Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[29 Acacia Road]

I presume the FBI checked the blood skull drawings under different light sources in case he decided to leave any other clues (dates, initials etc) using other bodily fluids......

 

[MesquiteO21]

I presume the FBI checked the blood skull drawings under different light sources in case he decided to leave any other clues (dates, initials etc) using other bodily fluids......

i hope so. All the skulls are so generic and don’t help at all (from what I can see), so I’m left wondering why they chose to release them at all

 

[29 Acacia Road]

i hope so. All the skulls are so generic and don’t help at all (from what I can see), so I’m left wondering why they chose to release them at all

Yes the skulls were not much help at all, can't even see a difference between male or female potential victims. I definitely think Keyes' would be weird enough to write or draw clues in hos own semen. In fact I hope they searched every inch of his cell for blood or semen because there are lots of places he could've left a little clue, the skulls could well have been a red herring by him.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Yes the skulls were not much help at all, can't even see a difference between male or female potential victims. I definitely think Keyes' would be weird enough to write or draw clues in hos own semen. In fact I hope they searched every inch of his cell for blood or semen because there are lots of places he could've left a little clue, the skulls could well have been a red herring by him.

He was really creepy and gross.

 

[darthsunshine]

I've been looking into this and I think, based on the description and potential connections to NAMUS 44, there's a possibility this could be referring to Anita Scott.

Anita Scott – The Charley Project

-She definitely appears to have "pale skin"

-She had not a wealthy grandmother, but a wealthy uncle, who left her millions of dollars when he died

-She drove a '86 Volkswagen, which is notably kind of odd for someone of her age and means (and we also know that Keyes specifically differentiated between newer and older style VW's from his description of the "newer" VW bug that his near-victim in Vermont drove)


And she could be linked to the NAMUS 44 as follows:

-Richard Petrone and Danielle Imbo disappeared on 2/19 or early 2/20 of 2005, from Philadelphia

-Anita disappeared on 2/20/2003, from just outside Philadelphia, and her car was subsequently found in Philadelphia

-(slightly more tenuous) Tony Luzio from NAMUS 44 disappeared from Delaware County, Ohio; Anita disappeared from Delaware County, Pennsylvania


I am up to date on TCBS now, but I didn't write down the timeline of when Keyes is/isn't accounted for outside of the FBI timeline, so I'm not sure if her disappearance clashes with those dates, but as far as I know it does not. I do know, though, that Josh strongly believes there is at least one unknown victim from PA, although his rationale for that was somewhat more vague than most of his strong beliefs related to Keyes.

Thoughts?

**Ok late to the party here--I've lurked for two years and now reading through the vast number of posts.** I think this is very plausible. Knowing he researched by date/location, and not-so-much exact names (but the Curriers on his computer...?) I'm hoping Josh adds this to case to next season to deep dive.

 

[Murkywaters]

I presume the FBI checked the blood skull drawings under different light sources in case he decided to leave any other clues (dates, initials etc) using other bodily fluids......

Speaking of the other clues Keyes may have left in his jail cell, aside from the blood skull sketches, I do recall from the TCB podcast, Keyes did write the word ''Corozal'' on his cell wall before he died. This is a reference to his 2005 Belize trip.

On Oct 3, 2005 IK flew from Los Angeles to El Salvador, he then rented a car in Belize on Oct 6, meaning he would have crossed through Guatemala. Josh discovered the itinerary of this trip coincided with Hurricane Stan which was due to hit Belize on Oct 4. Remember Keyes told the FBI he planned on exploiting natural disasters so he could murder people.

Josh did say in the podcast, the FBI reached out to the Belize police to see if anyone disappeared during Keyes ''trip'' There was two murders that occurred during the time he was there, (sadly unsurprising considering the crime rate there). However, there was a Mexican national, named Tomas Perez who disappeared from Corozal during this time frame. The exact date and circumstances of his disappearance is unknown. All is known about him is that he had just moved to Belize from Mexico with his wife, who reported him missing after he failed to return to their residence one evening. Tomas and his wife lived in Corozal, Belize at the time.

 

[Shboogies]

I presume the FBI checked the blood skull drawings under different light sources in case he decided to leave any other clues (dates, initials etc) using other bodily fluids......

I really believe those skulls were a last “ you im smarter than you.” To the FBI. He knew he killed way more than 11 and he knew they totally fell for his bs when he agreed with the less than a dozen. He wanted to keep them thinking it was much less than it actually is in hopes they’d never realize the full scale of his time as a serial killer.

 

[MajorHoople]

Do think they’ve investigated him for the disappearance of Rebecca Reid. Similar to his final crime, kidnapped and robbed the store...the sketch of the suspect is eerily similar to his look when he robbed the bank.

That does sound like something Israel Keyes would have done. BTW, there is a new thread devoted to the disappearance of Rebecca Kathleen Reid.

Oregon, Eugene: Rebecca Kathleen Reid abduction 1997 cold case

 

[Penny4YourThoughts]

Speaking of the other clues Keyes may have left in his jail cell, aside from the blood skull sketches, I do recall from the TCB podcast, Keyes did write the word ''Corozal'' on his cell wall before he died. This is a reference to his 2005 Belize trip.

On Oct 3, 2005 IK flew from Los Angeles to El Salvador, he then rented a car in Belize on Oct 6, meaning he would have crossed through Guatemala. Josh discovered the itinerary of this trip coincided with Hurricane Stan which was due to hit Belize on Oct 4. Remember Keyes told the FBI he planned on exploiting natural disasters so he could murder people.

Josh did say in the podcast, the FBI reached out to the Belize police to see if anyone disappeared during Keyes ''trip'' There was two murders that occurred during the time he was there, (sadly unsurprising considering the crime rate there). However, there was a Mexican national, named Tomas Perez who disappeared from Corozal during this time frame. The exact date and circumstances of his disappearance is unknown. All is known about him is that he had just moved to Belize from Mexico with his wife, who reported him missing after he failed to return to their residence one evening. Tomas and his wife lived in Corozal, Belize at the time.

Great sleuthing

 

[Iwatchingeye]

I'm listening to the last episode of season 2 of TCB and he is talking about sightings of Keyes and other males in wooded areas with shovels and things. My first thought was his brothers helping in hide caches and with them being used to living "off the grid" that might not seems unusual to them to do that. Then I thought what if he made men that he abducted help him dig holes (for whatever reason) thinking he'd let them go if they did. I know it might be a stretch but I, like most of my fellow websleuthers, know it is very difficult to dig a sizeable hole to hide things.

 

[Steviann]

I just finished reading American Predator. Heres a few points that I'm curious if they connect at all. I was curious about the moment when Keyes mentions to FBI that he gave most of his bomb-making stuff away before he went up to Alaska. Who did he gives these to? His old military buddy who made the statement that he was surprised that Keys got caught, not that he did the crimes. Were they still in contact? A possible witness who has seen Keyes, said she saw him walking with another man. Who?

 

[KinseyWannabe]

Great sleuthing

Yes, Josh Hallmark's work is amazing!

 

[MesquiteO21]

I'm listening to the last episode of season 2 of TCB and he is talking about sightings of Keyes and other males in wooded areas with shovels and things. My first thought was his brothers helping in hide caches and with them being used to living "off the grid" that might not seems unusual to them to do that. Then I thought what if he made men that he abducted help him dig holes (for whatever reason) thinking he'd let them go if they did. I know it might be a stretch but I, like most of my fellow websleuthers, know it is very difficult to dig a sizeable hole to hide things.

i definitely think that's a possibility. We know that poor Samantha thought for quite awhile that he was just going to extort money from her dad and then let her go. And he certainly wouldn't be the first killer to make a victim do some kind of work before the murder.

 

[FearOfEdEdwards]

Imo, it is doubtful that IK would use a pawnshop due to the ID requirements & LE monitoring. Pawnshop's pawn tickets are monitored by local PD monthly.
Imo, IK would have only stolen small valuable objects; cash, firearms, jewelry/diamonds, gold & silver bullion/coins. Imo, he would have buried it in his caches with the cash from his bank robberies.
Gold/diamonds/jewelry, is often traded for drugs. This may explain IK's Mexico trips..

Imo, IK would not have taken the info of the location of these caches to the grave. Imo, someone knows the cache locations.. Sure hope his home was searched with a fine toothed comb.. The shed or imediate area where IK held SK would be a likely place to hide maps, etc.

An old treasure hunting friend of mine told me that folks who don't trust banks, etc., will many times hide/bury their money in a location that they can see from their bedroom window..

I live right outside Philadelphia and know quite a few pawn shops that will buy silver gold and diamonds without ID. Think about it. If they are proven to have stolen jewels. The police just take it and they’re out whatever they paid. If theres no record then there is nothing for the police to take.

 

[Flyrian]

I've read the two books and I'm also following the TCBS podcast, which is one of the best true crime podcasts I've followed until now.

Ironically IK created a mystery about himself, although this is exactly the opposite, what he wanted.

Although I'm following the progress of the TCBS investigation, I'm more interested in the psychological aspect than sleuthing, who could be another victim.
Honestly I've lost a bit the overview of the possible victims and in the upcoming season there will be presented up to 10 more possible victims. I think, that there was a list on WS with the possible victims. Would be interesting to have it updated.

Thanks to TCBS we know now that the Courrier and SK murder was premeditated and not just opportunity murders as IK always presented them.
Why do you think IK wanted the FBI to believe, that these murders weren't planned beforehand?

 

[dub]

I've read the two books and I'm also following the TCBS podcast, which is one of the best true crime podcasts I've followed until now.

Ironically IK created a mystery about himself, although this is exactly the opposite, what he wanted.

Although I'm following the progress of the TCBS investigation, I'm more interested in the psychological aspect than sleuthing, who could be another victim.
Honestly I've lost a bit the overview of the possible victims and in the upcoming season there will be presented up to 10 more possible victims. I think, that there was a list on WS with the possible victims. Would be interesting to have it updated.

Thanks to TCBS we know now that the Courrier and SK murder was premeditated and not just opportunity murders as IK always presented them.
Why do you think IK wanted the FBI to believe, that these murders weren't planned beforehand?

BBM this is a great question. I can think of a couple possibilities off-hand.

I think the simplest (and maybe most likely) explanation is it's just minimizing the depth of his crimes--like, characterizing the murders as spur of the moment in his mind looks less horrendous than if he had extensively pre-planned them. Same basic deal as not wanting to provide the true number of victims.

Another possibility is that extensive pre-planning suggests a high level of control and foresight. He may have wanted to mask the fact that he did indeed have these characteristics from the FBI so that in negotiations they would be less likely to think that he had a broader "agenda".

I'm sure there are many other possibilities, but these were the first two things that came to mind.


Re: the list of potential victims, I don't remember there being a comprehensive one on WS, and I definitely don't think there's been a recent update reflecting things that have come to light via the TCBS podcast.

I have a list of my own possibilities that I put together either during or shortly after the most recent season of TCBS, not sure where it is off hand but I'll post it if I can track it down.

 

[Flyrian]

I guess, you could be right.
At the end the whole IK case is one of the most weird cases.

IK claims a MO before his known murders, which can't be proven as his known murders were really different to them.

IK also claimed, that the last years were his most prolific ones.
If this is true, perhaps a body count between 10-20 could be realistic, but who knows.

To find the other caches would be really important, I think.
But also Josh was realistic, when he mentions, that even finding one or two bodies would be a huge success.

 

[dub]

I guess, you could be right.
At the end the whole IK case is one of the most weird cases.

IK claims a MO before his known murders, which can't be proven as his known murders were really different to them.

IK also claimed, that the last years were his most prolific ones.
If this is true, perhaps a body count between 10-20 could be realistic, but who knows.

To find the other caches would be really important, I think.
But also Josh was realistic, when he mentions, that even finding one or two bodies would be a huge success.

I'm with you, the whole case is bizarre beyond belief.

I think the high end of the 10-20 range could be realistic, yeah. I'm not one who thinks he had an astronomical number of victims--I've seen it posited that he had 60-80 or more than that--but I think the true number is probably like 25-30.

I also have a feeling that included in that number are several victims who were in fact found very shortly after the murders, or at least found well before Keyes was arrested. I don't have a clue who exactly these victims are, or how many, but they were probably predominantly early in his "career".

Look up Nick Swigart, who I think is an outside possibility for the "accident victim", for a good example of what I'm talking about. His case involves a boat ramp, a seemingly moved vehicle, AND a fire. Keyes was most likely not involved in that strange case, but the parallels are too much to ignore until proven otherwise. That's the kind of scenario I'm on the lookout for in terms of "found" victims.

 

[Flyrian]

I also have a feeling that included in that number are several victims who were in fact found very shortly after the murders, or at least found well before Keyes was arrested. I don't have a clue who exactly these victims are, or how many, but they were probably predominantly early in his "career".

I'm not sure about that.
According to him they weren't found and there was only little media coverage about the missing persons, at least in comparison to the SK case.

The accident victim leaves us a lot of room for speculation as he didn't give the FBI any details about what happened.
Does Nick Swigart fit the timeline?

 

[dub]

I'm not sure about that.
According to him they weren't found and there was only little media coverage about the missing persons, at least in comparison to the SK case.

The accident victim leaves us a lot of room for speculation as he didn't give the FBI any details about what happened.
Does Nick Swigart fit the timeline?

I know it's a fool's errand to try to pick and choose which of Keyes' statements are true vs which are lies (and, even more so, trying to figure out the nature of his lies), but at this point it's kind of necessary, especially if we're trying to get at the psychology of the case.

That being said, I think it's probably true that MOST of Keyes' victims were not found and did not receive extensive media coverage, but my read on it is that the ones who were found and/or did receive a lot of coverage are the exact ones that Keyes was most trying to avoid discussing. But I could obviously be wrong on that.

Nick Swigart died (and I believe was likely murdered) in January 2003, which is in a huge dead zone in the timeline.