Israel Keyes: General Discussion

Speaking of cases that are probably not Keyes but I just can’t shake, this is one I’ve had my eye on for a long time:

Peter Achermann – The Charley Project

I have a list of cases on my radar that I’ve never seen attributed to Keyes anywhere, and the two on that list that look the absolute most like Keyes based on the circumstances are Ace Williams and this one. And in Ace’s disappearance there are reasonable alternative scenarios, but in this one I don’t really see any.

I initially ruled Keyes out on this one due to the timeline, but the more I look at it, his alibi is just okay. It’s far from bulletproof.

Keyes had a construction job 7/20-7/30, but 7/24 was a friday and I don’t see why he couldn’t have taken a long weekend in the middle of a job. He had a transaction in AK on 7/23 (time of day unknown), but unless it was right before Home Depot closed I doubt that would preclude him from easily getting to Minnesota by mid-day the next day.

I think a lot about Keyes’ statement that his victims ranged from late teens to elderly. There are many high % late teens victims, but basically none that are “elderly” (depending on Keyes’ definition). If Keyes considered like 65 “elderly” there are plenty of possibilities, but this is one of only two I’ve ever found by MY definition that look like they could have been him.

To be clear, I do think this is somewhat more likely to be a Keyes case than either of the ones I mentioned upthread. Either way it’s a super weird one, but even more so if it wasn’t Keyes.
interesting to me is the empty car found in relation to this missing man , an abandoned car in an isolated area..reminds me of Maura a little..weird.
 
I wanna talk about/see what folks have to say about Noah Myoung - I feel like when TCBS mentioned his case initially it flew under my personal radar, but lately and seeing as the next season will likely go more in depth for him, I was looking into it more.

Firstly:
Here is Noah's page on Charley project

Also, Sorry if this confusing, it's hard to explain geography over text but it helps to map it and see what I mean on the timeline. Consider this my thought exercise on Myoung's feasibility and likelihood as a Keyes victim. I'd like to know what others see here and whether I'm missing something, I also have many questions which I'll try to separate w/ parantheses.

TLDR, Keyes' timeline has him in Calistoga California at the 'golden haven' , and then camping in Heraldsburg, at the same period as Myoung's disappearance in San Bruno, 2 hrs away, on 5/1/2007. This is about a 1.5/2hr distance by car.

The pair had just returned from "COSMED" (or cosmetic surgery - anyone tell me if this was the lap band op or not?) in Mexico. This trip had multiple tijuana medical trips prior to 5/1.

My observation here as to mapping it is that feasibly,
Keyes and Kim had stayed in Napa 4/29,
went southbound to Tijuana for this OP 4/30, returned and were in Calistoga as of 5/1, and then proceeded to go to nearby Santa Rosa the day after Noah Myoung disappears 1.5 hours south in San Bruno, which they already passed by the day before. Meaning- Keyes easily could have driven that, basically backtracking, timing it with an 'escape'.

Now, The timing with Kim - She was probably rested up at the hotel after her spa day recovering from "COSMED" or just chilling. But the same day she does that, Keyes in this scenario could easily have just dipped out for a while, as he rented that kayak and possibly (or as an alibi) camped in heraldsburg the night of 5/1. IK and Kim had radically different schedules that day and night of 5/1.

So, Keyes says he's camping, makes the transaction there (was this site at 2411 Alexander Valley significant or just an alibi?) while in reality he's spending the night fishing for his victim or already scheduled it, driving to san bruno that evening instead, and then abducting/murdering his E taxi service victim into the night. Before this he buys stuff at Calmart in Conestoga as well. (Sounding like Walmart and Jimmy Tidwell a bit? or maybe my pattern recognition deceives me)
After this, Kim and Keyes go to nearby santa rosa and have a 2 day vacation package. (Hello? The caribbean cruise & SK / possible texas victims? Again, a bit of a possible pattern here with distancing from crimes & vacations )

Additionally as a victim, Noah Myoung is an interesting one. If you want to just rob someone, getting a one man private taxi service isn't really the obvious option, it's not even likely he had much money on hand.
But if you're a serial killer, it would be easy pickings. Get him to come to you later in evening with a good offer, take control of the vehicle and victim and have your way.

The other point here that, while it may sound silly i feel is worth pointing out due to how corny Keyes was- Thinking about the case reminds me a bit of the Zodiac murders loosely in MO. And all of this is nearby to Lake Berryessa, SF, etc. Maybe for Keyes that was an aspect he enjoyed given his admiration of his predecessors. Also, where would he dispose of a victim around here?

This seems to me to be quite consistent and would match a lot of what we know of Keyes. Victim and car go missing, small stature of victim, vacations, short timelines, Victim was presumably from online/phone contact like DF.

IMO, Myoung seems like an MP that really can't be ruled out. It's kinda screaming at me after I dug into it more, to be honest. It's also one of the rare times his timeline lines up really well with a reported MP.
 
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I wanna talk about/see what folks have to say about Noah Myoung - I feel like when TCBS mentioned his case initially it flew under my personal radar, but lately and seeing as the next season will likely go more in depth for him, I was looking into it more.

Firstly:
Here is Noah's page on Charley project

Also, Sorry if this confusing, it's hard to explain geography over text but it helps to map it and see what I mean on the timeline. Consider this my thought exercise on Myoung's feasibility and likelihood as a Keyes victim. I'd like to know what others see here and whether I'm missing something, I also have many questions which I'll try to separate w/ parantheses.

TLDR, Keyes' timeline has him in Calistoga California at the 'golden haven' , and then camping in Heraldsburg, at the same period as Myoung's disappearance in San Bruno, 2 hrs away, on 5/1/2007. This is about a 1.5/2hr distance by car.

The pair had just returned from "COSMED" (or cosmetic surgery - anyone tell me if this was the lap band op or not?) in Mexico. This trip had multiple tijuana medical trips prior to 5/1.

My observation here as to mapping it is that feasibly,
Keyes and Kim had stayed in Napa 4/29,
went southbound to Tijuana for this OP 4/30, returned and were in Calistoga as of 5/1, and then proceeded to go to nearby Santa Rosa the day after Noah Myoung disappears 1.5 hours south in San Bruno, which they already passed by the day before. Meaning- Keyes easily could have driven that, basically backtracking, timing it with an 'escape'.

Now, The timing with Kim - She was probably rested up at the hotel after her spa day recovering from "COSMED" or just chilling. But the same day she does that, Keyes in this scenario could easily have just dipped out for a while, as he rented that kayak and possibly (or as an alibi) camped in heraldsburg the night of 5/1. IK and Kim had radically different schedules that day and night of 5/1.

So, Keyes says he's camping, makes the transaction there (was this site at 2411 Alexander Valley significant or just an alibi?) while in reality he's spending the night fishing for his victim or already scheduled it, driving to san bruno that evening instead, and then abducting/murdering his E taxi service victim into the night. Before this he buys stuff at Calmart in Conestoga as well. (Sounding like Walmart and Jimmy Tidwell a bit? or maybe my pattern recognition deceives me)
After this, Kim and Keyes go to nearby santa rosa and have a 2 day vacation package. (Hello? The caribbean cruise & SK / possible texas victims? Again, a bit of a possible pattern here with distancing from crimes & vacations )

Additionally as a victim, Noah Myoung is an interesting one. If you want to just rob someone, getting a one man private taxi service isn't really the obvious option, it's not even likely he had much money on hand.
But if you're a serial killer, it would be easy pickings. Get him to come to you later in evening with a good offer, take control of the vehicle and victim and have your way.

The other point here that, while it may sound silly i feel is worth pointing out due to how corny Keyes was- Thinking about the case reminds me a bit of the Zodiac murders loosely in MO. And all of this is nearby to Lake Berryessa, SF, etc. Maybe for Keyes that was an aspect he enjoyed given his admiration of his predecessors. Also, where would he dispose of a victim around here?

This seems to me to be quite consistent and would match a lot of what we know of Keyes. Victim and car go missing, small stature of victim, vacations, short timelines, Victim was presumably from online/phone contact like DF.

IMO, Myoung seems like an MP that really can't be ruled out. It's kinda screaming at me after I dug into it more, to be honest. It's also one of the rare times his timeline lines up really well with a reported MP.
I don’t think you’re missing anything. With the info that’s out there Keyes definitely can’t be ruled out, so it’s feasible for sure, but this is a case I struggle with on the actual likelihood of his involvement.

This is also a case where I feel like the FBI has quite a bit more info than what’s been released that probably moves the needle in one direction or the other, but which direction is impossible to say.

With the available info I put this in the like low-medium category of Keyes’ likelihood of involvement (something like 25%), but it’s one I can’t shake based on everything you described. As with the Achermann case I mentioned above, Noah’s case is almost weirder if it was NOT Keyes than if it was.
 
I don’t think you’re missing anything. With the info that’s out there Keyes definitely can’t be ruled out, so it’s feasible for sure, but this is a case I struggle with on the actual likelihood of his involvement.

This is also a case where I feel like the FBI has quite a bit more info than what’s been released that probably moves the needle in one direction or the other, but which direction is impossible to say.

With the available info I put this in the like low-medium category of Keyes’ likelihood of involvement (something like 25%), but it’s one I can’t shake based on everything you described. As with the Achermann case I mentioned above, Noah’s case is almost weirder if it was NOT Keyes than if it was.
That's sort of my thinking too. It's entirely possible Keyes did it as he had a perfect setup to do so and was in the area. At the same time, he could've been skulking around the general area independently of Myoung's disappearance and it's just as likely Myoung is in a body of water by accident or had his brand new vehicle stolen (never appeared again?) on the streets and was.. disposed of :/
 
What's weird is in the case that to me is most similar to Noah's, that of Steven Willard Anderson, he recently was found (in his car in a body of water) and it seems to both not support any of those alternate theories, and also seems to decrease the likelihood of Keyes being involved.

I previously thought his case was in the same likelihood range for Keyes as Noah's, but also thought that an accident was the most likely scenario. He was found in a reservoir with a freeway bridge crossing, but from pictures I've seen it does not look like his car was anywhere near the bridge, which makes an accident unlikely.

Stolen vehicle is obviously out because the vehicle was found, and him with it.

And as it relates to Keyes, the location of the vehicle is much less remote and, for Keyes' purposes, way out of the way from Flaming Gorge where Steven was headed (and would likely have been abducted from if it was Keyes). But for Steven's purposes, the location was directly on the way to his destination.

This by no means rules Keyes out, but I don't see why he would move a victim from a more remote location into one with much more traffic*, and even if he did, it would be incredible bad luck to have moved him to a place that happened to be directly on his route from point A to point B.

So I guess in Steven's case based on the limited information since he was found, it would seem that it's most likely suicide, with a very outside chance of Keyes (or someone else) being responsible?


*Although as I've noted before, Keyes possibly did this same thing when sinking the Lake Crescent victim...
 
What's weird is in the case that to me is most similar to Noah's, that of Steven Willard Anderson, he recently was found (in his car in a body of water) and it seems to both not support any of those alternate theories, and also seems to decrease the likelihood of Keyes being involved.

I previously thought his case was in the same likelihood range for Keyes as Noah's, but also thought that an accident was the most likely scenario. He was found in a reservoir with a freeway bridge crossing, but from pictures I've seen it does not look like his car was anywhere near the bridge, which makes an accident unlikely.

Stolen vehicle is obviously out because the vehicle was found, and him with it.

And as it relates to Keyes, the location of the vehicle is much less remote and, for Keyes' purposes, way out of the way from Flaming Gorge where Steven was headed (and would likely have been abducted from if it was Keyes). But for Steven's purposes, the location was directly on the way to his destination.

This by no means rules Keyes out, but I don't see why he would move a victim from a more remote location into one with much more traffic*, and even if he did, it would be incredible bad luck to have moved him to a place that happened to be directly on his route from point A to point B.

So I guess in Steven's case based on the limited information since he was found, it would seem that it's most likely suicide, with a very outside chance of Keyes (or someone else) being responsible?


*Although as I've noted before, Keyes possibly did this same thing when sinking the Lake Crescent victim...
Keyes himself said someone was mistaken for an accident victim…

Isn’t that the fun thing. That statement of his makes me give the side eye to so many cases.
 
The “Ellensburg couple” info came from Keyes himself, Halla talks about it. Keyes gave vague info about the location of the murder/disposal and the female victim (but not the male for some reason).

There is not really any reason to believe they are specifically connected to Ellensburg, or that they are a “couple” as such—just a male/female pair of some kind. Because he described the woman as “older” but did not state anything like this about the man, I kind of lean away from them being an actual couple.

Re: the FBI’s current victim count, it’s interesting that TCBS released something after the season ended in which they went through a similar exercise to what I did, but for a different reason. But they included a reference that I’d never heard of where Keyes apparently said something like his first murder went perfectly, so their “known” victim count was 12 instead of 11 unless that murder was in Canada.

If that’s true, that means either his first murder was before he got out of the army (in contrast to what the FBI thinks) or my theory that the accident victim was the first one post-army is wrong.
I know where he talks about Ellensburg. But he doesn’t connect Ellensburg to the couple anywhere. I think that’s just an assumption someone has made, and it has since become part of the Keyes mythos. If you’ve heard him actually connect his talk about Ellensburg and east and west WA to the couple, please let me know where. He said (or wrote) the woman of the couple was “older”, whatever that means. I’ve looked into so many missing persons cases looking for this couple it’s driving me crazy! There was Candance Giebel (born 1981) that went missing with Henry Peters, her boyfriend but he was much older. From around Vancouver, BC, 8/1/02. I read somewhere that they might have been travelling. That could have taken them down to Ellensburg. But he’s still much older than her. I still think they could possibly be the couple.
 
I know where he talks about Ellensburg. But he doesn’t connect Ellensburg to the couple anywhere. I think that’s just an assumption someone has made, and it has since become part of the Keyes mythos. If you’ve heard him actually connect his talk about Ellensburg and east and west WA to the couple, please let me know where. He said (or wrote) the woman of the couple was “older”, whatever that means. I’ve looked into so many missing persons cases looking for this couple it’s driving me crazy! There was Candance Giebel (born 1981) that went missing with Henry Peters, her boyfriend but he was much older. From around Vancouver, BC, 8/1/02. I read somewhere that they might have been travelling. That could have taken them down to Ellensburg. But he’s still much older than her. I still think they could possibly be the couple.
I’m confused - in the post you quoted I said point blank the same thing you did, that there is no actual known connection to Ellensburg with the couple or their disappearance.

Based on Keyes’ description of the murder site, TCBS is guessing it was somewhere in the eastern district, and the FBI seems to also be assuming that for reasons that are not 100% clear to me. I think they are most likely correct, but it’s definitely not confirmed in any way.

That’s a really interesting find on the Vancouver couple, I never heard of that case and need to look into it but sounds… promising, for lack of a better term? I’ve never been able to find a couple that fits either, and for a long time have assumed there had to be an outside-the-box explanation. And a Canadian couple is both inside the box and in a sense literally outside of it.
 
I’m confused - in the post you quoted I said point blank the same thing you did, that there is no actual known connection to Ellensburg with the couple or their disappearance.

Based on Keyes’ description of the murder site, TCBS is guessing it was somewhere in the eastern district, and the FBI seems to also be assuming that for reasons that are not 100% clear to me. I think they are most likely correct, but it’s definitely not confirmed in any way.

That’s a really interesting find on the Vancouver couple, I never heard of that case and need to look into it but sounds… promising, for lack of a better term? I’ve never been able to find a couple that fits either, and for a long time have assumed there had to be an outside-the-box explanation. And a Canadian couple is both inside the box and in a sense literally outside of it.
My English is not always the best, I’m sorry about that. Clearly, I misunderstood your first reply, sorry about that. About Candance Giebel and Henry Peters: some people thought the couple was or had gone travelling. Many years later there are people on her Facebook writing “please come back”. Maybe they did go over to the States. Do you know verbatim how Keyes said what he said about the woman being older? Could the agents have gotten it wrong? I’ve noticed they sometimes ask him something and he just says yes, doesn’t correct them. It’s possible this couple actually made it over to WA, and then encountered Keyes somewhere. Maybe even around Ellensburg.
 
My English is not always the best, I’m sorry about that. Clearly, I misunderstood your first reply, sorry about that. About Candance Giebel and Henry Peters: some people thought the couple was or had gone travelling. Many years later there are people on her Facebook writing “please come back”. Maybe they did go over to the States. Do you know verbatim how Keyes said what he said about the woman being older? Could the agents have gotten it wrong? I’ve noticed they sometimes ask him something and he just says yes, doesn’t correct them. It’s possible this couple actually made it over to WA, and then encountered Keyes somewhere. Maybe even around Ellensburg.
No worries at all.

Unfortunately I don't know verbatim what Keyes said about the woman. As far as I know the FBI has never released that interview, it's just discussed by Halla and TCBS. It's hard to imagine how the agents would have gotten it wrong unless Keyes was saying something to the effect of "she looked older than she was" (which was true of Candace). It's a stretch but I guess I could see that.

I think it's more likely, if Candace and Henry were the couple, that it was a "minor" obfuscation on Keyes' part saying that the woman was older when in fact it was the man.

Another thing I'm going to have to check, I think Keyes said he killed the couple next to their car* - if correct that means Candace and Henry would need to have a car, which seems to be unclear if they did or not when they disappeared. I guess even if that's wrong though, most of Washington is not accessible unless you have a car, so it's pretty safe to say whoever the couple was they probably had one either way.


*I know for sure he did say this about the "wealthy grandmother" victim so it's not a mix-up. I think he noted this about the couple as well, but he might have said it was next to HIS car - that's what I need to verify.
 
IIRC, there have been several serial killers with wives/long term relationships who had no idea what they were up to......

It really doesn't surprise me at all. SK's are master manipulators/liars who spend their entire lives covering up who they really are. But that central female relationship they have they desperately want to keep and have to go outside that relationship to satisfy their base urges...IMVHO.
Children, too.

I think they keep their families and even treat them well because it is their last anchor to "sanity". Or perhaps, they view the families as part of "themselves".
 
I also think he will have way more than 11 victims and I have always stated, he studied Bundy...well he has already traveled more miles than Bundy and I feel he will have more victims than Bundy...it was kinda like a game of I'M BETTER than you Bundy I feel in his sick mind
It has now been reported by 2 people on another site that he also was known to be homeless (I don't think so) but on FB one lady wrote and said she met him while in a certain part of Calif. she was homeless and said he used to come late at night and sit with the regular's and smoke weed with them, but they grew suspicious of him truly being homeless because they said he appeared too clean to have lived on the streets as they did, but she also said that during his visits they started noticing that a lot of homeless regulars begin disappearing and then he just quit stopping by....and one man met him in E. Tenn. at a homeless shelter, said he had absolutely no bags of any kind and slept there one night, he said he asked him how did he protect himself from the weather and etc....said he looked up and said "God provides everything I need" and took off walking...MOO....I think there was and will be so much more to IK story.....Yes I believe he frequented homeless shelters and communities.....he knew they could not really defend themselves and they were probably easy targets for him to lure away from safety, but I do NOT think he was ever homeless.....I think he had a rented vehicle parked somewhere hidden from the area he was staying at the time and I feel that some of those rental vehicles may possibly had victims hidden in them and I feel this is why I think he went to shelters and homeless communities....he could feel safe and not have to check into a motel...that way his name would not be connected to motels and etc....but this is moo only

The fact that he targeted people that no one might miss reminds me of Bisza killer Alexander Pichushkin. He mostly targeted older homeless alcoholics. Interestingly, he was smart and planned well, but even in prison, he periodically has impulses to murder. That prison is known for its population, and yet most violent murderers are afraid of him. Pichushkin suffered from traumatic brain encephalopathy.
One wonders if IK also had brain trauma, migraines or seizures. Keyes he grew up in an extremely odd family so maybe there is more in his genetics than we think. Yet I always wonder...
 
No worries at all.

Unfortunately I don't know verbatim what Keyes said about the woman. As far as I know the FBI has never released that interview, it's just discussed by Halla and TCBS. It's hard to imagine how the agents would have gotten it wrong unless Keyes was saying something to the effect of "she looked older than she was" (which was true of Candace). It's a stretch but I guess I could see that.

I think it's more likely, if Candace and Henry were the couple, that it was a "minor" obfuscation on Keyes' part saying that the woman was older when in fact it was the man.

Another thing I'm going to have to check, I think Keyes said he killed the couple next to their car* - if correct that means Candace and Henry would need to have a car, which seems to be unclear if they did or not when they disappeared. I guess even if that's wrong though, most of Washington is not accessible unless you have a car, so it's pretty safe to say whoever the couple was they probably had one either way.


*I know for sure he did say this about the "wealthy grandmother" victim so it's not a mix-up. I think he noted this about the couple as well, but he might have said it was next to HIS car - that's what I need to verify.
He did say the abduction place was the same as the crimescene, don’t know which victim/s that was about. If you find the info about car/no car, please let me know. I only remember ”a valley, could hear cars/the traffic nearby” in connection to the couple. I envision a valley with a motorway or road somewhere close. It’s weird to think he would have done all he did somewhere with people so close by. Then again, he also planned to ”just do his thing” in that closed for the night parkinglot (in Earthquake park maybe or Lyn Ary) with the couple in the car. And clearly the abduction of SK was brazen too. One of the most important aspects when committing a crime is to keep moving, being fast. Keyes definitely knew this. The B.C. couple might have had a car. Would they even plan to travel without one? Doesn’t almost everyone in the States drive? But the age difference is still a problem. Remember, ”I could give you enough to get me, but not get me”?
 
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He did say the abduction place was the same as the crimescene, don’t know which victim/s that was about. If you find the info about car/no car, please let me know. I only remember ”a valley, could hear cars/the traffic nearby” in connection to the couple. I envision a valley with a motorway or road somewhere close. It’s weird to think he would have done all he did somewhere with people so close by. Then again, he also planned to ”just do his thing” in that closed for the night parkinglot (in Earthquake park maybe or Lyn Ary) with the couple in the car. And clearly the abduction of SK was brazen too. One of the most important aspects when committing a crime is to keep moving, being fast. Keyes definitely knew this. The B.C. couple might have had a car. Would they even plan to travel without one? Doesn’t almost everyone in the States drive? But the age difference is still a problem. Remember, ”I could give you enough to get me, but not get me”?
I’m almost positive the case he said that about was the wealthy grandmother victim, but when I find the discussion about the couple I’m also going to see if he said something similar there. I looked around for the clip a bit today but couldn’t find it.

Also you’re right that almost everyone in the US drives, but you can easily travel from Vancouver down the west coast by train. Whether you need a car just depends where you’re trying to go.

Another thing about the BC couple that I didn’t think of right away, it looked like they were involved with drugs - I’m not sure if they had criminal records or not, but if they did they might not have been able to get through the border, at least by normal means.
 
I’m almost positive the case he said that about was the wealthy grandmother victim, but when I find the discussion about the couple I’m also going to see if he said something similar there. I looked around for the clip a bit today but couldn’t find it.

Also you’re right that almost everyone in the US drives, but you can easily travel from Vancouver down the west coast by train. Whether you need a car just depends where you’re trying to go.

Another thing about the BC couple that I didn’t think of right away, it looked like they were involved with drugs - I’m not sure if they had criminal records or not, but if they did they might not have been able to get through the border, at least by normal means.
Agent Halla says in the TCBS episode from around Christmas last year that the when he was either burying or assaulting the couple he could see a valley down below and hear some watersource near by. And that there were pines on the ground. The pines don’t help much, since there are pines all over Washington, and not like a valley and water can pin it down either.
With the dark haired girl the abduction place was also the crime scene. I’d guess maybe an empty parkinglot maybe, in car or outside of car. Kind of like what he planned with that couple in the park, and also the just married couple on the east coast. If it worked before, it probably will work again -thinking.
 

Snipped...
...⁸Israel Keyes is a serial killer whose crimes spanned several states, including Vermont.

He confessed to the 2011 murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier in Essex. He also confessed to murdering 18-year-old Samantha Koenig in Alaska, and he is suspected of several other killings.

Keyes died by suicide in 2012 in prison while awaiting trial.
 

Snipped...
...⁸Israel Keyes is a serial killer whose crimes spanned several states, including Vermont.

He confessed to the 2011 murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier in Essex. He also confessed to murdering 18-year-old Samantha Koenig in Alaska, and he is suspected of several other killings.

Keyes died by suicide in 2012 in prison while awaiting trial.

Judging by the possible sightings, it looks like he stalked people in Vermont on multiple occasions.
 
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Figured it was worth posting here, the Cassie & Marlene Emerson case finally has a suspect in custody. Small development in the Keyes case in a way. I never pegged him for it but this pretty much rules it out completely.

Glad to see they finally have justice, and that there was a surviving suspect.

Man Arrested in Connection with 27-Year-Old Double Homicide Cold Case | U.S. Marshals Service
Wasn’t there an arrest made last year already? December or November. Or is this a new arrest?
 

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