A possibility, some religions adhere to the belief that baptism is a prerequisite to a proper after-life, iirc. so...let's get baptized and go to heaven all at once? who knows.
IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek
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A possibility, some religions adhere to the belief that baptism is a prerequisite to a proper after-life, iirc. so...let's get baptized and go to heaven all at once? who knows.
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Someone upthread mentioned the possibility of postpartum depression. Possibly the mom was having mental issues, and it all blended together in a weird religious ritualistic baptism, as a way to move on to the next life.
There is no way a 6 month old accidentally ends up in the creek naked. Mom had to do that. And the 10 yr old wouldn't drown in that shallow water very easily. So I think mom helped there too. :cry::cry::cry::rose::rose::rose:
FragileSugar
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Mother of woman found dead in creek speaks about daughter and grandchildren
Although they haven't come to any conclusions yet, Henderson says they haven't ruled out murder-suicide.
Jaime Clutter's family says they still believe someone else is responsible.
"There's no way. We know our daughter too well for that to even have taken place, " says Carrie Pink.
"How does your mind wrap around things like that. You just can't wrap around it. It's unbelievable," says Bill Pink, Jaime's father.
Clutter and her husband Mike attended Greater Faith church in New Albany.
"I didn't ever perceive Jaime or Mike as extremists, and we're certainly not extremists. We're just people trying to help others live a better life," says Pastor Todd Nichols with Greater Faith Church.
Pastor Todd Nichols says Jaime Clutter recently told him she was happier than ever.
Although they haven't come to any conclusions yet, Henderson says they haven't ruled out murder-suicide.
Jaime Clutter's family says they still believe someone else is responsible.
"There's no way. We know our daughter too well for that to even have taken place, " says Carrie Pink.
"How does your mind wrap around things like that. You just can't wrap around it. It's unbelievable," says Bill Pink, Jaime's father.
Clutter and her husband Mike attended Greater Faith church in New Albany.
"I didn't ever perceive Jaime or Mike as extremists, and we're certainly not extremists. We're just people trying to help others live a better life," says Pastor Todd Nichols with Greater Faith Church.
Pastor Todd Nichols says Jaime Clutter recently told him she was happier than ever.
FragileSugar
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Children found dead in New Albany creek drowned
Pastor Nichols said he finds it hard to believe that either Jamie or Mike could be responsible for the deaths.
"What I know of Mike, I personally have not felt he is capable of committing a crime like this," Nichols said. "All I've seen is a man that loves his family and loves his wife. He is a tremendous father and cares about them deeply. He's been very open with me and open with the police."
Nichols said the family attended two services on Sunday and that he had spoken with Jamie since then. He said he asked her how she was doing, and she told him she was the happiest she had ever been.
At a press conference Friday afternoon, Henderson was asked whether a religious belief could be the motive for the deaths. He would only reiterate that investigators were not ruling out anything.
Pastor Nichols said Greater Faith Church preaches the value of human life. "We teach all life is important and people ought to live life to the fullest," he said. "I didn't perceive Jamie or Mike as extremist, and we're not extremists, and we are people that are just trying to help others live a better life and find their way to God."
Pastor Nichols said he finds it hard to believe that either Jamie or Mike could be responsible for the deaths.
"What I know of Mike, I personally have not felt he is capable of committing a crime like this," Nichols said. "All I've seen is a man that loves his family and loves his wife. He is a tremendous father and cares about them deeply. He's been very open with me and open with the police."
Nichols said the family attended two services on Sunday and that he had spoken with Jamie since then. He said he asked her how she was doing, and she told him she was the happiest she had ever been.
At a press conference Friday afternoon, Henderson was asked whether a religious belief could be the motive for the deaths. He would only reiterate that investigators were not ruling out anything.
Pastor Nichols said Greater Faith Church preaches the value of human life. "We teach all life is important and people ought to live life to the fullest," he said. "I didn't perceive Jamie or Mike as extremist, and we're not extremists, and we are people that are just trying to help others live a better life and find their way to God."
marycarney
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BBM: The hallmark sign of someone who has made a suicide decision after struggling with the decision is that they appear happy/ relieved/ like a weight is lifted off of them. NOT saying this is the case, but with all the other little pieces of information confirmed by LE - it fits the scenario.
Here's what I wonder: The family relocated from Washington to be nearer HIS family, right? Perhaps the separation from HER family played into it?
MOO and all that jazz.
BeginnersLuck
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From the same link as above:
I do find it strange that the father came home, looked around for a few minutes and then called the pastor and drove to the police station. As he was in route to the police station the bodies were found. I hope they can get a approximate time of death for all three. I'm not sure if the temperature of the cold water would affect that or not?
The family was obviously very involved with the church if the husband first phone call was to the pastor, they spent a lot of their time there, moved back there because of the church and the little boy was outreaching to the community. It appears there was a lot of time spent teaching the little boy this considering he was homeschooled. It is apparent their faith was a huge part of their lives.
I was very curious about the religion and the 14 week Thursday night study that the little boy spoke of to the neighbor, so last night I spent some time learning about the course. It's a CD lesson set that can be purchased for $199 through EndTime Ministries. Irvin Baxter a evangelist, teaches this and their current church appears to follow his teachings. I watched a youtube video that describes each lesson.
Lessons include topics about barcoding of all people (the mark of the beast) and how to keep this from happening to you. The Antichrist and false prophets is one lesson and throughout these lessons comparisons are made to what is currently happening in the world today. This evangelist doesn't give a definite date of when the end of the world will come, he just indicates it could be sooner than we expect and gives reference at times to two or three years.
Just one note that I want to make, was the day they were found, is the same day the pope was elected. I was looking for any significant religious event that happened that day.
I just want to note, that my reason for researching the end of times teaching, was because I have always been curious about what draws so many people to these beliefs and practices and if followers share similar personality types. I am very ignorant when it comes to different religions and their practices.
I hope this doesn't end up being another one of those cases where mental illness or other signs of violence were ignored and instead religion is seen as a fix all for everything that ails us.
http://www.wave3.com/story/21656460/children-found-dead-in-new-albany-creek-drowned
I do find it strange that the father came home, looked around for a few minutes and then called the pastor and drove to the police station. As he was in route to the police station the bodies were found. I hope they can get a approximate time of death for all three. I'm not sure if the temperature of the cold water would affect that or not?
The family was obviously very involved with the church if the husband first phone call was to the pastor, they spent a lot of their time there, moved back there because of the church and the little boy was outreaching to the community. It appears there was a lot of time spent teaching the little boy this considering he was homeschooled. It is apparent their faith was a huge part of their lives.
I was very curious about the religion and the 14 week Thursday night study that the little boy spoke of to the neighbor, so last night I spent some time learning about the course. It's a CD lesson set that can be purchased for $199 through EndTime Ministries. Irvin Baxter a evangelist, teaches this and their current church appears to follow his teachings. I watched a youtube video that describes each lesson.
Lessons include topics about barcoding of all people (the mark of the beast) and how to keep this from happening to you. The Antichrist and false prophets is one lesson and throughout these lessons comparisons are made to what is currently happening in the world today. This evangelist doesn't give a definite date of when the end of the world will come, he just indicates it could be sooner than we expect and gives reference at times to two or three years.
Just one note that I want to make, was the day they were found, is the same day the pope was elected. I was looking for any significant religious event that happened that day.
I just want to note, that my reason for researching the end of times teaching, was because I have always been curious about what draws so many people to these beliefs and practices and if followers share similar personality types. I am very ignorant when it comes to different religions and their practices.
I hope this doesn't end up being another one of those cases where mental illness or other signs of violence were ignored and instead religion is seen as a fix all for everything that ails us.
BeginnersLuck
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In this latest article LE is saying that the relocation due to the church. I wonder if after researching things further they found this to be the case as it was stated in earlier articles, it was for job purposes.
I get the feeling the church does not want any negative attention brought to it because of this incident.
Reader
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A few things that I'm wondering about:
What was the time of death? It just seems since this is a public park surrounded by houses, if they had been in the creek for some time someone would have seen them before around 5pm.
Did anybody notice the 3 at the park during the day? Did the neighbors notice when they left the house and if someone else was with them?
If it was murder/suicide, since they apparently walked to the park, was the boy drugged and forcefully drowned? I can see the baby being carried there but not the 10 year old boy. If he was drugged wouldn't that be done after they got into the park?
I read in one of the articles, the pastor said the father was very tired since he left for work around 4:30AM. I don't know if he had a long ride to and from work but it seems coming home at 5PM is a little late for working an 8 hour day.
All just questions, speculation and IMO....
What was the time of death? It just seems since this is a public park surrounded by houses, if they had been in the creek for some time someone would have seen them before around 5pm.
Did anybody notice the 3 at the park during the day? Did the neighbors notice when they left the house and if someone else was with them?
If it was murder/suicide, since they apparently walked to the park, was the boy drugged and forcefully drowned? I can see the baby being carried there but not the 10 year old boy. If he was drugged wouldn't that be done after they got into the park?
I read in one of the articles, the pastor said the father was very tired since he left for work around 4:30AM. I don't know if he had a long ride to and from work but it seems coming home at 5PM is a little late for working an 8 hour day.
All just questions, speculation and IMO....
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So now we wait for the tox reports.
It would be nice to know what the neighbors saw/heard.
Prayers to the families/friends.
RIP
It would be nice to know what the neighbors saw/heard.
Prayers to the families/friends.
RIP
marycarney
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BBM: Ah, but not everyone works an 8-hour day. I know I work 12s.
BeginnersLuck
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I have these questions as well. I thought I read in one of the articles the last time they were seen was 7:30 am. I remember reading that and thinking, that must have been when the father left for work.
I need to go back and look for where that was stated. I may just be confused.
wfgodot
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snip and bbm
Unless this turns out to be the misstatement of the century, what happened seems fairly clear; well, "fairly clear" for a case in which the spokespastor cites "odd and unexplainable things" and the coroner - at least via the reporter's account - uses words like "strange" and "bizarre."
michmi
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As soon as I saw the church's Facebook I wondered if the Pope's election figured into either the son or mom's end-times scenario. The white smoke appeared around 2 p.m. EST indicating a new pope, Pope Francis made his appearance about 3:15 p.m. I'm probably reaching here but the timing coincides.
FragileSugar
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There is the "Prophecy of the Popes" end of the world prediction:
Church prophecy predicting end of the world a hoax, say experts
There were some, however, who may have watched the recent papal conclave with a bit of trepidation. That’s because of a nearly thousand year-old church prophecy, one that predicts the most recent papal election would bring about the end of the world.
The “Prophecy of the Popes” was first “revealed” by Arnold Wion, a Benedictine monk, in 1595 AD. He claimed the writing actually dated back to the 12th century, the result of a vision from St. Malachy, Patron Saint of the Archdiocese of Armagh and one of the most venerated figures in the Irish Catholic cannon.
<snip>
Here’s the catch: Malachy’s vision predicted 112 Popes, starting with Celestine II in 1143 AD and ending with the final Pope – called “Peter the Roman” in the verses - bringing about the end times.
And wouldn’t you know it – the election of Pope Francis corresponds to the 112th Pope in Malachy’s vision.
Church prophecy predicting end of the world a hoax, say experts
There were some, however, who may have watched the recent papal conclave with a bit of trepidation. That’s because of a nearly thousand year-old church prophecy, one that predicts the most recent papal election would bring about the end of the world.
The “Prophecy of the Popes” was first “revealed” by Arnold Wion, a Benedictine monk, in 1595 AD. He claimed the writing actually dated back to the 12th century, the result of a vision from St. Malachy, Patron Saint of the Archdiocese of Armagh and one of the most venerated figures in the Irish Catholic cannon.
<snip>
Here’s the catch: Malachy’s vision predicted 112 Popes, starting with Celestine II in 1143 AD and ending with the final Pope – called “Peter the Roman” in the verses - bringing about the end times.
And wouldn’t you know it – the election of Pope Francis corresponds to the 112th Pope in Malachy’s vision.
BeginnersLuck
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The preview for the 7th CD in the series is titled "The Holy Roman Empire Reborn". The preview of that CD begins with:
The antichrist and the false prophet will in fact come from this reborn holy roman empire
The 8th CD is titled "The Antichrist and The False Prophet"
If the church was on schedule with the 14 week Thursday night showing of the videos, then the last one the family would have seen before they were found deceased was the 8th CD. (I got the heebie jeebies from watching these previews)
In the video at this link it says the family attended church everyday and had attended two services on Sunday. http://www.wave3.com/story/21656460/children-found-dead-in-new-albany-creek-drowned
To each his own, but contrary to what the pastor says, IMO I would consider this extreme along with the church teachings being extreme.
I could not find where I thought it was reported, that the family was seen at 7:30 that morning, but I did find this:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/21657563/...creek-speaks-about-daughter-and-grandchildren
The antichrist and the false prophet will in fact come from this reborn holy roman empire
The 8th CD is titled "The Antichrist and The False Prophet"
If the church was on schedule with the 14 week Thursday night showing of the videos, then the last one the family would have seen before they were found deceased was the 8th CD. (I got the heebie jeebies from watching these previews)
In the video at this link it says the family attended church everyday and had attended two services on Sunday. http://www.wave3.com/story/21656460/children-found-dead-in-new-albany-creek-drowned
To each his own, but contrary to what the pastor says, IMO I would consider this extreme along with the church teachings being extreme.
I could not find where I thought it was reported, that the family was seen at 7:30 that morning, but I did find this:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/21657563/...creek-speaks-about-daughter-and-grandchildren
FragileSugar
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I'm I the only one creeped out by the fact that the pastor seems to have an awful lot to say? It seems like every article is quote after quote from this guy. I don't know. It just strikes me as weird.
What about how the husband contacts the pastor before calling the police or searching?
colette
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Maybe he called to find out if the pastor knew where she was or if he had heard from her. It seems reasonable since it sounds like that church was her and her son's whole life from what she told the neighbor.
BeginnersLuck
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I have to pretty much sit on my hands with what I want to say. I have been doing a lot of reading and research. It seems like SM has stopped or slowed down over recent months and the website for the church is down. I haven't seen anyone other than the pastor say anything anywhere about the loss of the family. I would have thought that being so active in the church some other members may have commented.
As I was learning about the religion, I kind of got the impression that women don't hold much of a position and are rather quiet. It felt controlling to me. This may not be true in all cases though.
O/T and not related to any place or person in general:
I was also amazed at how people seem to worship the church leaders almost on the same level as they worship their God. If they ask questions or say anything that contradicts what their leaders say, they are quickly shot down and ganged up on by fellow members. I'm making this statement in general, not necessarily towards this church. It was just what I saw from looking at various church FB pages. I also noticed a lot of judgement towards others that don't share the same beliefs.
I understand that people are passionate about their religion and their individual place of worship. There is nothing wrong with that and spirituality is a important component in a lot of peoples lives.
There have been so many scandals though in the church and it appears that one of the biggest problems along with cover up, is people are taught not to question their elders. Not all people that preach are necessarily in it for the right reasons.
Ok, I'm done reading about different religions now. I've had enough. I just needed to rant a little bit and get that off my chest.
As I was learning about the religion, I kind of got the impression that women don't hold much of a position and are rather quiet. It felt controlling to me. This may not be true in all cases though.
O/T and not related to any place or person in general:
I was also amazed at how people seem to worship the church leaders almost on the same level as they worship their God. If they ask questions or say anything that contradicts what their leaders say, they are quickly shot down and ganged up on by fellow members. I'm making this statement in general, not necessarily towards this church. It was just what I saw from looking at various church FB pages. I also noticed a lot of judgement towards others that don't share the same beliefs.
I understand that people are passionate about their religion and their individual place of worship. There is nothing wrong with that and spirituality is a important component in a lot of peoples lives.
There have been so many scandals though in the church and it appears that one of the biggest problems along with cover up, is people are taught not to question their elders. Not all people that preach are necessarily in it for the right reasons.
Ok, I'm done reading about different religions now. I've had enough. I just needed to rant a little bit and get that off my chest.
mitzi
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No, you are not alone...my hinky meter has been humming everytime I see the pastor quoted...and he has had alot to say. Where are the comments from the Father's side of the family...you know, the family that they moved to be near. Haven't read any...just pastor and one neighbor.
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