IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[Kaliste]

THANK YOU! I've had a lot of problems with the widespread assumption that she killed her children but there is some aversion on the part of the majority to contemplate the possibility that she didn't do this. The information out there is pretty consistent, so why are people so ready to say this mom is the one who did this?

Our minds try to find logic in illogical situations. A mom and 2 children found in a neighborhood parks creek in broad daylight is pretty darn bizarre. It's common here to come up with theories, hash out the facts and fill in the blanks with our own thoughts then discuss and get feedback. Moms COD has yet to be released so its too early for me to get on board with any theory right now.

I am a bit confused on the 7-730am confirmed sighting of Jamie and the kids. Who saw them and where? It should be easy to confirm dads alibi, shouldn't it? Does he have to clock in/out? Are there cameras or multiple co-workers that can vouch for him? If he clocks in at 5am (just assuming based on him leaving at 4:50am and working 12 hr shifts) and out at 5pm...surely he wasn't able to duck out of work unnoticed sometime after 730am and kill/undress 3 people at the park near his home.

 

[FragileSugar]

It shouldn't be difficult to analyze the water in their lungs and compare it to the creek water. They were pretty specific saying that there was water in their lungs and they drowned in the creek. Another thing from the presser is he stated that it was confirmed and verified that they were last seen at 7-7:30 that morning. I believe verified was the word he used or something like that. He was adamant about it though and it made me wonder if they have them on video?

eta: I'm going to take back what I said about them drowning in the creek until I find the source of that information. It makes a difference where it came from.

BBM: Why do I have a feeling the press loving pastor will be the one who will back up the 7-7:30 sighting?

From another article:

Part of the family's motivation for moving to Indiana, where members of Michael's family also lives, was their desire to be part of Greater Faith Church, Nichols said. They would pray together in the sanctuary daily and usually attended two services on Sundays.

Any idea on the church hours? Their website isn't coming up for some reason. Was there a 7:00 am service?

 

[CALIORBUST]

it is a mouthful because i have been censored from my views locally! thank u so much! i was so relieve to find this site....i am not alone in my concerns relating to this tragedy. i like it that this sight has no room for anonymous folks to vote good or bad on my comments. thought-proviking, intelligent discourse instead of censorship...thank u! people don't usually agree, but that is no reason to silence those who hold a different view.

Althea, are you local as well...to this crime? I agree on your first post on here...fully! Time will tell.

 

[CALIORBUST]

Hi all, I was checking out Binford park on google maps in relation to where the apartment complex is and came across something I find a bit odd. Looking at Binford on google if you widen the view a little or scroll a bit to the left Floyd Memorial Hospital complex is right there. It doesn't seem like it would be that much farther than the creek.

I point this out because if she was in some sort of distress, let's say PPP or PPD why not go to the hospital which is right there, instead of the park?

Moo

Yes, you are correct. The hospital, a GREAT hospital at that, is within 2-3 minutes from Sheffield...BY CAR! To walk there you would have to walk down Country Club Drive down to I believe it is Bono...and go left and then you are basically in the back side of the hospital parking lot. I would say close to a mile...doesn't sound far but no one...I highly doubt...walked anywhere on the 25-30 degree snowing day!

 

[CALIORBUST]

I FEEL YOUR PAIN!! I lived in the same building as Tara in Clarksville...and Richard Wooten happened 1 week after my kids and I moved out with our lease having ended. I had seen that man walking around the complex. So then I relocate...to where this poor victim lived and her kids...and one week or so after being there...this happens. I did not hear about the shooting in Clarksville...was that on the news? Ugh!! Crime is everywhere. I never thought of my specific area in Clarksville nor where I am now in New Albany to be "dangerous or bad" BUT WHEN IT'S SOOOOO CLOSE TO HOME....IT FEELS DIFFERENT VS. READING ABOUT A MURDER IN ANOTHER STATE, ETC..

thanx again, BeginnersLuck! they said, "he was cooperating", "was at work that day, not the park"...under investigation...he has not been ruled out as a suspect any more than the crime as been ruled a murder/suicide...however, having said my piece about him, i will refrain after one last question. it's ok to speculate that Jaime is a murderer but not her husband? sorry! i am done...i just do not agree. she is the victim. i have birthed babies & helped people die....had loved ones murdered...given my life to the service of others as an RN, but i can not wrap my head, objectively, nor my heart, subjectively around this case, for so many intrinsic reasons...forgive me. i am so grateful to have found an outlet for these issues that have been gnawing at me since the bodies were found. it was so cold that day...w/ naked babies in the creek....a week after Tara Willenborg's horrific death at the hands of a sexual predator...2 weeks after Lisa McQuirt, mother of 5, was shot 4 times at point blank range about 20 feet in front of my son & grandaughters house, both in Clarksville, which neighbors New Albany, Indiana...so please, again, forgive me for breaking any forum rules...( i thot i read them!!!)

 

[Trident]

there would be no post-mortem finding that could conclusively identify PPD....ALL post-partum autopsy findings would show the same concentration of hormones. i believe it to be similar to why some people become addicts, while others don't; bi-polar people have the same nuerotransmitters as everyone else; fetal alcohol syndrome can happen with minimal alcohol consumtion in some women...u know, we have the same stuff, just some of in acts/reacts differently in certain individuals. PPD is diagnosed only by syptoms manifested. she had none. PPD is a psychological disorder that is triggered by pregnancy hormones, in some women...& we all know how hard it is to get into someone's head from a psych perspective=every one is different. thought-provoking question. i suspect tox will provide little more enlightenment than, that a pharmacuetical was found common to all three. i would think forensic lab work could ID bacteria, organisms, ect. found in the babies lungs as the water from the creek versus bathtub?

althea, I think I love you, and I don't ever say that. You are a truth speaker.

 

[Jade]

It makes no difference if they could quote the Bible in its entirety they would still have it in hand.

As a Pentecostal it is an accessory often dressed up in a personalized cover ready to be waved in the air or opened to a relevant page as their every moment is an evangelical moment.

It would be unusual for them to not have it with them, imo.

This is of interest considering the son was starting to preach.

Note #4 in the link below:

4. Pentecostal preaching is punctuated with the supernatural and the unusual.

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Tools_of_the_Trade/20070914_03_What_Is_Pent_Preach.cfm

Pentecost also believe in immersion baptism in living waters [running water symbolic of life]:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_baptism"]Immersion baptism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The taking up of serpents is a rare offshoot PentecostalHoliness

This section of the snake-handling churches is non-Trinitarian, and is broadly known as the Church of Lord Jesus with Signs Following. This version dominates snake-handling churches north of the Appalachians

IF it was suicide I’m not sure that any of this makes any difference as it is the great equalizer-it can affect any family under any circumstances.

You have to know something is wrong to ask for help… and signs are hard to discern if the person has their goal and feels righteous about it…she could have had these thoughts for her lifetime for all we know and it have nothing to do with her pregnancy maybe she got the sign that it was time, in her mind I mean.

All IMO

 

[time]

Per immersion baptism, I'm not sure that a shallow creek/water would actually be considered for this. Was she Pentecostal? Don't they believe in total immersion. When I was young, my brother was baptized by immersion (a religion that is not even mentioned on the Wiki page). It was total immersion. I don't think that church would recognize immersing in 18" of water as any form of baptism.

 

[Jade]

Per immersion baptism, I'm not sure that a shallow creek/water would actually be considered for this. Was she Pentecostal? Don't they believe in total immersion. When I was young, my brother was baptized by immersion (a religion that is not even mentioned on the Wiki page). It was total immersion. I don't think that church would recognize immersing in 18" of water as any form of baptism.

And certainly they don’t drown folks during immersion baptism!

I was looking for a connection to a creek and thought that the “living water” was perhaps symbolic.

Here deep in the Bible belt larger creeks are regularly used in warm weather for baptisms but they are, as you say, much more appropriate in size for a full immersion.


all imo

 

[MsFacetious]

When do they baptize?
18 inches of water would be plenty for a 6 month old baby, if she was the only one who needed it.

 

[time]

And certainly they don’t drown folks during immersion baptism!

I was looking for a connection to a creek and thought that the “living water” was perhaps symbolic.

Here deep in the Bible belt larger creeks are regularly used in warm weather for baptisms but they are, as you say, much more appropriate in size for a full immersion.


all imo

We agree! I think the water could (said hesitantly in this case) be symbolic, but I don't believe it is related to any baptism. People take their baptism rituals seriously! I think many churches would perform immersion Baptisms outside if they could or if they were purists... otherwise, I think they are ok with a tank inside the church.

 

[Reader]

We agree! I think the water could (said hesitantly in this case) be symbolic, but I don't believe it is related to any baptism. People take their baptism rituals seriously! I think many churches would perform immersion Baptisms outside if they could or if they were purists... otherwise, I think they are ok with a tank inside the church.

And wouldn't the baptism need to be done by the pastor? I don't think she would take it upon herself to baptise the children...she wouldn't have the authority, per church rituals...IMO

 

[JaimeSommers]

thanx again, BeginnersLuck! they said, "he was cooperating", "was at work that day, not the park"...under investigation...he has not been ruled out as a suspect any more than the crime as been ruled a murder/suicide...however, having said my piece about him, i will refrain after one last question. it's ok to speculate that Jaime is a murderer but not her husband? sorry! i am done...i just do not agree. she is the victim. i have birthed babies & helped people die....had loved ones murdered...given my life to the service of others as an RN, but i can not wrap my head, objectively, nor my heart, subjectively around this case, for so many intrinsic reasons...forgive me. i am so grateful to have found an outlet for these issues that have been gnawing at me since the bodies were found. it was so cold that day...w/ naked babies in the creek....a week after Tara Willenborg's horrific death at the hands of a sexual predator...2 weeks after Lisa McQuirt, mother of 5, was shot 4 times at point blank range about 20 feet in front of my son & grandaughters house, both in Clarksville, which neighbors New Albany, Indiana...so please, again, forgive me for breaking any forum rules...( i thot i read them!!!)

BBM ... I can't "thank" this post enough, Althea. The PPP/PPD discussion is/was extremely interesting, educational, and important -- but sprinkled in a handful of those posts were definitive statements stating that this is what happened with Mrs. Clutter. It is such an emotionally charged issue -- and has touched so many here (including me) -- that it's difficult to stick your neck out and say that lines may have been crossed during the discussion in some (not all) cases.

It's difficult to maintain objectivity when it comes to the death of children; a close childhood friend of mine drowned her infant son in the tub as a result of PPP and is serving a life sentence. Gutting. But if boundaries are going to be maintained/enforced regarding Mr. Clutter, they should be maintained/enforced regarding Mrs. Clutter as well, until more facts are known. IMO totally.

By chance, are you going through the process of getting verified as an insider on this case? From your comments, it sounds like you might have a connection in some way.

 

[time]

And wouldn't the baptism need to be done by the pastor? I don't think she would take it upon herself to baptise the children...she wouldn't have the authority, per church rituals...IMO

Good question, I don't know. There are also age considerations, but if they baptize young ones, then wouldn't one or both of the kids already be baptized as well as mom. And, I'm not sure but her religion may not baptize young children.

If she was Pentecostal, this might apply (but I don't even pretend to know what others beliefs really are so if anyone knows please comment and correct me if needed):

The United Pentecostal Church teaches that in the act of baptism a person's sins are remitted or washed away and therefore baptism is essential in order to be saved. In addition, they teach that:
--- baptism must be by full water immersion
--- the name of Jesus must be spoken in baptism
The omission of either of these would result in the believer being lost.

 

[Bipolar Express]

Per immersion baptism, I'm not sure that a shallow creek/water would actually be considered for this. Was she Pentecostal? Don't they believe in total immersion. When I was young, my brother was baptized by immersion (a religion that is not even mentioned on the Wiki page). It was total immersion. I don't think that church would recognize immersing in 18" of water as any form of baptism.

You are right. This would not count as immersion baptism.

 

[Bipolar Express]

Total submersion.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I was thinking about this case today driving to the market, I could barely contain my tears as I thought about my little babies. I can't imagine drowning them and not helping them as they are struggling for air, reaching for mommy as she holds them under. honestly I don't think that is what happened, I really don't. Maybe because I can't fathom doing it.

Also, is anyone else having problems reading the pink font? Maybe it's just my device but it is painful to read. I've honestly had to skip right over those posts and I'm curious as to what they say.

 

[Bipolar Express]

I was thinking about this case today driving to the market, I could barely contain my tears as I thought about my little babies. I can't imagine drowning them and not helping them as they are struggling for air, reaching for mommy as she holds them under. honestly I don't think that is what happened, I really don't. Maybe because I can't fathom doing it.

Also, is anyone else having problems reading the pink font? Maybe it's just my device but it is painful to read. I've honestly had to skip right over those posts and I'm curious as to what they say.

I agree. I don't think it was suicide either. Too hard to resist the self preservation that would kick in when your only in 6 inches of water.

 

[Bipolar Express]

..., or 12 inches.

 

[althea33161]

Welcome althea.

:welcome6:

Clearly you are frustrated, as we all are. Innocent lives have been lost, no matter whether it was murder/suicide or 'simply' murder.

I have a couple of questions for you though.
1) You stated that they had no jackets.
2) you mentioned that the dad asked for the apartment deposit back

I haven't had a chance to follow everything in detail on this case, but I was wondering if you could point me to where these points were mentioned in the media or by law enforcement.

Thanks very much.

These are local statements, not public, from sources close to the case and/or the manager of the apartment complex....this info was shared on local, WDRB news website, where every comment stream on this case has been DELETED!:banghead: