Irwin Attorney: ‘Jersey’ Bragged About Kidnapping Lisa Irwin

[Oriah]

There are a lot of different compounds. But the dogs are TRAINED using cadaverine and putrescine, which is only available to certain trainers, under specific conditions. You can't just walk in a store and buy it. (In fact, it is so hard to get that only elite trainers can get it - everyone else has to use synthetic or PIG scent. Seriously. And those dogs are going to have many more false hits.)

So this scent is what the dogs learn on. They obviously can't smell a real cadaver - so they use these substances, because they are present in EVERY cadaver. But the same stuff is also in other body fluids. And that's the problem here.

As I said - normally a dog is running around, looking for a body. If it smells urine, the handler sees that there is no body there, and they move along. It's not even really considered a "hit" usually (so that the hit/miss ratio stays high). They don't really care about the smell - they are looking for the body.

In THIS case, LE wanted that hit. They either wanted it as a clue (something to say woah - there COULD have been a body here) or they wanted it to get probable cause to get the search warrant. But I m pretty sure that very few LE really think that a dead body was laid down in that spot. If they had thought that, they would have ripped up the carpet and the floor, and probably half the wall too - and taken it as evidence.

Anyway, if we are going to discuss the dogs anymore we should probably move to the Cadaver thread

BBM:

Please do move to the HRD dog thread.

I have a big issue with this information being disseminated as such, as I feel it to be very inaccurate.

 

[Just K]

That's not exactly right and it's confusing; not looking for a debate, just clarifying so the facts are kept straight. There is no statement anywhere that I've seen saying that witness Lisa and her husband saw the bald man carrying a baby to the sprinkler house (if you have one, please post it). What was on HLN is Mary Hurt confirming it was her house that LE came to search based on the witnesses account. LE's interview with Mary Hurt then led them to search the sprinkler house.

NANCY GRACE TRANSCRIPT NOV 2, 2011:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/02/ng.01.html

Snipped:

MARY HURT, BABY LISA`S NEIGHBOR, POLICE CHECKED HER PROPERTY FOR SUSPICIOUS FOOTPRINTS: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Miss Hurt, exactly where is your home in relation to the Bradleys?

HURT: They are probably about five houses that separate us and the corner. I kind of go along the path towards the Brighton town homes where the dumpster fire was.

GRACE: So that`s five doors down. Now you got somehow pulled into this whole thing because another neighbor believes they saw a male the night baby Lisa goes missing carrying a baby, turning into your property. Is that correct?

HURT: Yes. They turned onto our property and it`s the lead to the gym that they went through our neighbor`s back yard, because our gate is locked to our fence and the neighbor`s is open.

GRACE: Now, on the night baby Lisa disappears, did you see anything?

HURT: I didn`t. The only thing out of the ordinary was that our neighbor`s sprinklers were still on in the late hours at around 9:30. And at 11:00 they were turned off. So some time during their -- there hasn`t been Jersey or someone come back and turned them off which was out of the ordinary.

GRACE: Now police -- yes. Police came to your location. They interviewed you. Did they take footprints?

HURT: They searched our house. They searched the backyard and they took footprint molds out of our neighbor`s backyard right by that gate where there`s kind of a semi grassy dirty dirt filled area where they could get footprints off of.

If Jersey had been in the yard between 9:30 and 11:00 PM to turn off the sprinklers then the chances that he could go into the Irwin home, especially if he stood in the flower bed outside the manipulated computer room window, and leave no residue on their floors and carpets is slim to zero.

 

[Oriah]

But a LAB can't tell where an isolated sample of cadaverine came from. All they can tell is what it is, and if it's human, but they can't tell you who produced it, or even where it came from. It's not like DNA.

Don't get me wrong, I think dogs are amazing, and I would sure use them if I needed to track someone - but they just are not magicians. They can find the scent, but they have no clue where it came from.

No, an HRD dog is not a magician. A magician seeks to deceive.

An HRD dog is an investigative tool, seeking truth- and used to aid in an investigation in the location of a deceased human being.

And some of them can distinguish DNA, believe it or not.

 

[katshep]

Why would Adam Baker make a bogus 911 call? Why did Billie Dunn lie to LE and harbor the only named suspect in her daughter's disapperance? Why did Ronald Cummings marry Misty Croslin? Why do we constantly learn of mothers who stand by and watch stepfathers and live-ins murder their children? I'm not saying that any of those scenarios apply to these parents. I'm only saying that what happens in crimes against children never makes sense to us. All MOO

Over 30 studies of the link between domestic violence and child abuse/neglect show a median co-occurrence of both forms of violence in forty percent of families studied with the ranging the majority of studies varying from 30 percent to 60 percent of families (Appel & Holden, 1998, Edleson, 1999)."

The correlation between some mothers knowing about abuse, and the high likelihood that the mother is also a victim of abuse, means that for many women, it is actually safer for herself and her children to stay in a violent situation. While this is unfathomable for many to understand, in the vast majority of domestic homicide, women and children are murdered by their partners when the women leave the perpetrator.

"We know that about 75% of domestic homicides occur during or around the time of separation and abandonment"

For many women, it's far safer to stay, than to leave. Even if she did know about the abuse, often she stays for their collective safety.

The other thing is many of the women ( I use women, because it is predominantly women in these situations), are themselves the victims of abuse. As children they are hyper-vigilant, living in a state of fear, but no one can do that for a lifetime and the warning system breaks down. These abused children grow up to be adults who don't recognize the warning signs of danger. Things that would put other people in a "fight or flight" response don't register. The fear detector is burnt out in some adult survivors of child abuse.

 

[Whisperer]

O/T - I was reading Jeff Ashton's book last night. The defense attorneys sending out bogus leads, injecting innocent people, making false statements to the media etc..was a huge challenge for them, as they had to follow up on said leaks by defense, which all turned out to be BS and cost the state a ton of $. In the end, none of it were true, Caylee was dead, and it was all "smoke and mirrors."

Sad. I know the defense team has a job, but they shouldn't be making their media rounds until someone is charged. JMO

:clap: :clap: :clap:

......Fact is they do this after they're charged also. They had Orlando running all over the U.S. looking for a live Caylee. Heck, after cindy cremated Caylee, she insisted she was alive...and the press videotaped her saying it...crazy. These Defense Attorneys need to be stopped. It has got way out of hand.

 

[MissJames]

:clap: :clap: :clap:[/I][/B]

......Fact is they do this after they're charged also. They had Orlando running all over the U.S. looking for a live Caylee. Heck, after cindy cremated Caylee, she insisted she was alive...and the press videotaped her saying it...crazy.

She even said it in court under oath during the hearing about the 911 calls,IIRC.

Cindy thought the defense would be SODDI .The defense appeared to be heading that way from the things they tossed out in the media and even in court.
I see no difference with this DT. JT is spittin' in the wind,IMO.

 

[yllek]

:clap: :clap: :clap:[/I][/B]

......Fact is they do this after they're charged also. They had Orlando running all over the U.S. looking for a live Caylee. Heck, after cindy cremated Caylee, she insisted she was alive...and the press videotaped her saying it...crazy. These Defense Attorneys need to be stopped. It has got way out of hand.

I agree with you AngelWings, Whisperer and MissJames.

I am hoping one good thing came from the Anthony case that can be applied to other missing person cases: charging the cost of some of the investigation to those who knew the person was dead and still allowed critical resources, time and money to be expended searching for the person, as a direct result of their lies. Imo, holding the liar fiscally responsible is a good precedent to be set. Others may disagree, and that's fine. It's just my opinion. It has gotten out of control. JMO...

ETA: It has crossed my mind that this may be why Debbi and Jeremy are not pleading for Lisa's return or cooperating with LE any longer. They are not directly asking LE to search for their child anymore, so they wouldn't be responsible beyond the original 4 days of the investigation. I hope this isn't the case, but it did cross my mind. JMO...

 

[DeAnn]

I agree that there certainly was emphasis on Mr. Brando in early November. But, to be fair to the defense team, I dont' think Mr. Brando has ever been hinted at or mentioned by them at all. Media focus on Mr. Brando came mostly from Mr. Abeyta and Mike T's (motorcycle man) identification of Mr. Brando in a photo line up, later determined to have been issued to him first by Mr. Abeyta.

But, the defense team has not attempted to serve up Mr. Brando on a platter (unless I missed something).

As far as publicly, Bill Stanton and Mr. Brando:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/16017789/baby-lisas-first-birthday-and-still-few-clues

 

[Whisperer]

Can anyone come up with a good reason why neither parent will talk individually to LE? I have eliminated 'fear". One doesn't have fear of LE when their child is in danger.

 

[MissFine]

Here is the article from her first interview. She said her husband saw a man carry a baby. She asked not to be named and her husband refused to go on camera. Her story has since changed that SHE saw the man herself. I have always wondered why her husband stood over a car with his back to the came, kind of bent over and refused to go on camera. :waitasec: Maybe he is just camera shy. :innocent:

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/ne...d-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A woman who lives in the area where police believe a 10-month-old child was abducted said her husband saw a man carrying a baby early Tuesday morning, but didn’t think anything of it.
A neighbor, who later asked NBC Action News that she not be named, said her husband was coming home around 12 a.m. Tuesday when he saw the man carrying a baby wearing only a diaper.
“He seen the guy act like he was going to go into a residence,” she said, “but then my husband drove off so we’re thinking that maybe he was just doing that so that my husband would leave.”
The woman said her husband saw the man walking on a street perpendicular to North Lister, where Lisa Irwin lives with her parents and brothers.

Thank the lord I'm not loosing my mind. I knew I saw the woman on the news, standing outside giving the interview and she said her HUSBAND saw the 'man with the baby'. Thank you Angelwings! moo

 

[yllek]

As far as publicly, Bill Stanton and Mr. Brando:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/16017789/baby-lisas-first-birthday-and-still-few-clues

Thanks DeAnn. I still maintain that the defense team has not put scrutiny on Mr. Brando in the media, it was Mr. Abeyta and Mike T's sightings (then reported on by Spellman, without naming names) that put Mr. Brando in the media spotlight earlier this month. I don't consider Stanton part of the defense team; I don't know what to make of his role. But, even if you do consider him a defense team member, I think he answered questions about Mr. Brando in a way that took focus off of Mr. Brando. He was redirecting it back to Jersey. JMO.

Snipped from your link:

Stanton said he finds Brando "interesting," but he is not a focus.

"He's not the prime person I'm looking at this," he said.

However, he said Tanko and his former girlfriend, Megan Wright, do have his attention.

"We keep hearing his name again and again," Stanton

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

Ok, this still makes no sense. The 'defense' comes out now with all this specific information about a specific scenario and actors, but for what?? Just to prove 'see, we told you we didn't do it'. No effort to find the baby, just a shift of blame. Why arent they spending the $100,000 reward on tracking down Jersey and finding the baby. They just allude to some black market baby ring and say now we want to get back to our normal lives??

BBM It won't cost much to track down Jersey, anyone following the case knows where he is, and he's not going anywhere yet. :waitasec:

 

[MissFine]

Can anyone come up with a good reason why neither parent will talk individually to LE? I have eliminated 'fear". One doesn't have fear of LE when their child is in danger.

Guilt? moo

 

[AlmostGone]

Can anyone come up with a good reason why neither parent will talk individually to LE? I have eliminated 'fear". One doesn't have fear of LE when their child is in danger.

They have to keep their story's straight 100% just a guess..

 

[Whisperer]

Or they know it will just be more of the same blame game they got during their many hours of individual interviews originally. Like I said before, if there are questions that would make or break this case and LE is sitting on them because they can't ask them individually - then there really is a problem. If they NEED something answered in order to find Lisa - ask the question any way you can get an answer. Otherwise, I too believe it is just requested in order to pit one against the other and throw out accusations. The parents have answered any question LE has posed to them by phone, email, through attorneys. In the station, individual interviews have been done.

This explanation reeks of attorney spin...nonsense. What is meant by "the parents have answered EVERY question posed by LE"? LE needs them in person on camera, sitting in front of them. They had one interview before lawyering up FGS! The fact that the mother failed a poly, should open up a barrel load of questions but she hired an attorney to stop LE from questioning her about her MISSING CHILD!!!

 

[Jacie Estes]

Can anyone come up with a good reason why neither parent will talk individually to LE? I have eliminated 'fear". One doesn't have fear of LE when their child is in danger.

Innocence

 

[Whisperer]

These two parents need to be brought in for questioning yesterday. This attorney carp is out of hand. Who is this big benefactor who is paying these people to protect the parents? Why is she doing this? What is in it for her? She certainly isn't interested in finding Lisa...but to protect these two guilty people. Is she related to them? Why give hundreds of thousands of dollars to these two so they can hide and get away with not finding their own child. What kind of parents don't care enough to beg for the safe return of their child? My answer is parents who know exactly where the child is and how she got there. There is no other explanation.

 

[DeAnn]

I don't need to link.

BBM: This is absolutely NOT true.

Scent discrimination can be extremely precise. It all depends upon what the canine has been trained to discriminate off of.

If a laboratory can distinguish between scent- then so can a properly trained canine, who has the physical ability to do so.

You'd be amazed at what an adept canine can scent discriminate between.

When I came back into the United States at the Chicago airport, a beagle with the US government was sniffing out fruits, veggies etc brought back into the country. He stopped at me and sniffed my socks (they had a Canadian red leaf on them so that could have been the issue, they had touched fruit while out of the country or he smelled my sweet doggie on them). He quickly moved on. At one point....he started scratching like crazy a red roller a woman had beside her. Inside? An apple. It was amazing to watch the oranges, apples and stuff that dog sniffed out and in one case the fruit was buried deep in the bag....not like in a jacket pocket.

 

[Whisperer]

Innocence

...thank you for the well thought out explanation...Innoncence is preventing the parents from speaking with LE. These parents are innocent and don't care to talk to LE about any possible suspects that stole and perhaps killed their child....got it!

...they are innocent and don't care to go on tv and beg for their child to be kept from harm. They are innocent and are not begging LE to find the SOB who did this...

...they are innocent so they will forget about her and not speak for Lisa since she is unable to speak for herself. They are innocent so it is not necessary to talk to police?

IF one is innocent, nothing would stop them from sitting at the station all day every day till LE finds your child. An innocent person would do anything, take any test, answer every question, subject themselves to intensive scrutiny to find their precious child. In fact, an innocent person who lost a child would even subject themselves to jail if that's what it took.

....................NOT THESE TWO!

 

[DeAnn]

Thanks DeAnn. I still maintain that the defense team has not put scrutiny on Mr. Brando in the media, it was Mr. Abeyta and Mike T's sightings (then reported on by Spellman, without naming names) that put Mr. Brando in the media spotlight earlier this month. I don't consider Stanton part of the defense team; I don't know what to make of his role. But, even if you do consider him a defense team member, I think he answered questions about Mr. Brando in a way that took focus off of Mr. Brando. He was redirecting it back to Jersey. JMO.

Snipped from your link:

Stanton said he finds Brando "interesting," but he is not a focus.

"He's not the prime person I'm looking at this," he said.

However, he said Tanko and his former girlfriend, Megan Wright, do have his attention.

"We keep hearing his name again and again," Stanton

The defense team has not *publicly* put scrutiny. Someone had to tell Gil to make his claims about Mr. Brando. Where did he get the information? Was it while he was inside Phil Netz' home? He hinted at the "revenge" motive. Where did he get that information? The defense team? Who brought Mr. Brando to Mr. Spellman's attention? Do you think it was KCPD or someone associated with DB/JI? And if you look at the timeline, the police were talking to Mr. Brando well before the media began reporting about him. Was he on the list that JI and DB provided law enforcement? When it comes to Mr. Brando there's two time periods in question. Information provided before his phone records and polygraph (if you believe him when he says he took one) and information afterward.