IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[concernedmother]

Unless the husband didnt know his wife very well and wasnt in tune to what she may have been feeling than he is right and that means a murderer out there.

 

[fred&edna]

Some weeks back I thought I read that investigators wanted to speak with individuals in Washington state about the deaths. Anyone remember this and/or have a link? I thought it puzzling as I'm sure they would have interviewed family (residing there) by that time.

*I'm not sure I lean towards cover-up as much as I think it was just "easier" for LE to consider it murder/suicide. (jmo)

 

[time]

Some weeks back I thought I read that investigators wanted to speak with individuals in Washington state about the deaths. Anyone remember this and/or have a link? I thought it puzzling as I'm sure they would have interviewed family (residing there) by that time.

*I'm not sure I lean towards cover-up as much as I think it was just "easier" for LE to consider it murder/suicide. (jmo)

I think that could be and with time it's become even more improbable this was a murder/suicide, now they are left with nothing. Although I tend to think they didn't do the hard investigative work (recreating the crime scene and such) that they should have from the get go. It seemed to me that the only possible way it was murder/suicide is if drugs/sedatives were involved. I really want to hear more about the eye witness(es) seeing her at 7-7:30 am and wondering why it's such a secret.

 

[concernedmother]

The only reason I can think of that its such top secret about who and where she was seen that morning is if she was with someone she shouldn't have been with or somewhere she shouldnt have been.(someone or somewhere her husband wouldnt have approved of) The last person to see her alive after her husband left was who? Thats usually pretty crucial information. Did someone ask to have their name kept out of it and why?

 

[concernedmother]

Another thing that bothers me is because they were found naked in the creek drowned doesnt mean thats where it happened. It seems unlikely considering the lack of water that all three people drowned there. Something is way off here folks and very likely that whole scene is a staged one.

 

[concernedmother]

What about a perp that thought they were a bunch of religious fanatics and thought they had been bible thumped by them and wanted revenge?

 

[time]

The only reason I can think of that its such top secret about who and where she was seen that morning is if she was with someone she shouldn't have been with or somewhere she shouldnt have been.(someone or somewhere her husband wouldnt have approved of) The last person to see her alive after her husband left was who? Thats usually pretty crucial information. Did someone ask to have their name kept out of it and why?

My first thought, I hate to say it, was that the minister claimed he saw them to alibi MC. That guy bothers me. Who knows maybe he saw her because she and the kids were at her house or he was at hers. Maybe it's unfair of me to say those things, just a gut feeling about that guy.

 

[concernedmother]

Unless they have told MC and asked him not to tell it almost seems like something they dont want MC to know about.

 

[time]

What about a perp that thought they were a bunch of religious fanatics and thought they had been bible thumped by them and wanted revenge?

I don't know about that, but the church does sure teach that almost every other church and belief system is wrong. Look up Irvin Baxter. I would be more inclined to suspect someone affiliated.

 

[time]

Unless they have told MC and asked him not to tell it almost seems like something they dont want MC to know about.

Good point, I wonder if he knows?

 

[concernedmother]

Sorry for all the posts but Im trying to run everything through my mind while its all coming to me. One thing I think is pretty common in all religions is the expectations placed on church leaders and models of the church. How often does a ministers wife just walk out and everyone is stunned because no one knew anything was wrong. Those people are the ones that we all call when we need help or prayer but who do they have to reach out to? Not very often does one just step out and confess they are depressed, about to lose it, feel overwhelmed, mountain of bills on their back weighing them down. We often forget and should pray for the leaders in our churches because we sometimes forget behind closed doors they are sometimes going through the very things that we call on them about and they dont feel they can reach out because they are supposed to be the strong ones and an example to the rest of the church. Maybe she had alot of inner tormoil that she didnt feel she could let anyone know about and was just there for everyone else with a smile when inside she could have been in alot of pain.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

What about a perp that thought they were a bunch of religious fanatics and thought they had been bible thumped by them and wanted revenge?

From the information we have been privy to, it sounds like if the Clutter's weren't at home, they were at church. So, IMO it's very important to look at who she may have encountered through her religion. Could someone have enticed her using religion? Could she have encountered someone through her religious endeavors that was mentally unstable, or for some reason specifically targeted her and the children. It seems unlikely that a random perp would target a mother and children. Maybe it was a neighbor?

Did someone create a story to get her and the children to leave the home in a hurry and this is why she didn't contact MC as he stated she always does if she leaves to go anywhere. This brings me back to confirmed sighting that morning and any surveillance video holding the clues. It's not surprising to me that they wouldn't release more details on the sighting if it's a big piece of the puzzle.

I agree, it seems more likely that the scene was staged at the river. I just can't picture it all happening there.

I'm just thinking about the possibility that there was tunnel vision from the get go in the investigation and they spent to much time concentrating on the murder/suicide theory. It as well was my initial thought, but thinking through the circumstances it became less likely to me that it was probable.

 

[concernedmother]

Im not ruling out MC but at this time I see no reason to throw him under the bus. He seems to be the only one vocal enough to keep trying to get them to investigate this.

 

[fred&edna]

From the information we have been privy to, it sounds like if the Clutter's weren't at home, they were at church. So, IMO it's very important to look at who she may have encountered through her religion. Could someone have enticed her using religion? Could she have encountered someone through her religious endeavors that was mentally unstable, or for some reason specifically targeted her and the children. It seems unlikely that a random perp would target a mother and children. Maybe it was a neighbor?

Did someone create a story to get her and the children to leave the home in a hurry and this is why she didn't contact MC as he stated she always does if she leaves to go anywhere. This brings me back to confirmed sighting that morning and any surveillance video holding the clues. It's not surprising to me that they wouldn't release more details on the sighting if it's a big piece of the puzzle.

I agree, it seems more likely that the scene was staged at the river. I just can't picture it all happening there.

I'm just thinking about the possibility that there was tunnel vision from the get go in the investigation and they spent to much time concentrating on the murder/suicide theory. It as well was my initial thought, but thinking through the circumstances it became less likely to me that it was probable.

Is the church within walking distance? I wonder if the park/creek is located between their apartment and the church? Hmmm... I wonder if a fellow church member picked them up that morning?

 

[coastal]

Another thing that bothers me is because they were found naked in the creek drowned doesnt mean thats where it happened. It seems unlikely considering the lack of water that all three people drowned there. Something is way off here folks and very likely that whole scene is a staged one.

I think they died elsewhere, or were incapacitated elsewhere, and then placed in the creek to drown. The weather that day was awful; I saw a news clip (somewhere related to this case :blushing that showed wind-driven snow howling around that little park. It would have been perfect cover for a bad guy. And even if Jamie suffered a psychotic break of some kind, suddenly, the boy didn't just strip himself naked and dive into that creek and drown himself because his mom said hey, lets do that.

I think they were murdered. May they rest in peace.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I was just walking around with the google maps guy by the entrance to the park and it gives a little bit of a different perspective. It appears there is a lot of land around there.

Why dump the bodies in the park if they were in a car unless it was to make a statement. The killer wanted them to be found and found naked. Did the killer/s force them to undress to humiliate them? It seems like it would take more than one person to accomplish drowning them all. Mom would be trying to protect her children so she may have cooperated with the perp/s but then when it got to the point of the drowning I don't understand how the perp (if only one) pulled it off.

I'm just babling. It's pretty much impossible to try and figure out what goes on in the mind of a killer, especially when you don't have all the information LE does and you don't have a suspect.

 

[concernedmother]

I think they died elsewhere, or were incapacitated elsewhere, and then placed in the creek to drown. The weather that day was awful; I saw a news clip (somewhere related to this case :blushing that showed wind-driven snow howling around that little park. It would have been perfect cover for a bad guy. And even if Jamie suffered a psychotic break of some kind, suddenly, the boy didn't just strip himself naked and dive into that creek and drown himself because his mom said hey, lets do that.

I think they were murdered. May they rest in peace.

I live about an hour from there and it was freezing. Not a day to walk anywhere and certainly you wouldn't take your kids to a park. I hope this case isnt blown to the side.

 

[time]

I don't want to get all creepy and far fetched and I'm sure there are some sweet, lovely people in the same church as the Clutters, however, the timing of Jamie and the kids death was right after the new Pope was chosen. I believe their religion closely followed the teachings of Irvin Baxter... someone who is always going on about how evil Catholics are and includes the election of the Pope as part of their prophecy. My head spins thinking about this, but who knows if someone who was mentally ill was hanging around and somehow translated all this into ....

Google
'minister Irvin Baxter catholics' or add 'Babylon Fallen"

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't want to get all creepy and far fetched and I'm sure there are some sweet, lovely people in the same church as the Clutters, however, the timing of Jamie and the kids death was right after the new Pope was chosen. I believe their religion closely followed the teachings of Irvin Baxter... someone who is always going on about how evil Catholics are and includes the election of the Pope as part of their prophecy. My head spins thinking about this, but who knows if someone who was mentally ill was hanging around and somehow translated all this into ....

Google
'minister Irvin Baxter catholics' or add 'Babylon Fallen"

I was reading some stuff last night, trying to find some kind of similar case or just any kind of clue that would possibly help give some insight into this crime scene and murder. I would like to watch those films but I'm not paying to do so. I'm thinking on the lines of someone attending these events that wasn't stable and became fixated on Jaime or the little boy or both. I wonder if they questioned people at the church that would have noticed such a person.

The other thought is someone that Jaime may have tried to share the gospel with that had some religious delusions. I can't forget the little boy as well because he was very outspoken.

 

[Bipolar Express]

Video interview w/Michael with this article

The police chief Sherri Knight says they have still not received the toxicology report, but were notified it was ready Wednesday afternoon. That occurred only after a WDRB News reporter called the coroner to confirm it was ready.

snipped

Clutter says he noticed deep cuts on his wife's hands, bruises on her arms and says police asked him specific questions about certain weapons.

"They asked me if I had guns, Chinese throwing stars, a sword or a knives," he said.

Police gave him this explanation for his wife's injuries "that it was because of the environment but not life threatening."

Police told him some of her injuries might have been result of the rocky creek bed. Chief Knight says there's no indication weapons were involved.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22071495/mystery-still-shrouds-deaths-of-woman-children-found-in-creek

The thing about the creek bed causing cuts bothers me. If the cuts were from the creek bed and rocks and this was indeed a murder-suicide, the cuts would have to be received post mortem because its silly to assume that as she was killing herself she struggled and cut herself. Nope. Can't have it both ways. Surely they can tell if the injuries were obtained post mortem. If they were NOT obtained post mortem, IMO, it's a sure sign this was NOT a suicide, but only if those wounds were not present prior to that awful day.