IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[time]

I'm still convinced this is another sad case of PPD/PPP murder/suicide. I think Michael is having a very hard time reconciling it, and is pressuring the DA, and the DA is now pressuring the PD to wrap it up.

Looks like there was some pre-existing conflict or tension between the DA and the PD, for the DA to come out as he did yesterday.

I don't think this will go to a grand jury. The tox reports are now moving where they need to go. The PD is on notice that they need to wrap it up. The DA will issue a report before too long.

:cow:

Have you ever explained or answered my questions above about the logistics of it all. I still think it's nearly improbable. No drugs means even more improbable in my mind.

We are not talking about someone strapping kids into a car and driving into a lake or someone taking the hand of two children who cannot swim and guiding them into deep water. We are not even talking about a chilly Spring morning, but fairly severe weather. And this was not close to their house. And, it was not exactly a private area since people who lived nearby could have seen something.... especially since it would take a while to walk there then individually disrobe and drown three people even if one is drowning herself.

I have doubts MC did something, IDK, but I am not trusting this LE so much on looking into this.

I think PPP is just too convenient of an answer in this case and there is no proof that is what is it. If hubby is concerned this should be a murder investigation then there is no reason he would lie about her having psychological/extreme stress issues and I do not think PPP just arose that morning rearing it's ugly head.

 

[fred&edna]

Have you ever explained or answered my questions above about the logistics of it all. I still think it's nearly improbable. No drugs means even more improbable in my mind.

We are not talking about someone strapping kids into a car and driving into a lake or someone taking the hand of two children who cannot swim and guiding them into deep water. We are not even talking about a chilly Spring morning, but fairly severe weather. And this was not close to their house. And, it was not exactly a private area since people who lived nearby could have seen something.... especially since it would take a while to walk there then individually disrobe and drown three people even if one is drowning herself.

I have doubts MC did something, IDK, but I am not trusting this LE so much on looking into this.

I think PPP is just too convenient of an answer in this case and there is no proof that is what is it. If hubby is concerned this should be a murder investigation then there is no reason he would lie about her having psychological/extreme stress issues and I do not think PPP just arose that morning rearing it's ugly head.

I share your concerns, time... simply because relying on shock and hypothermia in approximately 1 foot of water to commit suicide (& murder) just doesn't seem like a plan. I've never heard of anyone hoping hypothermia will kill them... or maybe the next theory is that she didn't intend to die?

 

[seattlechiquita]

I share your concerns, time... simply because relying on shock and hypothermia in approximately 1 foot of water to commit suicide (& murder) just doesn't seem like a plan. I've never heard of anyone hoping hypothermia will kill them... or maybe the next theory is that she didn't intend to die?

Ditto. I am not buying the whole murder-suicide scenario. I simply can't.

 

[The Cheese]

Have you ever explained or answered my questions above about the logistics of it all. I still think it's nearly improbable. No drugs means even more improbable in my mind.

We are not talking about someone strapping kids into a car and driving into a lake or someone taking the hand of two children who cannot swim and guiding them into deep water. We are not even talking about a chilly Spring morning, but fairly severe weather. And this was not close to their house. And, it was not exactly a private area since people who lived nearby could have seen something.... especially since it would take a while to walk there then individually disrobe and drown three people even if one is drowning herself.

I have doubts MC did something, IDK, but I am not trusting this LE so much on looking into this.

I think PPP is just too convenient of an answer in this case and there is no proof that is what is it. If hubby is concerned this should be a murder investigation then there is no reason he would lie about her having psychological/extreme stress issues and I do not think PPP just arose that morning rearing it's ugly head.

BBM. I don't recall if I've responded to any of your posts or not, time. I'm sorry. I follow a lot of cases, post in a lot of threads, and just can't keep track of whose posts I've responded to. I do try to respond to all posts addressed to me though. If I missed any, I apologize.

 

[mysteriew]

Are they saying there are no drugs in the stomachs or blood stream that contributed to the deaths?

It's worded kind of hinky. Like the answers to the death won't lie in the autopsy. So I think all she is saying is that there was no overdoses.

That doesn't mean there were some drugs in the system.

So I just don't know

 

[mysteriew]

I have been off this site for a week now, no activity on this local neighborhood crime to where I live. So I am half in and half out of sleep last night and I open my eyes and there on the news is MC!! Talking about the police asking him if he has weapons, and Chinese THROWING STARS!! I was like WTF!! Well, hopping on our local news sites www.wlky.com, www.whas11.com and www.wdrb.com sure enough they are calling for a grand jury now on this case and hope to finally get some answers. I am totally unfamilir with all this legal stuff. How does a grand jury work and what does that mean? I was groggy but MC looked like crap in my opinion. I am glad this is now being pushed for answers. I won't knock the New Albany, IN police...I live here..this case is unlike anything have seen before if I read correctly...but I will say....I hope LE can work with higher ups and let's get some damn answers!!!!!!

The Grand Jury can vary some from state to state.

But basically they are a group of persons brought together by the prosecutor to hear the case. The prosecutor tells them what is known about the case, witnesses may be called to tell what they know. And the Grand Jury can then make a determination for an charge someone with a crime or to drop the case.

If the GJ recommends charges there still has to be a trial to determine guilt or innocence of the person charged.

There are a lot of rules for the GJ. Their proceedings are secret. Usually the persons who take the stand in the GJ cannot bring a lawyer while they are on the stand and their testimony is secret. Their testimony cannot be given to the court if there is a trial, unless they lie in court.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

wth? throwing stars? swords? Where is this coming from? It screams odd to me, even in this situation.

eta: I see where it is coming from - the punctures marks and bruises. But who would think throwing stars?

 

[time]

wth? throwing stars? swords? Where is this coming from? It screams odd to me, even in this situation.

eta: I see where it is coming from - the punctures marks and bruises. But who would think throwing stars?

That's why I wonder if they are messing with him. Maybe they think it's funny because he has raised questions about the injuries. Trying to throw it back his way. There is no reason to ask something like that if the injuries looked more like cuts from rocks. Or else the police are just inept good ole boys who don't give a rat's arse about this case.

 

[The Cheese]

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think LE questioned Michael the night the bodies were found. I think that's probably when they asked him the weapons question, based on what they'd visually observed of the bodies that day. Then after the autopsy results came back, there were the statements that the injuries were consistent with being in the water, that Michael wasn't a suspect, and that no killer was on the loose.

Just my opinion :cow:

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think LE questioned Michael the night the bodies were found. I think that's probably when they asked him the weapons question, based on what they'd visually observed of the bodies that day. Then after the autopsy results came back, there were the statements that the injuries were consistent with being in the water, that Michael wasn't a suspect, and that no killer was on the loose.

Just my opinion :cow:

yes, but why throwing stars in particular vs. knives, for example...

just another odd detail.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

My question is, was there enough water for her body to float, or enough current at that time to cause puncture marks or wounds on the body and if so, were there wounds only on the hands and possibly arms?

 

[The Cheese]

yes, but why throwing stars in particular vs. knives, for example...

just another odd detail.

They also asked about knives. I quoted and linked the article earlier today. Guns too, IIRC. Probably just a standard list of weapons they ask about to cover everything.

:cow:

ETA here it is

"They asked me if I had guns, Chinese throwing stars, a sword or a knives,"

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[time]

My question is, was there enough water for her body to float, or enough current at that time to cause puncture marks or wounds on the body and if so, were there wounds only on the hands and possibly arms?

I believe quite a while ago, a local said no. The creek is maybe 12 inches deep. Maybe up to 18 inches, but not enough to be submerged even

 

[time]

Southern Indiana police say the bodies of a woman and two children have been found in a shallow creek.

New Albany Police Department Maj. Keith Whitlow says someone walking through a park about 5:15 p.m. Wednesday spotted the bodies in Falling Run Creek. The creek is 12 to 18 inches deep.

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/crime/woman-2-children-found-dead-in-s-indiana-creek

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/crime/woman-2-children-found-dead-in-s-indiana-creek

I'm just not seeing hand wounds as a result of her being in the water.

 

[The Cheese]

On Google Books there's a book called Introduction to Criminal Investigation
edited by Michael Lee Birzer, Cliff Roberson. Page 231 at the bottom starts a section on Water Death. On page 232 it talks about abrasions and lacerations. You can't copy paste so I'll just paraphrase. It says they may be present, but are likely underwater injuries. It lists parts of the body where they're natural, and the parts include fingers and hands.

Here's the link. Hopefully it will take to the page. I haven't linked from Google Books before so I don't know if it will work.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eg...accidental drowning hands lacerations&f=false

 

[katydid23]

On Google Books there's a book called Introduction to Criminal Investigation
edited by Michael Lee Birzer, Cliff Roberson. Page 231 at the bottom starts a section on Water Death. On page 232 it talks about abrasions and lacerations. You can't copy paste so I'll just paraphrase. It says they may be present, but are likely underwater injuries. It lists parts of the body where they're natural, and the parts include fingers and hands.

Here's the link. Hopefully it will take to the page. I haven't linked from Google Books before so I don't know if it will work.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eg...accidental drowning hands lacerations&f=false

I have heard of cuts and abrasions on drowning victims from rivers and streams before. But I have always thought it happened when they bounced around underwater, being thrashed around.

But how does that happen in 18 inch deep water?

 

[The Cheese]

I have heard of cuts and abrasions on drowning victims from rivers and streams before. But I have always thought it happened when they bounced around underwater, being thrashed around.

But how does that happen in 18 inch deep water?

This talks about the softening of skin on the hands, and cadaveric spasm, which combined, I would think could lead to lacerations or abrasions on the hands when the hands hit rocks in the water, even shallow water.

It also talks about the lacerations to the same body parts as the Google Book above.

Legitimate postmortem injuries can occur to a body, especially around the head, face, knees, tops of the feet, and backs of the hands, although investigators should take care not to confuse these with defense wounds.

Warning - graphic autopsy and post mortem information at link.

Drowning investigations
Author: Haupt, Gary
Publication: The FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Drowning+investigations.-a0143342211

ETA - I'm not a medical person, but there was some discussion earlier with a nurse on here. I think MaryCarney is her name. Maybe we could ask her to come by and do more than guess, which is what I'm doing lol. I'm basically just taking the word of the coroner and prosecutor, and trying to figure out why the injuries occur.

 

[time]

I'm pretty sure in this case, they should be able to tell the difference. Also, they can usually tell if cuts are pre or postmortem.

 

[The Cheese]

Here's a link to the coroner's statement I was referring to in my post above:

Floyd County Coroner Leslie Knable said Friday that autopsy results showed they suffered injuries consistent with having been in water.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130315/NEWS02/303150034/Coroner-Mom-2-kids-found-creek-may-drowned

And I thought it was the prosecutor, but it was actually the police I was thinking of in this article:

Police gave him this explanation for his wife's injuries "that it was because of the environment but not life threatening."

Police told him some of her injuries might have been result of the rocky creek bed. Chief Knight says there's no indication weapons were involved.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22071495/mystery-still-shrouds-deaths-of-woman-children-found-in-creek