Intruder probability more, less, or same?

[MurriFlower]

It's not just that. Her own mother couldn't tell the difference.

My own Mother couldn't tell my writing either. That's not a crime or a reason to be suspected of committing one!!

 

[cynic]

So, while I agree with much of the analysis, there is no flexibility or allowance for people to change style. A person raised in the same era as Patsy could have very similar style. There was an obvious effort to disguise the writing.

That has been taken into consideration, and many exemplars of PR’s writing including a number of historical, unrehearsed writings were taken into custody. While it’s certainly true that even your writing may contain some elements similar to the RN, how many similarities would you consider reasonable before it strained the limits of chance, 10, 50, 100 similarities?
One document examiner (Cina Wong) found 243 similarities between PR’s exemplars and the RN.
… there are over 243 points of similarity between a sample of Patsy Ramsey's writings and the ransom note. "There are so many unique similarities between both writings."
http://www.cinawongforgeryexpert.com/mediaroom_dailypress.asp

What a tragedy if this just happened to 'look' like it was Patsy's writing!!

As I’ve said before, how many “coincidences” must there be before the Ramseys are no longer merely “unlucky,” but rather guilty?

 

[DeeDee249]

My own Mother couldn't tell my writing either. That's not a crime or a reason to be suspected of committing one!!

NO, but that is assuming you don't have a dead child in your basement. It isn't just ONE thing. It is all of it that point to the parents, if not committing it, at least knowing what happened. It isn't just Patsy's writing. It is her grammar, phrasing...inside info on the bonus amount, as well as phrasing that her mother Nedra always used, she always called JR a "fat cat". The use of periods between the acronyms at the end. S.B.T.C. -Patsy was known to do this though it isn't standard anymore. She always signed her personal correspondence with an acronym consisting of letters separated by periods at the end, just like the note.

And who is to say anyone calmly sat down and wrote it after the fact? It was anything but calmly written. I am sure they were in a panic, but adrenaline pumps up and we do what we have to in dire situations. In a way, it was an absolutely perfect example of a cover-up; an explanation for why the child would be later found dead (because they called police).

Anyone who assumes that parents couldn't have done this because they were, well, parents, is naive to use a gentler word for it. The news has always reported children murdered by parents. Patsy's money and Southern charm does not make her incapable. This case came to the world stage because of the parents' money, and the tiny beauty queen victim.
Had this been some inner-city minority child of drug using parents, you'd have it on the local news a day or two and that would be the end of it.
Doesn't mean it wasn't the parents because they are wealthy and white. And parents.

 

[cynic]

I think it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that either of the parents killed their own daughter (accidentally or on purpose), then calmly sat down and wrote such a note. It's equally absurd that an intruder wrote the note after killing the child. Nope - the note was definately written before (perhaps quite a while before).

I could not disagree more. I have heard of many instances of remarkable behavior subsequent to the most horrific crimes. Below are just two examples.

A woman stabbed her love rival to death then calmly drove to work as though nothing had happened, a court heard yesterday.
Karla Biddle, 32, attacked Emma Bradshaw at the home of the man both considered to be their boyfriend, the jury was told.
Miss Bradshaw stumbled out into the street and collapsed after banging on a neighbour's door for help.
Biddle allegedly then changed out of the nightclothes she had arrived in and headed to her office, where she sent a series of 'chatty' text messages and emails to cheating Ashley Watson in an attempt to create a false alibi.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1166139/Two-timed-lover-stabbed-rival-death-calmly-driving-work.html

A mother who surfed a dating website for men hours after smothering her three-year- old son to death was jailed for life yesterday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1082726/Mother-smothered-year-old-son-logging-dating-website-jailed-life.html

 

[BBB167893]

I think it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that either of the parents killed their own daughter (accidentally or on purpose), then calmly sat down and wrote such a note.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting there was anything CALM about it.

 

[MurriFlower]

Well, I can see this isn't really getting us anywhere! There are those who believe PR wrote the RN and therefore was involved and those who don't. We could go on with 'did', 'didn't' for ever! We need to move forward.

Can I get your co-operation to decide on the points where there is a general consensus?

1. The RN was written by a woman (this narrows it down to half the population anyway)
2. The RN was written by someone who was close to the family
3. JB's skull fracture occurred 'accidentally' - not a 'slip on a banana skin' type accident, but meaning that the head injury was unintentional or unplanned.
4. The strangulation occurred following the head injury.
5. Both the head injury and strangulation occurred in the basement.

That should give us a start, anyway......

 

[dodie20]

Let me explain something. I think Patsy killed JonBenet, but because of her histrionic personality, I find it hard to believe, (but not impossible), that she had the mental wherwithall, to compose that letter. If you accept that a scream from the basement, could be heard in the master bedroom, then it's likely that John got up, & discovered what was going on. If he turned on his 'cool-headed, businessy side', I can see him helping & dictating-maybe with the stipulation that Patsy had to actually write it, because 'it was her fault', & he wanted as little evidenciary involvement as possible. In other words, he was willing to help, but in reality, she was on her own. This would explain the separate lawyers. But, if John was the murderer & Patsy heard the scream, he may have insisted she write the letter, because she was ambidextrious. But it would still explain the separate lawyers. Somebody was on his/her own. I happen to think the murderer was Patsy, but I wasn't there, so I don't know. But even though I wasn't there, I am sure that the murderer was one of them-of that, I have no doubt. Also, if John was the murderer, & he had enough power to convince Patsy to write the note, then he would've had the power to insist on just one lawyer-to make himself look as innocent as possible. I don't think Patsy willed that kind of power.

 

[BBB167893]

Let me explain something. I think Patsy killed JonBenet, but because of her histrionic personality, I find it hard to believe, (but not impossible), that she had the mental wherwithall, to compose that letter. If you accept that a scream from the basement, could be heard in the master bedroom, then it's likely that John got up, & discovered what was going on. If he turned on his 'cool-headed, businessy side', I can see him helping & dictating-maybe with the stipulation that Patsy had to actually write it, because 'it was her fault', & he wanted as little evidenciary involvement as possible. In other words, he was willing to help, but in reality, she was on her own. This would explain the separate lawyers. But, if John was the murderer & Patsy heard the scream, he may have insisted she write the letter, because she was ambidextrious. But it would still explain the separate lawyers. Somebody was on his/her own. I happen to think the murderer was Patsy, but I wasn't there, so I don't know. But even though I wasn't there, I am sure that the murderer was one of them-of that, I have no doubt. Also, if John was the murderer, & he had enough power to convince Patsy to write the note, then he would've had the power to insist on just one lawyer-to make himself look as innocent as possible. I don't think Patsy willed that kind of power.

dodie20, there's a thread on this board called "No Honor Among Thieves." You might want to check it out.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, I can see this isn't really getting us anywhere! There are those who believe PR wrote the RN and therefore was involved and those who don't. We could go on with 'did', 'didn't' for ever!

It seems like we HAVE!

We need to move forward.

Can I get your co-operation to decide on the points where there is a general consensus?

1. The RN was written by a woman (this narrows it down to half the population anyway)
2. The RN was written by someone who was close to the family
3. JB's skull fracture occurred 'accidentally' - not a 'slip on a banana skin' type accident, but meaning that the head injury was unintentional or unplanned.
4. The strangulation occurred following the head injury.
5. Both the head injury and strangulation occurred in the basement.

That should give us a start, anyway......

It might not be as simple as even THAT.

1. I agree (as did Patsy herself).
2. No argument at all.
3. Yes, that's how I'd say it. When we say "accident," that is what we mean.
4. I agree.
5. No go. I think the head injury (if not both) started in her bedroom.

 

[DeeDee249]

Well, I can see this isn't really getting us anywhere! There are those who believe PR wrote the RN and therefore was involved and those who don't. We could go on with 'did', 'didn't' for ever! We need to move forward.

Can I get your co-operation to decide on the points where there is a general consensus?

1. The RN was written by a woman (this narrows it down to half the population anyway)
2. The RN was written by someone who was close to the family
3. JB's skull fracture occurred 'accidentally' - not a 'slip on a banana skin' type accident, but meaning that the head injury was unintentional or unplanned.
4. The strangulation occurred following the head injury.
5. Both the head injury and strangulation occurred in the basement.

That should give us a start, anyway......

I agree with all of it, with an alternative for #5. I also think the head bash may have occurred either in her room or bathroom. But I have just as strong ideas about it happening in the basement, as a reaction to her scream.
And if course, #2 IF someone "close to the family" can also include Patsy in that category.

 

[dodie20]

I agree with all of it, with an alternative for #5. I also think the head bash may have occurred either in her room or bathroom. But I have just as strong ideas about it happening in the basement, as a reaction to her scream.
And if course, #2 IF someone "close to the family" can also include Patsy in that category.

I've thought that about #5 also, especially if the basement was used for a punishment room. That would mean that Patsy was already pi**ed off when they went down there. A scream from JonBenet could've enraged her. Heck, I don't know-just thinking aloud.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, I can see this isn't really getting us anywhere! There are those who believe PR wrote the RN and therefore was involved and those who don't. We could go on with 'did', 'didn't' for ever! We need to move forward.

Can I get your co-operation to decide on the points where there is a general consensus?

1. The RN was written by a woman (this narrows it down to half the population anyway)
2. The RN was written by someone who was close to the family
3. JB's skull fracture occurred 'accidentally' - not a 'slip on a banana skin' type accident, but meaning that the head injury was unintentional or unplanned.
4. The strangulation occurred following the head injury.
5. Both the head injury and strangulation occurred in the basement.

That should give us a start, anyway......

1. Nope. The RN was not likely written by a woman. Too many violent, commanding, and condescending phrases talking down to JR. And the Victory! emote is a revolutionary socialist talking. This narrows it down considerably, doncha think?
2. Nope. The RN itself indicates the author wasn't close to the family because the RN author was wrong about the family. JR had no 'southern' common sense, and RDI's convenient myth that JR was teased about his 'southern common sense' needs to be quoted from an unbiased source (and no, please not by a PDI author!).
3. Nope. JBR was headbashed so that she could not be revived. Had she been only strangled when an intruder was interrupted, then she could've been revived to identify her attacker. This combination is not unusual. Bob Crane the actor died this way, among others.
4. Nope. There was control with strangulation, not with headbashing. Headbashing would therefore come later.
5. Nope. Strangulation probably started in her bedroom. There is fiber evidence from the ligature cord found in JBR's bed. RDI doesn't discuss this much because the basement was supposed to be the 'stage' not the bedroom.

This IDI provides no consensus on these points.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You're asking me where one of the lead detectives got his information? I'd think it would be fairly obvious, wouldn't it?

When ST published his remarks he was not a lead detective. He sure boasted about what he thought were 'major investigative conclusions' Thats interesting considering he wasn't part of the investigation anymore, and nobody who is actually a lead detective is calling prior abuse a major investigative conclusion.

While writing his book, he was biased and is therefore not a reliable source. You'll be needing the actual report or affidavit that ST quoted before I'll believe a word of it, especially with that 'Bonita Paper' tabloid junk floating around. Everyone seems to be sourcing that but the trail ends there. The fact that Dr. Meyer listed zero prior injuries in his final diagnosis rather limits what can be inferred from it.

I did notice that RDI seems to be oh-so-close not only to prior abuse but also to PR writing the note. Just a coincidence, I guess? IOW there's plenty of opinion on both but neither are treated as conclusions by any means.

 

[madeleine]

1. Nope. The RN was not likely written by a woman. Too many violent, commanding, and condescending phrases talking down to JR. And the Victory! emote is a revolutionary socialist talking. This narrows it down considerably, doncha think?
2. Nope. The RN itself indicates the author wasn't close to the family because the RN author was wrong about the family. JR had no 'southern' common sense, and RDI's convenient myth that JR was teased about his 'southern common sense' needs to be quoted from an unbiased source (and no, please not by a PDI author!).
3. Nope. JBR was headbashed so that she could not be revived. Had she been only strangled when an intruder was interrupted, then she could've been revived to identify her attacker. This combination is not unusual. Bob Crane the actor died this way, among others.
4. Nope. There was control with strangulation, not with headbashing. Headbashing would therefore come later.
5. Nope. Strangulation probably started in her bedroom. There is fiber evidence from the ligature cord found in JBR's bed. RDI doesn't discuss this much because the basement was supposed to be the 'stage' not the bedroom.

This IDI provides no consensus on these points.

@nr.5
This would mean he was down in the basement first (the paintbrush attached to the cord).Why didn't he use something in JB's bedroom.Maybe the fibers found in her bed only mean her hands were tied there.And what about Burke,wasn't he afraid Burke might wake up?I don't recall now but what did the Ramsey's say about Burke's door,was it usually kept open or closed during the night?

 

[BBB167893]

Maybe the fibers found in her bed only mean her hands were tied there

That's what I think.

 

[BBB167893]

When ST published his remarks he was not a lead detective.

That's as may be, but don't forget what Mark Fuhrman said in his own book: he urged ST to make copies of the files if he was to use them later on.

He sure boasted about what he thought were 'major investigative conclusions' Thats interesting considering he wasn't part of the investigation anymore,

He was giving what he knew. You want to hang him for that?

and nobody who is actually a lead detective is calling prior abuse a major investigative conclusion.

I wouldn't know about that, HOTYH. It's been so long since an actual detective WORKED on this case...

While writing his book, he was biased and is therefore not a reliable source.

Heard it before.

You'll be needing the actual report or affidavit that ST quoted before I'll believe a word of it, especially with that 'Bonita Paper' tabloid junk floating around.

What I wouldn't give to get it!

Everyone seems to be sourcing that but the trail ends there. The fact that Dr. Meyer listed zero prior injuries in his final diagnosis rather limits what can be inferred from it.

I did notice that RDI seems to be oh-so-close not only to prior abuse but also to PR writing the note. Just a coincidence, I guess? IOW there's plenty of opinion on both but neither are treated as conclusions by any means.

Unfortunately, HOTYH, that tends to happen when a case degenerates into a battle of experts. Of course, it didn't HAVE to degenerate into a battle of experts, but quite frankly, I'm as tired of explaining that as you probably are of hearing it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

@nr.
This would mean he was down in the basement first (the paintbrush attached to the cord).Why didn't he use something in JB's bedroom.Maybe the fibers found in her bed only mean her hands were tied there.And what about Burke,wasn't he afraid Burke might wake up?I don't recall now but what did the Ramsey's say about Burke's door,was it usually kept open or closed during the night?

I noticed your questions aren't hard to answer.

Why didn't he use something in JB's bedroom? Because looking for something could make noise. Better for him to come prepared.

Wasn't he afraid Burke might wake up? I don't think this intruder was ever afraid while in the house. Prefering not to wake the others, the ligature around JBR's neck would certainly prevent her from making noise. Tieing her hands could've happened also.

 

[DeeDee249]

@nr.5
This would mean he was down in the basement first (the paintbrush attached to the cord).Why didn't he use something in JB's bedroom.Maybe the fibers found in her bed only mean her hands were tied there.And what about Burke,wasn't he afraid Burke might wake up?I don't recall now but what did the Ramsey's say about Burke's door,was it usually kept open or closed during the night?

Her hands weren't really tied anywhere, with the exception of the postmortem staging on one hand. There were absolutely NO ligature marks of any kind on her wrists. No evidence of it when she was alive, and no evidence of it (as livor mortis marks) after she was dead. The one cord found on a wrist was tied so loosely, it slipped right off. That would have not restrained an alert child. And if she'd been unconscious, there would still have been marks.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Her hands weren't really tied anywhere, with the exception of the postmortem staging on one hand.

This is only your fiction stated as fact.

Not only that, but the coroner states in his report that the ligature was around the wrist. This ligature had more than one knot in it, so your statement that her hands weren't tied anywhere doesn't make sense. They were slip-knots capable of tightening against a pull.

Just because there were no wrist injuries listed on the coroner's report doesn't mean that there were no marks, that there was never any pull, or that the ligature was ineffective at restraining her arms.

 

[MurriFlower]

Well, I still have real problems with the RDI theory. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think it all hinges on PR having written the RN? If not her, then there’s an outside chance JR may have written it.

If one or other wrote it, then they were either responsible or covering for the murder(er). If neither wrote it, then they could not responsible nor be involved.

So, in the beginning, I was happy to believe RDI and that PR wrote the RN. But the problem with this was why didn’t they remove the body of JBR from the house?

Leaving the why and how of the murder aside just for a little while, let’s just assume that RDI and what followed was:

PR, with her degree in Journalism and flair for drama, wrote the two and a half pages of RN following the murder of her daughter, as an explanation for her death and to divert suspicion from them. Then, at 6.30am she ‘finds’ the note and her daughter apparently missing, tells her husband, who immediately instructs her to phone 911 and ring all their friends. The cops arrive first, closely followed by the friends (whose sole purpose it appears is to contaminate the murder scene). After a period of time and with no ransom demand, one of the cops (apparently to give JR something to do) tells him to search the house for any signs of her! He then finds his daughter, (presumably where he hid her earlier), and carries her upstairs (thus intentionally destroying/contaminating the body and murder site) to her mother who puts on a wonderful display of hysterical grief for the gathered crowd. The cops immediately (within 20 minutes) suspect the parents and subsequently find upon analysis that the RN was ‘most likely’ written by PR. This, together with the behaviour of the parents after the murder, convince a large proportion of the population that they did it, and because of wealth and position, have gotten away with it.

I think this probably sums up what most of the RDI believe. So, I can go along with this to a degree, but for such a planned and complicated attempt to cover up, they botched the whole thing. Here’s what should have happened if RDI.

Assuming the murder has occurred however and for what ever as above. It is now 11.30pm or 12.00 midnight. PR sits down to write the RN. Her degree in journalism and flair for drama would (more likely) lead her to write – “We have your daughter. If you want to see her alive again you must follow our instructions. Do not tell anyone about this. Get $100,000 in cash. We will call in the morning with further instructions.” She would take pains to disguise her writing, not use her left hand to write in exactly the same way as she does with her right hand. They would then wrap up the body of JBR and put it in the trunk of their car. One of them (probably him) would take the body to a deserted place/lake and dispose of it, while the other cleans up the crime scene. Burke is later awoken and told JBR has been taken, but he is to stay in the house and speak to no one lest she be killed. The older children are contacted early in the morning and told there is some ‘problem’ (Patsy is ill perhaps) and they are to delay their departure till further notice. When the bank opens they draw out the money and they wait till afternoon. They then call the cops and tell them that they have followed the kidnapper’s instructions but have not received a call from the kidnappers and now fear JBR may have been killed. The cops search the house and find nothing, they then search for the kidnappers and eventually find JBR’s body (days/weeks/months later). There is evidence of head injury, sexual assault, (maybe even strangling, although if this was supposedly staged by JR & PR to protect the murderer it would not have been necessary). If a neighbour happened to see the car go out in the middle of the night, JR just says he couldn’t sit and wait till morning and was searching the neighbourhood for any sign of her or of someone suspicious in the hope of getting her back. Everything is sweet, the parents are not implicated, the murderer is never found.

Comments??