Italy’s Highest Appeals Court to Decide Amanda Knox’s Fate

[otto]

Sorry but there is. There is double jeopardy when you are found guilty and acquitted on the same facts and then found guilty again on the same facts. That is double jeopardy whether they call it that or not.

The entire double jeopardy suggestion is based on US law, which states that the prosecutor cannot appeal a verdict. The belief, in the US, is that if a prosecutor can appeal a verdict, and the appeal is successful, then there is double jeopardy.

Let's look way up, across the border to that beautiful country in the North: Canada. In that country, there is double jeopardy, but the prosecutor can appeal a verdict. If the verdict is overturned, then the earlier trial judgement is annulled. Hard to believe, but this is exactly what happened in Italy.

Rather than suggest that US law should be imposed on the courts in Italy, let's impose Canadian law on the courts in Italy ... or rather, let's respect Canadian law and Italian law and accept the fact that Knox and Sollecito's acquittal was annulled by law.

The double jeopardy suggestion seems to hinge on the belief that US law applies to US citizens when they are convicted of a criminal offence in a foreign country. Is there any basis for that belief, or is merely a wish? Per US law, should Knox have had her appeals denied and been put to death shortly after she was convicted of murder?

 

[iluvmua]

My two cents about Mr. RS and his options:

Scenario 1: He and AK are both involved in the murder.
He should do the right thing and confess before the final verdict comes out and spend the time in jail in order to get some degree of redemption.

Scenario 2: Only he is guilty and AK is totally innocent.
He should do the same as above, just declare that AK is innocent. MKs family gets some closure and AK gets her reputation back at least.

Scenario 3: He is innocent and knows for a fact that AK is involved in the murder.
Too late to rat AK out. He had his shot. He chose AK over justice. Now suffer for that.

Scenario 4: He knows for a fact that both he and AK are innocent.
Pray to high heaven that the final verdict is in his favor.


Yeah not much of a options stack for this young man. I wouldn't wanna be him.

I think this is what he is trying to do now, but it is too late. He yet again changed his alibi and is now trying to throw amanda under the bus.

jmo

 

[dgfred]

Hooray... so good to see you Otto. I hope you are doing well and staying out of trouble

 

[iluvmua]

I expect a ruling late friday evening jmo

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The entire double jeopardy suggestion is based on US law, which states that the prosecutor cannot appeal a verdict. The belief, in the US, is that if a prosecutor can appeal a verdict, and the appeal is successful, then there is double jeopardy.

Let's look way up, across the border to that beautiful country in the North: Canada. In that country, there is double jeopardy, but the prosecutor can appeal a verdict. If the verdict is overturned, then the earlier trial judgement is annulled. Hard to believe, but this is exactly what happened in Italy.

Rather than suggest that US law should be imposed on the courts in Italy, let's impose Canadian law on the courts in Italy ... or rather, let's respect Canadian law and Italian law and accept the fact that Knox and Sollecito's acquittal was annulled by law.

The double jeopardy suggestion seems to hinge on the belief that US law applies to US citizens when they are convicted of a criminal offence in a foreign country. Is there any basis for that belief, or is merely a wish? Per US law, should Knox have had her appeals denied and been put to death shortly after she was convicted of murder?

Yes it is. I understand that and it applies here.
What matters to me is that if this ridiculous court calls her guilty again and tries to extradite her, that the US says no. And I think they will.
The treaty has a clause that they do not have to send anyone back when double jeopardy applies as it does here.
So I don't care for the Italian system. I am completely thrilled that my Great Grandmother and Grandfather moved here and no one I love is subject to this system.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

My two cents about Mr. RS and his options:

Scenario 1: He and AK are both involved in the murder.
He should do the right thing and confess before the final verdict comes out and spend the time in jail in order to get some degree of redemption.

Scenario 2: Only he is guilty and AK is totally innocent.
He should do the same as above, just declare that AK is innocent. MKs family gets some closure and AK gets her reputation back at least.

Scenario 3: He is innocent and knows for a fact that AK is involved in the murder.
Too late to rat AK out. He had his shot. He chose AK over justice. Now suffer for that.

Scenario 4: He knows for a fact that both he and AK are innocent.
Pray to high heaven that the final verdict is in his favor.


Yeah not much of a options stack for this young man. I wouldn't wanna be him.

I think they are both innocent and should be free. I think at this point they are just trying to play the best way to stay free.

 

[iluvmua]

Yes it is. I understand that and it applies here.
What matters to me is that if this ridiculous court calls her guilty again and tries to extradite her, that the US says no. And I think they will.
The treaty has a clause that they do not have to send anyone back when double jeopardy applies as it does here.
So I don't care for the Italian system. I am completely thrilled that my Great Grandmother and Grandfather moved here and no one I love is subject to this system.

This is if a defendant was tried in the USA. Amanda was NOT tried on american soil. Double Jeopardy has no bearing on this case what so ever.

If the verdict is upheld, the state department would legally have no reason not to deport her. She got a fair trial both times, Italian law was followed, she is a convicted felon etc.

If she didn't want to go back to prison then she should not have helped in the brutal slaughter of Meredith.

MOO

 

[Amber29]

Yes it is. I understand that and it applies here.
What matters to me is that if this ridiculous court calls her guilty again and tries to extradite her, that the US says no. And I think they will.
The treaty has a clause that they do not have to send anyone back when double jeopardy applies as it does here.
So I don't care for the Italian system. I am completely thrilled that my Great Grandmother and Grandfather moved here and no one I love is subject to this system.

I get that you are entitled to your opinion but legally double jeopardy does not apply here, so please stop stating your misunderstanding as a fact.
Here is a great article to read.
http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/double-jeopardy-isnt-think-wont-save-amanda-knox-78669

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This is if a defendant was tried in the USA. Amanda was NOT tried on american soil. Double Jeopardy has no bearing on this case what so ever.

MOO

Yes it does. If their justice system finds her guilty again on the same evidence that is double jeopardy and because of that the us would not have to send her back.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I get that you are entitled to your opinion but legally double jeopardy does not apply here, so please stop stating your misunderstanding as a fact.
He's a great article to read.
http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/double-jeopardy-isnt-think-wont-save-amanda-knox-78669

It does and I am not misunderstanding.

"And while some legal experts contend Knox could very well be extradited, others say U.S. officials could refuse to hand over Knox by leaning on a double-jeopardy clause included in the extradition treaty between the two countries.

"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested," the treaty states.

And Knox was, according to M. Cherif Bassiouni, a former U.N. lawyer and international extradition law expert.

American and Italian officials may interpret the treaty's double-jeopardy clause differently based on their own judicial systems, but Bassiouni said no interpretation would pass muster.

"Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be ... Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct," Bassiouni wrote in an Oxford University Press blog post. "Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times.""

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

Ill take this expert opinion with the credentials over all of our opinions any day.

 

[iluvmua]

Yes it does. If their justice system finds her guilty again on the same evidence that is double jeopardy and because of that the us would not have to send her back.

Amanda has already been found guilty, twice. This is the final appeal to the court to see if the guilty verdicts will stand.

 

[Amber29]

It does and I am not misunderstanding.

"And while some legal experts contend Knox could very well be extradited, others say U.S. officials could refuse to hand over Knox by leaning on a double-jeopardy clause included in the extradition treaty between the two countries.

"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested," the treaty states.

And Knox was, according to M. Cherif Bassiouni, a former U.N. lawyer and international extradition law expert.

American and Italian officials may interpret the treaty's double-jeopardy clause differently based on their own judicial systems, but Bassiouni said no interpretation would pass muster.

"Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be ... Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct," Bassiouni wrote in an Oxford University Press blog post. "Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times.""

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

Ill take this expert opinion with the credentials over all of our opinions any day.

I can do the same thing you just did, did you happen to the read the article I linked?
From it
"The only legal argument that Knox, her lawyers, and other advocates have made thus far is that she should be protected by America’s commitment to preventing double jeopardy. They claim that Article VI of the U.S. extradition treaty with Italy incorporates the American meaning of double jeopardy. But the Article only relieves the U.S. of its obligation to extradite if the subject is charged with the same crime at home. Even if the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Constitution were in question, it would offer Knox scant hope.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I can do the same thing you just did, did you happen to the read the article I linked?

I am done with this. I have an opinion backed up by an international lawyer.
I won't be swayed in this case. I don't believe that she will be sent back.

 

[dgfred]

A former lawyer's opinion over what is written as law. Scant hope is correct... but it has been that way for a long time IMO.

 

[Amber29]

A former lawyer's opinion over what is written as law. Scant hope is correct... but it has been that way for a long time IMO.

Yes I just don't get where the U.S. could ever get away with a denial of extradition in a case like this, considering they would essentially be saying our system is the only one that matters. That just wouldn't sit well IMO with other countries who have similar systems to Italy's and treaties with the U.S.. In that prosecutors in MANY coutries have the right to appeal, this not a situation that is unique to only Italy.

 

[magnolia]

I get that you are entitled to your opinion but legally double jeopardy does not apply here, so please stop stating your misunderstanding as a fact.
Here is a great article to read.
http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/double-jeopardy-isnt-think-wont-save-amanda-knox-78669

Very good article. It explains all very clearly.

 

[magnolia]

It does and I am not misunderstanding.

"And while some legal experts contend Knox could very well be extradited, others say U.S. officials could refuse to hand over Knox by leaning on a double-jeopardy clause included in the extradition treaty between the two countries.

"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested," the treaty states.

And Knox was, according to M. Cherif Bassiouni, a former U.N. lawyer and international extradition law expert.

American and Italian officials may interpret the treaty's double-jeopardy clause differently based on their own judicial systems, but Bassiouni said no interpretation would pass muster.

"Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be ... Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct," Bassiouni wrote in an Oxford University Press blog post. "Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times.""

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

Ill take this expert opinion with the credentials over all of our opinions any day.

BBM

The only legal argument that Knox, her lawyers, and other advocates have made thus far is that she should be protected by America’s commitment to preventing double jeopardy. They claim that Article VI of the U.S. extradition treaty with Italy incorporates the American meaning of double jeopardy. But the Article only relieves the U.S. of its obligation to extradite if the subject is charged with the same crime at home. Even if the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Constitution were in question, it would offer Knox scant hope.


Edited to add:

This is the extradition treaty.
https://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/italy.pdf


Note article 6.
Article 6 provides that extradition shall be denied when the person sought has been in jeopardy in the requested State for the same offense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM

The only legal argument that Knox, her lawyers, and other advocates have made thus far is that she should be protected by America’s commitment to preventing double jeopardy. They claim that Article VI of the U.S. extradition treaty with Italy incorporates the American meaning of double jeopardy. But the Article only relieves the U.S. of its obligation to extradite if the subject is charged with the same crime at home. Even if the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Constitution were in question, it would offer Knox scant hope.

http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-la...nda-knox-78669

I disagree. We will see.

 

[magnolia]

It does and I am not misunderstanding.

"And while some legal experts contend Knox could very well be extradited, others say U.S. officials could refuse to hand over Knox by leaning on a double-jeopardy clause included in the extradition treaty between the two countries.

"Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for which extradition is requested," the treaty states.

And Knox was, according to M. Cherif Bassiouni, a former U.N. lawyer and international extradition law expert.

American and Italian officials may interpret the treaty's double-jeopardy clause differently based on their own judicial systems, but Bassiouni said no interpretation would pass muster.

"Whatever the interpretation of article VI may be ... Amanda Knox would not be extraditable to Italy should Italy seek her extradition because she was retried for the same acts, the same facts, and the same conduct," Bassiouni wrote in an Oxford University Press blog post. "Her case was reviewed three times with different outcomes even though she was not actually tried three times.""

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/amanda-knox-extradition/

Ill take this expert opinion with the credentials over all of our opinions any day.

BBM- The rule of double jeopardy would only apply in this case if Amanda had committed the offense of murder in the United States. The U.S. could then deny the extraditon request.

https://internationalextraditionblog...1/03/italy.pdf

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM- The rule of double jeopardy would only apply in this case if Amanda had committed the offense of murder in the United States.

https://internationalextraditionblog...1/03/italy.pdf

No, That is not true. It is put into the treaty to protect our citizens.