IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[marycarney]

EXCELLENT post - and I agree.

So Michael is a little 'strange'? So they're Pentecostal? SO WHAT?

I'm sure that if this tragedy was visited upon any of our families, people would find 'suspicious behavior' in the responses of many of us. '

Being weird does not equal being evil / guilty / the 'reason' for the act.

 

[The Cheese]

Man, I wish there was some movement on this case...............

On April 4, the coroner said she'd be closing her investigation in about a week.

The coroner said she expects to hold a final meeting with the Kentucky medical examiner’s staff and close her investigation in about a week.

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...new-developments-Clutter-death-investigations

I've been searching for news daily since April 11, but nothing yet. I'm hoping there will be something this week.

 

[michmi]

Asking why ML would bury his entire family in a town where they only had a relationship with a pastor and then leave town is not "victim-bashing".

Asking why anyone goes to church every single day is not "bigotry".

 

[The Cheese]

I have been studying Filicide in the academic world for almost a decade.

If I could figure out how to upload some pdf journal articles, I would. A really good one is, "Identifying CLients at risk for Filicide-Suicide" by Bruce Gross in Annals of the American Psychotherapy Association. Another one with in insight would be "An Exploratory Analysis of the Contexts and Circumstances of Filicide-Suicide in Chicago,1965–1994" by Todd Shackleford in the journal Aggressive Behavior.

Unfortunately, if this was a filicide-suicide (which I do believe it is, but am certainly willing to be convinced otherwises), it is almost textbook.
From all the MM reports I have read, which is all linked in this forum and that I could locate on my own, sadly, it's as if someone checked all the boxes in regards to this mother and her poor children. The only thing about this event that would be considered "out of the norm" is that little Brandon was over the age of seven.

I do not believe that being Pentacostal had anything to do with this crime, except as where it is shown that religious women who commit filicide are known to have associated hallucinations ie that they need to protect their children from Satan, Satan is in their children ect. I.e. Andrew Yates, Dena Schlosser, and Deanna Laney, to mention some well publicized cases that discuss this phenomenon. Drowning as a method of filicide is also fairly common. Suicide? Not as much, but certainly not unheard of.

I completely understand the communities reaction, at the desire to believe it was someone else. I'm sure Jaime was a wonderful women who loved her children, her husband, and God. That doesn't mean that she couldn't have done that, as its pretty well documented that loving those things does not preclude someone from mental illness or ppp. There are women who commit filicide-suicide who are screaming for help that they don't get, and there are also women that never give a single solitary hint until that fateful day.

What does bother me is how is the victim bashing. Michael is, by everything the police have said, NOT A SUSPECT. Yet his every action is being picked apart, which I think is terrible in a victim friendly website. Why he chose to stay in apartment, or move to Indiana, or pick his job, or his reaction to this unbelievable tragedy really is based on things we don't know, probably will never know, and are probably not in any way related to this case. If the police suspect another party of murder (which I haven't seen any indication of but once again will not be bothered to be proved wrong), it certainly doesn't appear to be Michael.

Also, the thinly veiled, and sometimes not so thinly veiled bigotry regarding the Pentacostal church is also unseemly. Did you know that 1 in 4 Christians identify themselves as Pentacostal? http://www.christianpost.com/news/s...spiritual-gifts-lack-theological-depth-44505/
There have been many posters who may have had a bad experience with a particular church that was Pentacostal, or had a neighbor or lived in a town with them (?!), but in disparaging any religion, and offending so many readers and potential websleuths I think it makes us all look bad No church makes women murder their children and then themselves..so I think the Pentacostal bashing should stop.

This is all IMO and not directed at anyone at all.

:goodpost:

Excellent post. Thank you for posting it. The bashing of Michael in light of LE saying there is no killer on the loose and no need for the community to worry is of concern to me also.

 

[wfgodot]

Gosh, I buried my parents, grandmother, and aunt in a town I never plan to live in, one they'd been in less than ten years before dying. It's neither rare nor symptomatic, necessarily, of not caring. And it's costly for some who can't afford it to pay for bodies to be transported elsewhere.

 

[mysteriew]

:goodpost:

Excellent post. Thank you for posting it. The bashing of Michael in light of LE saying there is no killer on the loose and no need for the community to worry is of concern to me also.

Actually that is a pretty standard LE response when they believe they know who the killer is, but don't have enough evidence to charge the person (or that person is not available to charge.) And if they don't have enough to charge, they aren't going to name the suspect.

It doesn't tell us who they think it is, it just tells us the community doesn't have anything to fear as they don't believe the suspect will harm anyone else.

 

[wfgodot]

In my experience, LE saying the community is not at risk has been always, or almost always, because the killer is dead.

 

[The Cheese]

In my experience, LE saying the community is not at risk has been always, or almost always, because the killer is dead.

I think it sometimes means other things, but them saying no killer is on the loose, to me, means the perpetrator is deceased.

 

[fred&edna]

I've always leaned toward murder/suicide. But, I am puzzled about suicide by drowning in such shallow water... it seems so difficult. Seems the tox report would have to show something.

 

[wfgodot]

I do not believe that being Pentacostal had anything to do with this crime, except as where it is shown that religious women who commit filicide are known to have associated hallucinations ie that they need to protect their children from Satan, Satan is in their children ect. I.e. Andrew Yates, Dena Schlosser, and Deanna Laney, to mention some well publicized cases that discuss this phenomenon.

snip

Opinion respected, yet the three women you mention here also had association with Pentecostal-believing/charismatic religions - Yates (via Michael Peter Woroniecki, and also the Quiverfull movement), Schlosser (Water of Life Church), and Laney (Assemblies of God). Whether or not their deeds were directly or indirectly influenced by this exposure is debatable, of course.

 

[oceanblue]

I've always leaned toward murder/suicide. But, I am puzzled about suicide by drowning in such shallow water... it seems so difficult. Seems the tox report would have to show something.

I think that if JC was kneeling in that shallow water long enough to drown two children, it would not take long for shock to set in. Given the very cool air and water temps, I don't think it would be difficult to surmise that her losing consciousness due to shock would then cause her to drown rather quickly.

moo

 

[fred&edna]

I think that if JC was kneeling in that shallow water long enough to drown two children, it would not take long for shock to set in. Given the very cool air and water temps, I don't think it would be difficult to surmise that her losing consciousness due to shock would then cause her to drown rather quickly.

moo

Shock definitely could have been a factor. I've been reading more about hypothermia (again) here:

http://beyondcoldwaterbootcamp.com/en/4-phases-of-cold-water-immersion

"While it varies with water temperature and body mass, it can take 30 minutes or more for most adults to become even mildly hypothermic in ice water."

Would it have taken thirty minutes? I don't know. I do know it is surely an awful thing to think about.

If her toxicology screen is negative then it seems she was relying on hypothermia and shock for her suicide to be successful. (How would she know for certain that's what would happen?)

(jmo/and still just wondering)

 

[lindugh]

Was hoping we would have heard something by now. Hopefully this week.

 

[otto]

Yes, I was showing Mr. Pink from MSM interviews and then comparing that to pictures and video from the funeral of a gentleman that may be Mr. Pink.

Sorry for any confusion.

Does that mean that Mr Pink is dead?

How does Mr Pink relate to a woman that supposedly committed suicide in 8-12 inches of water ... apparently over-riding all innate survival instinct responses?

 

[otto]

This whole situation seems pretty weird. A woman and her two children are seen or heard from at at 7:30 AM. They are found later that day naked and face down in a puddle ... murder of the two children by the mother and suicide by puddle from the mother.

What about this doesn't make sense?

 

[otto]

I think that there is a mistaken belief that the person that is whacko nuts enough to abduct and murder two children is identifiable. The sad thing is, he is not. We cannot look at people and recognize that he or she is the type of person that would steal from us, betray close friends, and abduct two children and murder them on a Friday afternoon, show up for happy hour Friday ... could be anyone.

 

[cindysue]

I understand murder/suicide, but why nakkid, why a park, why a shallow creek. Just to odd. That's the part that doesn't fit IMO.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Does that mean that Mr Pink is dead?

How does Mr Pink relate to a woman that supposedly committed suicide in 8-12 inches of water ... apparently over-riding all innate survival instinct responses?

Mr. Pink is Jaime's father. The discussion was about whether her parents were able to attend the funeral. There was a gentleman in some of the funeral photos that resembled him but it is unknown if he was actually there.

I as well think this would be a very odd murder suicide, if that is how they end up ruling it.

 

[sophiebelle]

I understand murder/suicide, but why nakkid, why a park, why a shallow creek. Just to odd. That's the part that doesn't fit IMO.

I think when or if someone is suicidal, all reasoning leaves them. My cousin lost her beloved daughter to breast cancer at age 32. My cousin was so distraught, and hurt, and was scheduled for therapy. Her husband (not daughter's dad), couldn't deal with her behaviors and hung himself in the garage in their garage. She found him when she drove in. His note said he was helpless to make things better. Yet he tortured her even further! No rational thought I suppose?

 

[fred&edna]

I feel sure this link was posted previously but I thought I'd post it again, only because it states that although they haven't ruled out murder/suicide, the deaths are being investigated as murder.

"... police have said there is no evidence of foul play, but detectives are investigating the deaths as murders."

http://www.wthr.com/story/21641414/police-releasing-few-details-on-three-bodies-found-in-new-albany