IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[fred&edna]

So the investigators are giving Michael lots of different theories and stories, but the coroner isn't.

That is interesting. With Michael being so adamant that it wasn't a murder/suicide, and obviously being in so much grief and pain (to me), I wonder if he might be hearing what he wants to hear. For example, a compassionate officer saying "Well maybe it wasn't murder/suicide, Mr Clutter. Maybe this other thing happened. Let's just wait for the coroner's final ruling." Then Michael calls the coroner who says, "I'm sorry, Mr. Clutter, but I'm really not expecting the tox reports to tell us anything different than I've already told you."

Just some thoughts. :twocents:

BBM I completely understand that could be the case. But, I've been trying to "guess" what this other thing might be and can't quite come up with any scenarios. Especially, since LE has said there isn't a killer out there (paraphrasing).

Just to clarify I'm not taking sides regarding MC's guilt or innocence... just trying to figure out what possible "stories" MC's mom has been hearing.

 

[The Cheese]

BBM I completely understand that could be the case. But, I've been trying to "guess" what this other thing might be and can't quite come up with any scenarios. Especially, since LE has said there isn't a killer out there (paraphrasing).

Just to clarify I'm not taking sides regarding MC's guilt or innocence... just trying to figure out what possible "stories" MC's mom has been hearing.

Yes, no killer on the loose, no need for the community to worry. The 'other thing', to me, would be a tragic accident, like hypothermia leading to drowning.

Whatever happened is very, very sad.

:twocents:

 

[fred&edna]

Yes, no killer on the loose, no need for the community to worry. The 'other thing', to me, would be a tragic accident, like hypothermia leading to drowning.

Whatever happened is very, very sad.

:twocents:

Oh yeah, the paradoxical undressing theory. I dismissed it in my mind, but yep... that's a theory

 

[txsvicki]

I guess the police looked through the home, the woman's Bible, and computer if they had one. I don't find it odd if they were going to church daily to see a series of prophecy films, but if it was all the time, yes. The really hinky thing is the husband saying that odd things had been happening atound the apartment, which could be true, not true, he thinks it's true, or she could have told him that. If police think there is no lunatic on the loose then that might rule out the true option.

 

[mysteriew]

Calling with theories seems like a flag of some kind to me, but who knows.

Well it is a good flag that they aren't comfortable with the murder/suicide theory.

 

[mrsu]

Calling with theories seems like a flag of some kind to me, but who knows.

Maybe they are hoping he changes his story?

 

[mrsu]

I guess the police looked through the home, the woman's Bible, and computer if they had one. I don't find it odd if they were going to church daily to see a series of prophecy films, but if it was all the time, yes. The really hinky thing is the husband saying that odd things had been happening atound the apartment, which could be true, not true, he thinks it's true, or she could have told him that. If police think there is no lunatic on the loose then that might rule out the true option.

Huh? What is this about? I don't remember reading this previously.

 

[The Cheese]

Huh? What is this about? I don't remember reading this previously.

Pastor: Husband saw "odd things" near Ind. apartment where woman, two children were found dead

The family pastor for a southern Indiana woman found dead alongside her two children in a creek says the woman and her husband had seen "odd" and unexplainable things happen around their apartment complex during the time they lived there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ent-where-woman-two-children-were-found-dead/

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130404/NEWS/130409762

Knable said she is still awaiting the results of toxicology tests, but because it's difficult to determine death by drowning, it's possible the causes of death for all three may be listed as undetermined. Knable, who said she should close her investigation in about a week, told The Courier-Journal of Louisville, Ky., that she expects the causes of death for the children and for Jamie Clutter will be the same.

If the coroner rules the cause of deaths as undetermined it basically means there was not enough evidence to say that it was definitely a suicide, homicide or accident. Any additional evidence that is obtained in the future could then change the cause of death.

Here is a very interesting and informative article that gives some explanation to a cause of death being ruled undetermined and how a psychological autopsy investigation can help to determine a cause of death. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/psych_autopsy/index.html

 

[txsvicki]

Seeing odd and unexplainable things is really weird if the preacher reported both husband and wife saw them. I'll bet police have really questioned the preacher about just who said what.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

So it sounds like MC is living in Portland with his mom ?? and the preacher isn't talking anymore ??

I wonder what caused the preacher to clam up?

 

[itsashame]

It seems strange, if she was religious for her to commit suicide, not that it doesn't happen. Also if I'm understanding correctly the police called it a homicide originally? Something must have led them to say that, right? I am also interested in if they can determine if the mom and children actually drowned in that stream.

 

[cluciano63]

It seems strange, if she was religious for her to commit suicide, not that it doesn't happen. Also if I'm understanding correctly the police called it a homicide originally? Something must have led them to say that, right? I am also interested in if they can determine if the mom and children actually drowned in that stream.

Well for the children it is homicide, no matter what, Imo. I am sure they did not choose to die in a creek. Unless all three were accidental, which seems unlikely. I think the mystery is how Mom died.

 

[itsashame]

Well for the children it is homicide, no matter what, Imo. I am sure they did not choose to die in a creek. Unless all three were accidental, which seems unlikely. I think the mystery is how Mom died.

yes agreed. The family moves from Washington to be closer to his family, but I am curious what, if anything Jamie's family has to say about their deaths? Anyone have anything out there from her family?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

It doesn't make much sense to me, that they moved there to be closer to his family. His family was still 3-4 hours from where they lived. He was out of work for over a year and then moved all the way there to take a low wage job? Leaving their nice home and her family behind right after she had a new baby? Then her and the kids end up dead less than three months later. The main draw to that area seems to have been the church. What was it about that church?

 

[katydid23]

It doesn't make much sense to me, that they moved there to be closer to his family. His family was still 3-4 hours from where they lived. He was out of work for over a year and then moved all the way there to take a low wage job? Leaving their nice home and her family behind right after she had a new baby? Then her and the kids end up dead less than three months later. The main draw to that area seems to have been the church. What was it about that church?

I am not sure which article it was in, but IIRC, the family went to the church to pray every single day, and TWICE on Sunday. That feels a bit excessive. I am not criticizing anyone's religion, we have free expression of our religious beliefs. I just wonder if that is not a bit overboard as it places so much emphasis upon one's responsibility to their church, in possible detriment to any other parts of one's life. It just feels a bit out of whack, imo.

 

[nothingnew]

So it sounds like MC is living in Portland with his mom ?? and the preacher isn't talking anymore ??

I wonder what caused the preacher to clam up?

Have you read all of the comments about the husband and the preacher? I can see no benefit to anyone for him to speak anymore with media. I seriously doubt he has stopped being available to investigators though. jmo

 

[The Cheese]

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130404/NEWS/130409762



If the coroner rules the cause of deaths as undetermined it basically means there was not enough evidence to say that it was definitely a suicide, homicide or accident. Any additional evidence that is obtained in the future could then change the cause of death.

Here is a very interesting and informative article that gives some explanation to a cause of death being ruled undetermined and how a psychological autopsy investigation can help to determine a cause of death. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/psych_autopsy/index.html

BBM I don't think that's so, BeginnersLuck. I think undetermined or unknown COD means the coroner was unable to say for sure what physically caused the person's death (drowning, suffocation, heart attack, etc etc etc).

Everybody gets both a COD and a MOD on their death certificate. Suicide, homicide, accident, natural, etc are MOD, not COD.

Coroners can find MOD without determining COD. Caylee Anthony is an example.

 

[The Cheese]

It seems strange, if she was religious for her to commit suicide, not that it doesn't happen. Also if I'm understanding correctly the police called it a homicide originally? Something must have led them to say that, right? I am also interested in if they can determine if the mom and children actually drowned in that stream.

They didn't call it a homicide. They said they were treating the investigation as a homicide investigation. As cluciano said above, the children, especially the baby, didn't take off their clothes and accidentally fall in the creek, or commit suicide. :twocents:

 

[cindysue]

It doesn't make much sense to me, . The main draw to that area seems to have been the church. What was it about that church?

Maybe they did move just to be close to the church, I'm curious if they knew people from the church before they moved.