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[Shylock]

thats why she was clawing at her neck and apparently clawed at him too, getting some rogue dna under her nails, the same dna that he left in her panties.

Please quote the lines from the autopsy that state there were claw marks on her neck.
You can't claw anything when your skull has been split in two.

 

[Barbara]

The use of the blanket may well have been to avoid forensic evidence from his clothing being deposited. He dragged her onto the blanket and use the blanket to carry and then conceal her.

The use of the blanket would leave MORE forensic evidence than not. Blankets will pick up more fibers, etc. than a bare floor. Once again, had he dragged her, she would show scrapes or other injuries, especially if she was already dead. AND...why would he have to drag her at all? If she wasn't too heavy to carry from her bedroom all the way to the basement with a stopover in the kitchen for some pineapple, then why would she be too heavy to carry?

I consider the strangulation to have been slow and to have involved a multititude of relaxations and re-tightenings, thats why she was clawing at her neck and apparently clawed at him too, getting some rogue dna under her nails, the same dna that he left in her panties.

Wrong! She was not clawing at the rope or her neck. If she had been fighting for her life, you can bet, there would be REAL DNA under her nails, not degraded or rogue DNA. If she was clawing, there would be real big marks on her neck. The strangulation being slow and methodical with relaxations and retightenings are all a product of your imagination and theory and not based on real facts at all. There is no evidence other than your own creativity that there was any slow or methodical tightening and retightening of the garrotte

Anyone who enjoyed the strangulation sure wasn't going to make it easy on her by bashing her head in first so she wouldn't feel the terror as he watched her suffer and listen to his "Your father will not come rescue you", "there is no Jesus", "there is no Heaven" and "your mother will be hurt forever".

First you say the whole act was to get even with John Ramsey, now you say that the perp wanted JBR to feel the terror. Actually, I am not sure just how cognitive a six year old child would be in being aware of the "terror" yet to come. Another product of your imagination and I might add, a little scary. None of these things happened

Staging, posing? Why would the person who "set the stage" want to destroy it?

Nobody set the stage. All the staging and overkill was done AFTER the deed. Intruders don't stage. Families and loved ones stage.

 

[Barbara]

I don't think he felt any particular anger or rage at JonBenet at all. Not ever.

Anyone who enjoyed the strangulation sure wasn't going to make it easy on her by bashing her head in first so she wouldn't feel the terror as he watched her suffer and listen to his "Your father will not come rescue you", "there is no Jesus", "there is no Heaven" and "your mother will be hurt forever".

Didn't you just post the above. Both quotes are yours. Make up your mind. If he had no anger toward JonBenet, there was no need to make her suffer or tell her those terrible things right?

 

[ICU]

Didn't you just post the above. Both quotes are yours. Make up your mind. If he had no anger toward JonBenet, there was no need to make her suffer or tell her those terrible things right?

Hello Barbara,

That is my wife’s name also, I have always loved that name, you and my wife have very strong opinions on any subject she tackles.

Are you sure that the body was wrapped in the blanket? or was the blanket just there? Do you think that the parent did it? Please forgive me for making mistakes about the discovery of the body, it has been a while sense I read the reports, and I am new on this site. Do you agree that it was a brutal murder? It was pretty cold to go through all that staging, I said anger to tooth, I left out rage as you know that is the combination for the killer to get his high. That kind of kill sounds like it had some fantasy involved, it was bondage and control, the ear marks of a serial killer, someone seasoned at it, how was the getaway staged?

 

[ICU]

I don't think he felt any particular anger or rage at JonBenet at all. Not ever.

No anger not at all, why do you feel there was no anger or rage towards the child?
How was she murdered?

 

[Barbara]

Hello Barbara,

That is my wife’s name also, I have always loved that name, you and my wife have very strong opinions on any subject she tackles.

Are you sure that the body was wrapped in the blanket? or was the blanket just there? Do you think that the parent did it? Please forgive me for making mistakes about the discovery of the body, it has been a while sense I read the reports, and I am new on this site. Do you agree that it was a brutal murder? It was pretty cold to go through all that staging, I said anger to tooth, I left out rage as you know that is the combination for the killer to get his high. That kind of kill sounds like it had some fantasy involved, it was bondage and control, the ear marks of a serial killer, someone seasoned at it, how was the getaway staged?

Thanks for the compliment. Are you in the medical profession? I can't help but ask with a hat called ICU.

By all accounts, and this is a fact, the body was found wrapped in a blanket. Her own father recalls it as "papoose-like". So someone took the time to wrap her up after killing her. Yes, this was a brutal murder. I think the staging was not meant to be cold, jut to point away from the member of the family that killed her. There are so many theories floating around. If Patsy or John killed her, then I think it was an accident and was covered up, not to be cold, just to cover it up to look like an intruder. If Burke killed her (a strong theory for me) then I have no problem with the scenario that he was enraged with his sister and the parents covered it up.

All my theories involve a family member. I have no doubt that her parents loved her, but I truly believe something went horribly wrong that night and they felt they had to cover it up for their only remaining child together. oops, did I say that out loud?

 

[ICU]

The use of the blanket would leave MORE forensic evidence than not. Blankets will pick up more fibers, etc. than a bare floor. Once again, had he dragged her, she would show scrapes or other injuries, especially if she was already dead. AND...why would he have to drag her at all? If she wasn't too heavy to carry from her bedroom all the way to the basement with a stopover in the kitchen for some pineapple, then why would she be too heavy to carry?



Wrong! She was not clawing at the rope or her neck. If she had been fighting for her life, you can bet, there would be REAL DNA under her nails, not degraded or rogue DNA. If she was clawing, there would be real big marks on her neck. The strangulation being slow and methodical with relaxations and retightenings are all a product of your imagination and theory and not based on real facts at all. There is no evidence other than your own creativity that there was any slow or methodical tightening and retightening of the garrotte



First you say the whole act was to get even with John Ramsey, now you say that the perp wanted JBR to feel the terror. Actually, I am not sure just how cognitive a six year old child would be in being aware of the "terror" yet to come. Another product of your imagination and I might add, a little scary. None of these things happened



Nobody set the stage. All the staging and overkill was done AFTER the deed. Intruders don't stage. Families and loved ones stage.

Barbara not just family stage there victims, look at the Elizabeth Short murder 1946, she was cut in half and left in the park by a path so she would be found, the killer was proud of his sadistic torture of the woman, her body was staged, she had no family member in California at the time, her family was in the east.

 

[Toth]

How was she murdered?

cruely, brutally and with great enjoyment.
But her killer was not angry at her. He did not kill her for anything she did, he did not kill her because she was a little girl, he killed her because she was John Ramsey's little girl. And he enjoyed doing it, but he was not angry with her at all.

 

[Barbara]

Barbara not just family stage there victims, look at the Elizabeth Short murder 1946, she was cut in half and left in the park by a path so she would be found, the killer was proud of his sadistic torture of the woman, her body was staged, she had no family member in California at the time, her family was in the east.

I think I got a little confused. What you refer to is "posing" the body...and you are quite right about how killers will do that. It is very common among sadistic sexual killers. What I refer to is staging of the crime scene, not posing of the body. The body was wrapped, not for posing, but for guilt? comfort? who knows for sure? nobody.


BTW Toth,

ALL murders are cruel. Even a split second gunshot through the head, while a quick death is still CRUEL and brutal. Just ask anyone who has lost a relative to a murder (that includes me). They are all cruel and painful for those left behind.

 

[ICU]

Thanks for the compliment. Are you in the medical profession? I can't help but ask with a hat called ICU.

By all accounts, and this is a fact, the body was found wrapped in a blanket. Her own father recalls it as "papoose-like". So someone took the time to wrap her up after killing her. Yes, this was a brutal murder. I think the staging was not meant to be cold, jut to point away from the member of the family that killed her. There are so many theories floating around. If Patsy or John killed her, then I think it was an accident and was covered up, not to be cold, just to cover it up to look like an intruder. If Burke killed her (a strong theory for me) then I have no problem with the scenario that he was enraged with his sister and the parents covered it up.

All my theories involve a family member. I have no doubt that her parents loved her, but I truly believe something went horribly wrong that night and they felt they had to cover it up for their only remaining child together. oops, did I say that out loud?

I’m not in the medical profession, ICU is a play on “I See You” not Intensive Care Unit, You are the first to notice that. So you think it was the brother? As you know all of the serial killers they have caught have had a horrible upbringing in there young lives, parents divorced or separated the child was in foster homes or lived with relatives and were sexually molested, parents in prison or alcoholics, you know the route, what kind of trauma did the brother have, was he born with a deformity or was he malnourished, did he have a head injury, is there something in his back ground that would cause this kind of crime, did he show cruelty to small animals? Cases in mind Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Edward Kemper, just to name a few of the people with really bad upbringings.

 

[ICU]

cruely, brutally and with great enjoyment.
But her killer was not angry at her. He did not kill her for anything she did, he did not kill her because she was a little girl, he killed her because she was John Ramsey's little girl. And he enjoyed doing it, but he was not angry with her at all.

Toth, the serial killer does not think like we do, he is a psychopath a person with no feelings for another person, the only one he cares about is himself. All rules do not apply to him, in his mind the only rules are the one’s that he can benefit from which is his own rules, it is all about him. He is self centered almost Spock like in feelings, so he is confused about love and hate, he can not love anyone but himself, now he is confused with emotions because he has none, it is a practiced response and not real. Now when he has a fantasy it is a violent one because that is how he gets his high, it is the feeling that he can do what ever he wants to the victim, remember it is just for his pleasure not the victim, so if the victim is in pain he feels that he is getting what he wants and that it is a real response and not fake one like prostitutes do to get there customers off, so anger and rage is a stimulus not an emotions kind of like when you are feeling good about sex he feels good about the anger and rage, it makes him feel powerful when the victim is helpless and weak.

 

[ICU]

I think I got a little confused. What you refer to is "posing" the body...and you are quite right about how killers will do that. It is very common among sadistic sexual killers. What I refer to is staging of the crime scene, not posing of the body. The body was wrapped, not for posing, but for guilt? comfort? who knows for sure? nobody.


BTW Toth,

ALL murders are cruel. Even a split second gunshot through the head, while a quick death is still CRUEL and brutal. Just ask anyone who has lost a relative to a murder (that includes me). They are all cruel and painful for those left behind.

Barbara, I am sorry to hear about your loss.
Thank you for correcting me on the difference between posing and staging, you are right.

 

[Barbara]

I’m not in the medical profession, ICU is a play on “I See You” not Intensive Care Unit, You are the first to notice that. So you think it was the brother? As you know all of the serial killers they have caught have had a horrible upbringing in there young lives, parents divorced or separated the child was in foster homes or lived with relatives and were sexually molested, parents in prison or alcoholics, you know the route, what kind of trauma did the brother have, was he born with a deformity or was he malnourished, did he have a head injury, is there something in his back ground that would cause this kind of crime, did he show cruelty to small animals? Cases in mind Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Edward Kemper, just to name a few of the people with really bad upbringings.

We really don't know if this was a serial killing. Naturally, IMO, this was not. I think something went terribly awry that night, either by Patsy or Burke. I tend, (for no reason I can put my finger on,) to think that it was NOT John. Just a feeling, nothing more or less. A serial killer would have killed prior and since. This case is not like any other. There were none before JBR was murdered where a ransom note and a body are together, and none since. Also, serial killers do not usually know their victims; they are random. I say random in that the victims are not known to one another, not that the victims weren't stalked and known to the murderer. In this case, the murderer knew exactly who the victim and the family was. The note addressed John Ramsey and seemingly knew about his "business". This was not a stranger.

As far as Burke, I don't really know much about him other than the tidbits reported by various people who do know him. Some say he was a strange little boy with a nasty temper toward his sister and others say he was as normal as any other 9 year old. We just don't know what is and what isn't true. However, having said that, I feel reading the accounts of his behavior that he had some emotional issues that nobody will publicly admit to.

A nine year old boy who is laughing and jumping around playing in the church during his sister's funeral has issues that need to be addressed. Not normal IMO.

A nine year old boy is cognitively capable of realizing the seriousness of a sibling's or parent's death and will respond with grief.

This nine year old boy did neither. He seemingly showed no emotion over his sister's death and had no interest during police interviews to ask any questions about his sister

That is STRANGE

 

[TLynn]

The blanket was in the basement dryer (deduced from Housekeeper & Patsy statements) - the Barbie nightgown was there possibly from static cling - that's all.

The "garrote" was primitive in it's making - not capable of being used for control. The rope was wrapped around JonBenet's neck and it's questionable if it was actually a "slip knot." (Autopsy calls it a double knot).

This wasn't some long, torturous basement murder scene as some would describe.

On the surface, it may look that way - but not when you study it further. Her wrists were loosely tied without a purpose - and the used piece of tape was put over her mouth after death.

Whoever made the ligature had no idea it would be referred to as a "garrote." Basically it was the broken paint brush "handle" that gave it that name.

 

[ICU]

The blanket was in the basement dryer (deduced from Housekeeper & Patsy statements) - the Barbie nightgown was there possibly from static cling - that's all.

The "garrote" was primitive in it's making - not capable of being used for control. The rope was wrapped around JonBenet's neck and it's questionable if it was actually a "slip knot." (Autopsy calls it a double knot).

This wasn't some long, torturous basement murder scene as some would describe.

On the surface, it may look that way - but not when you study it further. Her wrists were loosely tied without a purpose - and the used piece of tape was put over her mouth after death.

Whoever made the ligature had no idea it would be referred to as a "garrote." Basically it was the broken paint brush "handle" that gave it that name.

How much time did the killer spend with her in the basement?
Her wrist were loosely tied without a purpose, could it have been loosened by the father when he found her?
How do you know it was a used piece of tape on her mouth and why put the tape on her mouth after death?
How do you know that the person whom used the legature had no idea it would be referred to as a "garrote"?
If you use a broken paint brush handle then it becomes a garrote and if it becomes a garrote, then could she be garrotted?

 

[ICU]

We really don't know if this was a serial killing. Naturally, IMO, this was not. I think something went terribly awry that night, either by Patsy or Burke. I tend, (for no reason I can put my finger on,) to think that it was NOT John. Just a feeling, nothing more or less. A serial killer would have killed prior and since. This case is not like any other. There were none before JBR was murdered where a ransom note and a body are together, and none since. Also, serial killers do not usually know their victims; they are random. I say random in that the victims are not known to one another, not that the victims weren't stalked and known to the murderer. In this case, the murderer knew exactly who the victim and the family was. The note addressed John Ramsey and seemingly knew about his "business". This was not a stranger.

As far as Burke, I don't really know much about him other than the tidbits reported by various people who do know him. Some say he was a strange little boy with a nasty temper toward his sister and others say he was as normal as any other 9 year old. We just don't know what is and what isn't true. However, having said that, I feel reading the accounts of his behavior that he had some emotional issues that nobody will publicly admit to.

A nine year old boy who is laughing and jumping around playing in the church during his sister's funeral has issues that need to be addressed. Not normal IMO.

A nine year old boy is cognitively capable of realizing the seriousness of a sibling's or parent's death and will respond with grief.

This nine year old boy did neither. He seemingly showed no emotion over his sister's death and had no interest during police interviews to ask any questions about his sister

That is STRANGE

Barbara not everyone acts the way they are expected to act in a death situation, sometimes the child or adult may not be in there right thinking at the funeral, it may have been traumatic for him and this is how he was able to handle the death of his sister, there have been many reports of people acting strangely at the death of a loved one, some even blame themselves for the death, even when they were not even there at the time, trauma has a lot of side effects.

why do you have a feeling that he is guilty what is his motive?

Every thing I typed is IMO

 

[Barbara]

Barbara not everyone acts the way they are expected to act in a death situation, sometimes the child or adult may not be in there right thinking at the funeral, it may have been traumatic for him and this is how he was able to handle the death of his sister, there have been many reports of people acting strangely at the death of a loved one, some even blame themselves for the death, even when they were not even there at the time, trauma has a lot of side effects.

why do you have a feeling that he is guilty what is his motive?

Every thing I typed is IMO

While I agree with the reactions of different people in different situations, for purposes of these "opinion" boards as opposed to actually sitting on a jury is that we tend to judge, if you will, by our own personal standards and experiences. In my experiences, people react differently in situations for sure. No two persons are alike, but they tend to have some common denominators in times of crisis, etc. That's what we, as human beings take into consideration when trying to evaluate any person or situation. For me, the Ramsey family had nothing in common with the families of other murder victims, whether it be their behavior, refusal to cooperate with the authorities, getting a team of lawyers not only for themselves, but for the entire family, going on CNN, etc. as the list is endless in their Atypicalities.

As for Burke....nobody really knows for sure. My theory is simple. I don't know and neither does anyone else save the murderer. My firm opinion is that the entire family knows exactly what happened that night. I do not know for sure who did what and who is covering for whom, but I do strongly believe that the entire family DOES know. As far as motive, what motive could there possibly be to murder a six year old child? No matter who committed this crime, the motive would be ridiculous. The motive would only be valid to the murderer if it was not an accident and cover up.

 

[ICU]

While I agree with the reactions of different people in different situations, for purposes of these "opinion" boards as opposed to actually sitting on a jury is that we tend to judge, if you will, by our own personal standards and experiences. In my experiences, people react differently in situations for sure. No two persons are alike, but they tend to have some common denominators in times of crisis, etc. That's what we, as human beings take into consideration when trying to evaluate any person or situation. For me, the Ramsey family had nothing in common with the families of other murder victims, whether it be their behavior, refusal to cooperate with the authorities, getting a team of lawyers not only for themselves, but for the entire family, going on CNN, etc. as the list is endless in their Atypicalities.

As for Burke....nobody really knows for sure. My theory is simple. I don't know and neither does anyone else save the murderer. My firm opinion is that the entire family knows exactly what happened that night. I do not know for sure who did what and who is covering for whom, but I do strongly believe that the entire family DOES know. As far as motive, what motive could there possibly be to murder a six year old child? No matter who committed this crime, the motive would be ridiculous. The motive would only be valid to the murderer if it was not an accident and cover up.

You make a good call on your gut feeling, but it takes more than a feeling, you have to look at the work of the murder, some people say that it was John Ramsey the killer wanted to hurt, now that makes no sense, all the killer had to do was go into the bedroom of the parents and kill them both, Lizzy Borden did that, and serial killers that break into the homes at night will kill the husband first to eliminate the threat then hit his intended target. Look at the work of the killer and try to imagine a nine year old boy doing all that work. He had to be real busy and know a lot about how to kill, even if it was an accidental killing or something weird, try to imagine the Father and Mother mutilating the little girl so it would look like an accident, a couple whom never killed anyone before, try to simulate a horrendous crime, why not just strangle her and leave, did you read the autopsy report of Jon Ramsey. A lot went on.


_______________
IMO

 

[Nehemiah]

No. Although we have a skewed geographical base we find that we pretty much have people fairly near to where their legwork is needed. Cameras, dna-kits, public record searches... we are making progress on several fronts. DA-Keenan is going to be getting some really good stuff.

Who is the leader of these action teams? Is there a secret network of people scurrying around on all fronts?

Why--do you suppose the perp is reading the forums?

IMO

 

[ICU]

My apologies to Tlynn, I did not read the Ramsey case in a while and was not aware of the ligature around the neck was not garroted, after looking a the autopsy photos, it became clear to me that you were right about the paint brush handle.



_______________
IMO