fact "bothering" her?

I responded to the above.

 

[coltsgal]

Can I post a tarot reading that I found for Lauren?

 

[cluciano63]

I wonder if some of the young people suspect that JW, for instance, would have come looking for Lauren, but don't know for sure...and are holding back just on their opinions-while others probably know for sure.

As far as we can tell, JW cannot prove where he was that night, or he would not be a POI. That could be the only reason, but it may be much more than that. I don't think anyone would have hesitated in texting, etc. prior to whatever took place re: Lauren as they would not have expected the worst, so there likely are some records. Even if texts are deleted, LE can probably at least see who sent and received messages and when.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I also wanted to put this out there..

Earlier I read where it was discussed how unlikely these coupla guys would be able to keep all their stories straight and matching this far into the case..

And I wanted to remind that they all have defense Attys hired.. Some the top of the top as far as the best of the best goes.. So with that being the case I do not believe for a moment these guys are in any way whatsoever being interrogated, heavily questioned, or even questioned multiple times.. Some we know have left less than a week into the case.. With one leaving before the case even got started(JR) and to my knowledge he has had not come back yet so it's quite likely that LE haven't even questioned Jay and only have a statement from Jay thru his ATTY..

So, with them being not available to LE, meaning they cannot freely question or interrogate these guys to even see if they "slip up" on their stories..

In knowing that these guys can keep on with possibly hiding imperative details indefinitely..

That's what good money buying a really good ATTY can do for a person.. IMO we don't and LE doesn't have a clue what happened and can't get to the truth because some really good Attys are already in place protecting all of their POI's.. Nothing to make them crack when their untouchable.. They'll skate free and that night be nothing but a ever growing farther and farther distant memory(meaning Lauren)

 

[ingra1327]

IMO if either is the case(the frat bros fighting CR due to her being JWs "property" or due to their concern for Lauren).. Either way IMO the only logical next move that fits is that they notified their buddy, their frat bro, JW.. If it were done out of anger and jealousy for the sake of their buddy JW then IMO then next logical move given that immediately after their confrontation with CR Lauren immediately leaves with CR to go to his place.. So whether out of anger or out of concern for Laurens well being with her immediately leaving her apt complex with CR headed to his place.. IMO the guys definitely would have notified JW..and if it's found that did indeed occur it is a total and complete game changer IMO..

Because who believes that JW would roll over and immediately go to sleep after having learned this extremely disheartening information about his number 1 priority in his entire life?????

I say no way Jose!! So for me that is an important detail that would definitely be indicative of his possible involvement..

And as we all know he and JR(last known to have seen her) are fraternity bros. And if anyone's covering for anyone I could definitely see their frat code of honor being something that would play into their willingness to cover up for a brother.. Jmo tho!

I think JW had to have heard of the fight, also. One thing that makes me think he didn't hurt her, though, is that if he had gone looking for her it seems like MB, memory-loss CR, or JR would have mentioned it in their original stories. Especially MB/CR since they weren't said to be friends with JW. If JW were just waiting outside the apartment to attack her he would have had until 4:30 to cool down and think about it, otherwise we'd have to believe he premeditated an attack on his girlfriend that he'd loved for several years. Although I know this happens much too often.
JR just seems so much more suspicious to me.

 

[JeannaT]

I've never heard it reported that the boyfriend was either angry or looking for her. She left with a man who was supposedly "bothering" her so I really doubt this was in fact unwanted attention. Why would a small female walk a man home, if that man was in fact "bothering" her?

I've seen it reported a lot of places that the boyfriend was both angry and looking for her. (Not in a rage, just irritated. She was out and couldn't be reached all night. That with a history of drinking.).

I completely agree that when she left with Corey, she wanted to - and his attention was not unwanted.

 

[dodie20]

A stranger abduction isn't out of the realm of possibility, if LS was indeed walking alone. I think there are a lot more predators out there than we realize. When I was a teen, I walked around our area quite a bit, and not one time, did my friends and I not get harrassed. Men of all ages, colors, shapes and sizes, would yell 'hey baby...need a ride?' etc...After I got married and had a child, I tried to stroll my baby and walk for the exercise, but the same old bs happened. My daughter's a waitress and the male customers can be horrible...married men will slip her their numbers, she has been stalked, guys treat her possessively, just because they're regular customers, she's gotten love letters, flowers, etc...from men she barely knows. And this is at a Mexican food restaurant! This society treats women in certain situations, like they're there for the taking... and that includes women who are walking alone. A drunk woman walking alone, even for just a few minutes, would be especially vulnerable. I have no doubt that the odds are high, that in that few minutes, some depraved man with entitlement issues, might try to seize an opportunity. But, after taking what he wanted, I really don't think there would be a reason to kill her...not when he could just leave. One thing I have considered, is sometimes we hear about people who get a hold of bad drugs and they all wind up in ERs. Since LS's friend claims to have suffered memory loss, maybe they were slipped or got a hold of something toxic...& what was bad enough to make him, (a healthy young man), sick and suffer memory loss, affected her, (a small female with a heart problem), in a worse way. IDK, but I hope LE is keeping their ears open to the possibility of bad drugs making the rounds. MOO

 

[bessie]

Can I post a tarot reading that I found for Lauren?

If that means copying and pasting someone's work from another site, then no. I don't see a problem with posting a link.

 

[SeaEclipse]

I also just joined the forum (I came across it following Lauren's case) and just have a few random thoughts that I wanted to note:

(1) I assume that the basketball game that JW was watching was the first game of the NBA finals. The game was in Miami and started at 9, so it should have been over by 12 at the latest. Didn't HT say very early on that LS went with DR to watch a basketball game with JR/CR et al? That doesn't make any sense given that she didn't leave until 12:30.

(2) I don't know what to make of the 4:15 phone call from JR's phone (supposedly LS) to DR; however, I do think it's possible that LS made the call... indeed, I think that would be less weird than JR making the call. If LS made the call, it could be because DR was carrying her phone for her when they initially went over to JR/CR's and she drunkenly thought that she never got it back. I don't think the call v. text is that weird if she assumed DR would be sleeping and was trying to wake him up. It was, after all, 4:15 in the morning and she knew DR went back to his place 2 or 3 hours earlier. If JR made the call: why? The only possible explanation I can think of is trying to establish and alibi, but it seems a weird/unlikely way to do it... and what if DR had picked up? I just do not believe that JR called DR -- over in a different apartment building and likely asleep for hours -- to help cover up an accidental OD/sexual assault/anything else.

(3) I don't think that anyone from Smallwood who police can confirm entered when they said they did, are never shown leaving on camera, never swiped their door keys and are then seen exiting the next morning when they said they did are really suspects. That to me rules out DR and HT more or less entirely unless police are withholding critical info.

(4) Similarly, I think it's unlikely that JW could have made it all the way across town to intercept LS somewhere without turning up on a single camera or being spotted by a single person. If he did it, I think it would have been spur of the moment/rage-driven and it's incredibly unlikely he would have miraculously avoided all detection before the fact (i.e., before he knew there was a reason to). Again, I believe JW is ruled out unless LE is withholding crucial info.

(5) That leaves the guys who live in the JR/CR/MB/etc building or a third-party (likely a stranger). Since JR/CR/MB/etc would already have been in the area when whatever happened happened (if it did), their presence there wouldn't be strange if confirmed by camera or otherwise. I find it a lot more believable that they would be able to evade detection/cameras after whatever happened, since they would know that they needed to do so. (My only extra question here would be: Is there any possibility of an overlap between the guys who got into the altercation with CR at Sports and the residents of the buildings that CR/MB/JR live in? The same logic would apply to them.)

JR is obviously the most suspect of these guys since he has self-reported seeing her last... but MB also doesn't have much of an alibi. Suppose JR is only guilty of letting LS drunkenly stumble off and is now too embarrassed to say that he made up the "seeing her to the corner" story (which, as previous posters have illustrated, doesn't make that much sense anyway) to cover his ... Is it possible she would have gone back to CR/MB's to try to retrieve her phone (or keys, if she noticed those were missing too) there? If so, we have MB's word that he put CR to bed... but couldn't that theoretically leave MB without an alibi? And, unlike the others, we know he wasn't drunk. Of course, MB could have been in bed on her return and this same logic could apply to their other mystery roommates instead... we have no idea where they were at that point.

Anyway, the above isn't to say that MB is guilty... I have no reason to think he is. It's just to say that LS could go between apartments in JR's complex without being spotted on camera, so it seems like the answer could plausibly be in any of those apartments.

I really wish that LE had released the info of who passed a lie detector at the very least... while not perfect, it would give us a better idea of who's story to use as the base story against which to compare the others. I also wish they would tell us more about who was home in the various apartments at various points. My best guess is that CR, at least, passed a poly, since the police seem to have backed off him a bit.

 

[Faulkner]

I have felt the same way, but as I was reminded of by lovejac a couple of threads back, the absence of verbal and facial cues can cause misunderstandings that aren't meant to be offensive. We are all here for the same reason: to find Lauren. Please join!

Thanks, ingra. I think it's significant that many of us see this. I just don't have a lot of free time right now in any event. Maybe I'll check in later in the week to see if the mood has changed -- If only there could be some dramatic turn where Lauren is found alive and OK. If there is, I'll definitely be back to celebrate. Take care, everyone. :smile:

 

[October]

I think JW had to have heard of the fight, also. One thing that makes me think he didn't hurt her, though, is that if he had gone looking for her it seems like MB, memory-loss CR, or JR would have mentioned it in their original stories. Especially MB/CR since they weren't said to be friends with JW. If JW were just waiting outside the apartment to attack her he would have had until 4:30 to cool down and think about it, otherwise we'd have to believe he premeditated an attack on his girlfriend that he'd loved for several years. Although I know this happens much too often.
JR just seems so much more suspicious to me.

Since we're speculating here, here's mine:

I think LS was definitely interested in CR. Perhaps she had a fight with her boyfriend, or maybe the relationship had been on the rocks. I don't know, but I don't think everything was as perfect as the friends are making it out to be. After LS and CR left Kilroy's, they head back to her apartment, probably to get a pair of shoes for her before they head back to her place. In the elevators at Smallwood, they run into a group of the boyfriend's friends. Perhaps they have just left the bar as well, but I have no doubt they were also intoxicated.

The friends are none too happy about seeing the physical intimacy between LS and CR. A fight ensues just outside the elevator, and CR is punched in the face. If I'm LS, at this point I would be furious with JW's friends. I would also want to get the heck out of there, and would take the first opportunity I got to grab CR and run. This would explain why they didn't make it to her apartment and left. At this point LS and CR leave Smallwood. LS is probably very concerned about CR, as he's obviously hurting and acting strange. They stumble down the alley to his apartment. LS is probably preoccupied with helping CR and intoxicated herself, and she loses her keys. I do think they made it back to CR's, and I do think that he went to bed.

What I am sure of at this point, is that LS liked this guy. I feel like people want to make excuses for this, but I think the evidence is clear. She was okay with the "inappropriate attention" and she left with him. She would not have done that if she was uncomfortable and I see no evidence she was forced. I think JW's friends are the ones she wanted to get away from. I also think that there is no way in he** that JW's friends did not make him aware of the situation that night. They felt strongly enough about defending JW that one of them punched a guy. That's pretty serious. I don't see how JW would not have been informed.

I'm not sure what happened after LS left CR's, but I can see the boyfriend coming to look for her and confronting her. He would have been angry and hurt when he found out, and that's not something that you fall asleep knowing. You confront the situation, especially if you're an impulsive, partying college kid. She also would have been angry about the friends' actions. If something did happen with the boyfriend, I think it was accidental. He didn't set out to hurt her, but given the emotions, alcohol and possible drugs, something could have happened. It could be as simple as her heart giving out and the boyfriend, in his clouded state of mind, panicking.This is probably the theory I lean strongest toward.

If the boyfriend was involved, I can see him blaming CR for all of it, thus the confrontation a few days later. An. "OMG, how dare you mess with my girlfriend, if you hadn't done that none of this would have happened" type of thing.

Again, this is all speculation on my part, but none of it is outside the realm of possibility.

 

[phantomthought]

I was looking at the public twitters and noticed that on June 3rd 2 of LS's roommates tweeted that anyone with info about Lauren to call a 917 phone number. 917 is an area code used for cell phones in NY. Did a search on the number and only came up with the fact that is a Verizon Wireless number based in Manhattan, but that means next to nothing as we ll know.

Anyone notice this/have we talked about it at some point?

Was there a time stamp on them.Also wondering did the bf ever appear at any of the news conferences asking about his gf.

 

[TonyGatto]

I also just joined the forum (I came across it following Lauren's case) and just have a few random thoughts that I wanted to note:

(1) I assume that the basketball game that JW was watching was the first game of the NBA finals. The game was in Miami and started at 9, so it should have been over by 12 at the latest. Didn't HT say very early on that LS went with DR to watch a basketball game with JR/CR et al? That doesn't make any sense given that she didn't leave until 12:30.

(2) I don't know what to make of the 4:15 phone call from JR's phone (supposedly LS) to DR; however, I do think it's possible that LS made the call... indeed, I think that would be less weird than JR making the call. If LS made the call, it could be because DR was carrying her phone for her when they initially went over to JR/CR's and she drunkenly thought that she never got it back. I don't think the call v. text is that weird if she assumed DR would be sleeping and was trying to wake him up. It was, after all, 4:15 in the morning and she knew DR went back to his place 2 or 3 hours earlier. If JR made the call: why? The only possible explanation I can think of is trying to establish and alibi, but it seems a weird/unlikely way to do it... and what if DR had picked up? I just do not believe that JR called DR -- over in a different apartment building and likely asleep for hours -- to help cover up an accidental OD/sexual assault/anything else.

(3) I don't think that anyone from Smallwood who police can confirm entered when they said they did, are never shown leaving on camera, never swiped their door keys and are then seen exiting the next morning when they said they did are really suspects. That to me rules out DR and HT more or less entirely unless police are withholding critical info.

(4) Similarly, I think it's unlikely that JW could have made it all the way across town to intercept LS somewhere without turning up on a single camera or being spotted by a single person. If he did it, I think it would have been spur of the moment/rage-driven and it's incredibly unlikely he would have miraculously avoided all detection before the fact (i.e., before he knew there was a reason to). Again, I believe JW is ruled out unless LE is withholding crucial info.

(5) That leaves the guys who live in the JR/CR/MB/etc building or a third-party (likely a stranger). Since JR/CR/MB/etc would already have been in the area when whatever happened happened (if it did), their presence there wouldn't be strange if confirmed by camera or otherwise. I find it a lot more believable that they would be able to evade detection/cameras after whatever happened, since they would know that they needed to do so. (My only extra question here would be: Is there any possibility of an overlap between the guys who got into the altercation with CR at Sports and the residents of the buildings that CR/MB/JR live in? The same logic would apply to them.)

JR is obviously the most suspect of these guys since he has self-reported seeing her last... but MB also doesn't have much of an alibi. Suppose JR is only guilty of letting LS drunkenly stumble off and is now too embarrassed to say that he made up the "seeing her to the corner" story (which, as previous posters have illustrated, doesn't make that much sense anyway) to cover his ... Is it possible she would have gone back to CR/MB's to try to retrieve her phone (or keys, if she noticed those were missing too) there? If so, we have MB's word that he put CR to bed... but couldn't that theoretically leave MB without an alibi? And, unlike the others, we know he wasn't drunk. Of course, MB could have been in bed on her return and this same logic could apply to their other mystery roommates instead... we have no idea where they were at that point.

Anyway, the above isn't to say that MB is guilty... I have no reason to think he is. It's just to say that LS could go between apartments in JR's complex without being spotted on camera, so it seems like the answer could plausibly be in any of those apartments.

I really wish that LE had released the info of who passed a lie detector at the very least... while not perfect, it would give us a better idea of who's story to use as the base story against which to compare the others. I also wish they would tell us more about who was home in the various apartments at various points. My best guess is that CR, at least, passed a poly, since the police seem to have backed off him a bit.

Very good observations, most important which is:

(1) I assume that the basketball game that JW was watching was the first game (I believe it was game 2, ending 11-11:30) of the NBA finals. The game was in Miami and started at 9, so it should have been over by 12 at the latest. Didn't HT say very early on that LS went with DR to watch a basketball game with JR/CR et al? That doesn't make any sense given that she didn't leave until 12:30.

There is a problem with the timeline here. The game was at 9p but the narrative makes it feel like the game was later. Where did LS watch the game. Unclear if it was Smallwood or 5 North.

 

[TonyGatto]

(4) Similarly, I think it's unlikely that JW could have made it all the way across town to intercept LS somewhere without turning up on a single camera or being spotted by a single person. If he did it, I think it would have been spur of the moment/rage-driven and it's incredibly unlikely he would have miraculously avoided all detection before the fact (i.e., before he knew there was a reason to). Again, I believe JW is ruled out unless LE is withholding crucial info.

My feeling. If JW went out that night, it would have been shortly after 2:30. So he didn't get hold of her and stop her from her dangerous behavior and there is no evidence he ever went out. All eyes on JR.

 

[coltsgal]

If that means copying and pasting someone's work from another site, then no. I don't see a problem with posting a link.

Yes, I meant to say that I wanted to post a link.

It's interesting, although not much more than we already know, except maybe her "future" readings.

I'm usually skeptical about tarot card readings and psychics, but here goes for anyone who wants to read it.

http://empathysinsights.blogspot.com/2011/06/lauren-spierer.html

 

[SeaEclipse]

Very good observations, most important which is:



There is a problem with the timeline here. The game was at 9p but the narrative makes it feel like the game was later. Where did LS watch the game. Unclear if it was Smallwood or 5 North.

Sorry, the wrong bit of your post is quoted above, but you are completely correct in your bolded notation to my post: it was Game 2, but at the time/in the place noted in my post (9-12 (at the latest) in Miami, so same time zone as Indiana).