It's Christmas once again at Wal-Mart

[Nova]

yes because Nova calling Christians and Muslims whiney and referencing our being thrown to the lions doesn't constitute hate-speech, does it? The ones who were offended by that rather than Nova's so are the very ones who did. Thank ya very much!

Now you are being deliberately dense, DK. You know very well I neither applauded persecution of Christians nor called for its resumption. THAT would be hate speech!

What I said was that Christians (some, really) were carrying on AS IF they were being fed to the lions. I believe English is your native language and you are perfectly capable of recognizing conditional tenses.

 

[Dark Knight]

Nova: For what it's worth I have never believed one group is whinier than the other, or causing trouble, I just wanted to see the reaction when the groups were switched, since your comment was insulting to me, and I got the reaction I expected from some posters. I apologize to members of those groups who were offended, including yourself, as I was to your post. It was only to prove a point, which it did. (And no, a mod didn't ask me to clarify, lol.)

 

[Dark Knight]

Now you are being deliberately dense, DK. You know very well I neither applauded persecution of Christians nor called for its resumption. THAT would be hate speech!

What I said was that Christians (some, really) were carrying on AS IF they were being fed to the lions. I believe English is your native language and you are perfectly capable of recognizing conditional tenses.

What if I had said, "Jews who don't like hearing all this Christmas stuff are acting like they are still being sent to concentration camps" or some other insane reference to their persecution? I also would not be applauding it nor calling for it, but people would have gone crazy over it. I feel ill just typing it for an example, bleck.

 

[cappuccina]

...but saying about 1.2 million "Hail Marys" should get you out of it...

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight
Nope, it's the Jews and the Athiests who caused this anti-Christmas mess I just betcha, so they are the whiniest! And the gays, too! (Is this really a road you wanna go down?)


Originally Posted by Nova:

What the heck is wrong with Christians anyway? Whiniest crowd on the planet, with the possible exception of Muslims.

One would think Christians were still being fed to the lions, not just being asked to acknowledge that this is a diverse country with many different traditions and beliefs.

"The offense experienced by Christians at being confronted with a generic “Holiday Party” which doesn’t single out their religion for special treatment is analogous to the offense experienced by members of other religions at being confronted by a specific “Christmas Party” which singles out Christianity for special treatment above other religions (including their own).

Thus, a failure to treat Christianity and Christians as if they were special and better than others is offensive to Christians in a manner similar to how others are offended when they are treated as inferiors.
This is an example of people being self-absorbed, self-righteous, self-pitying, egotistical, and whiney.

Ralph Barker and like-minded Christians are offended when they aren't singled out for favoritism and when they aren’t told that their religion is special. They actually think that this is somehow similar to what others experience when they are singled out for inferior treatment."
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/223333.htm

Quoting athiesm.com? LOL! You are famous for your sources, LOL!!!!

In reply: If said party had elements of all the religions and beliefs, or none at all and was truly generic, that'd be fine. But to have a so-called "Holiday party" with Santa hats, maybe a tree, Christmas decorations, and so on, then it becomes insulting as it is obviously a Christmas party with the Christmas taken out.

 

[windovervocalcords]

What if I had said, "Jews who don't like hearing all this Christmas stuff are acting like they are still being sent to concentration camps" or some other insane reference to their persecution? I also would not be applauding it nor calling for it, but people would have gone crazy over it. I feel ill just typing it for an example, bleck.

Jews are not making the same kind of fuss over Christmas that Christians are for one thing. They are extremely gracious IMO.

Once again this is a Bill O'Reilly, John Gibson, Pat Robertson manipulation and surprisingly so many go for it.

Christianity is a MAJORITY religion. It is not endangered or oppressed. It is overwhelmingly pushy lately by the likes of the Falwell, Robertson, Dobson crowd.

All Christians then become convinced they are not allowed to celebrate Christmas or they have to do so in the catacombs. (oh no, see what a roll we're on).

 

[cappuccina]

...or his motivations...John Fitzgerald Kenndy was an educated and elegant Catholic, not a "shove my beliefs down your throat" boorish, mob-mentality Catholic...

 

[Dark Knight]

...or his motivations...John Fitzgerald Kenndy was an educated and elegant Catholic, not a "shove my beliefs down your throat" boorish, mob-mentality Catholic...

His motivations for turning his back on his faith in the face of criticism to get elected have been discussed for generations of Catholics. He was probably on coke at the time, to boot! ("For his back" as he used to joke privately.) Yes he was a very elegant speaker and a decent president.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Quoting athiesm.com? LOL! You are famous for your sources, LOL!!!!

In reply: If said party had elements of all the religions and beliefs, or none at all and was truly generic, that'd be fine. But to have a so-called "Holiday party" with Santa hats, maybe a tree, Christmas decorations, and so on, then it becomes insulting as it is obviously a Christmas party with the Christmas taken out.

What have you got against atheists? I quoted them because they also do not celebrate Christmas and the Constitution protects them too.

Did you read my post about how Christmas party and rituals are being shoved down my co-workers throat? And she happens to BE a Christian who does not celebrate Christmas.

 

[windovervocalcords]

His motivations for turning his back on his faith in the face of criticism to get elected have been discussed for generations of Catholics. He was probably on coke at the time, to boot! ("For his back" as he used to joke privately.) Yes he was a very elegant speaker and a decent president.

You do not like the view of a practicing Catholic, President John Kennedy, who had a clear understanding of the Constitutional Separation of Church and State and tolerant views way ahead of his time.

So you try to smear him and act like you know his "hidden" motives.

In addition to your "smiting powers", are you adding mind reading and omniscience?

 

[Sundayrain]

What have you got against atheists? I quoted them because they also do not celebrate Christmas and the Constitution protects them too.

Did you read my post about how Christmas party and rituals are being shoved down my co-workers throat? And she happens to BE a Christian who does not celebrate Christmas.[
Wind........My brother is a atheists, but he celebrates Christmas as a family holiday. I accept that. The World is made up of many choices, to each his own. He wants the tradition part of the holiday. So be it.....Whatever makes someone happy.
I really do feel sorry for your co-worker. In this day and age...a persons beliefs should be respected. Has she tried to gather with the workers and tell them nicely that......she has her own beliefs and would rather not attend? I can't imagine that they would still push her if she explained.
If so........then someone higher up should tell them to leave her alone.
She has a right to her own feelings. You certainly do too........

 

[michelle]

You know, we've been celebrating Christmas for many decades and in the past few years we are now having "issues" with it??.. I don't get it.. :doh: Christmas is a celebration over Christ's birth and now people want to change it.. WHY? don't celebrate it if you don't believe, it's that simple. I don't agree with some people's religion but I wouldn't go in and tell them to change something about it because I DON'T AGREE with it..

Exactly...:clap:

 

[michelle]

:laugh: :laugh:

I don't ask someone's religion before saying "God bless you" when they sneeze. I wonder how many people I've offended by that. :waitasec:

.

That is too funny, but true!

 

[Nova]

You didn't like me saying the same thing about you that you did me? Awww. The get over the inferiority complex of being some "minority" and cursing us because we are some "overwhelming majority." Majority or minority doesn't excuse those comments or behavior. Calling us the whiniest on the plant was extemely insulting to me. No surprise when it's turned around it doesn't feel so good, eh.

I wasn't all that bothered, actually. You and I have done this dance before.

The problem with your "tit for tat" argument is that it is based in the logic of a second grader. (I'm only talking about this particularly argument, DK, not your logic on other matters.)

To 7-year-olds, "fair" means I get a piece of cake if Johnny gets a piece of cake. Nevermind that I am 200 pounds overweight, diabetic and toothless, while Johnny hasn't eaten in four days.

 

[julianne]

What have you got against atheists? I quoted them because they also do not celebrate Christmas and the Constitution protects them too.

Did you read my post about how Christmas party and rituals are being shoved down my co-workers throat? And she happens to BE a Christian who does not celebrate Christmas.

WOVC....I have read your posts regarding your workplace and Christmas. I tend to agree with your views on topics the majority of the time. I may agree with your view on this one in particular, but I have questions...

When you say the Christmas party and rituals are being "shoved down your co-workers throat", what exactly do you mean? Surely, this co-worker isn't penalized or disciplined in any way for not partaking in the activities, right? I think that the extent of "being shoved down her throat" was being included on a list of email recipients who are being invited to the party, and possibly discussing it, right? Although you said that she has worked there a long time and has informed everyone that she doesn't celebrate Christmas, I'm not sure how still being invited to the office festivities is considered being shoved down her throat and rude, as you called it earlier. I just don't see how being invited to something is considered RUDE, just because you don't want to go for whatever the reason. So, if she simply ignores these invites, what happens? Does a group of office workers crowd around her desk and berate her for not wanting to participate? Do coworkers say that what she believes is stupid? Do the people who attend get Christmas bonuses? If those things were happening, then yes, I would say that is rude and it was being shoved down her throat. But if she is simply being invited, and chooses not to respond or attend, and everyone is 'okay' with that, then how is it being shoved down her throat?

On the flip side of the coin, I know a couple of workplaces that, if using the work email system to make plans or invites to social functions, that it is supposed to be with a company-wide distribution---or a department-wide distribution, or particular office. The reason for this is to avoid any kind of perception of discrimination. Certainly, if the person says "Don't invite me", then of course it isn't discrimination, but it could still be looked upon as that. Kind of like in my little boys classroom---he can give out invitations to his birthday party on school time to kids in his class ONLY if he gives them to EVERYONE in the class, to avoid hurt feelings. If he wants to invite only a select few, then the inviting must be done on his own time. Makes sense.

Now, if someone in the workplace isn't included in department-wide functions and at least given the opportunity to accept or decline, then I could certainly see that as being a human resource issue and akin to discrimation, for whatever reason.

My workplace has a large Christmas BBQ every year, and it is called the "Family Christmas BBQ". Everyone is invited to attend, via posters and mass email. They start sending out emails about 4 weeks prior, and reminder emails 2 weeks later, one week later and again a couple days prior. All in all, there are about 5 emails regarding the party. Those that do not celebrate Christmas are not offended. They don't view it as rude, or that their beliefs are being belittled, or the fact that it is being shoved down their throat.

My point is that, in my opinion, in order for it to be rude or considered to be "shoved down their throats", don't you think it would take more than simply being included in the invite list????

 

[Nova]

What if I had said, "Jews who don't like hearing all this Christmas stuff are acting like they are still being sent to concentration camps" or some other insane reference to their persecution? I also would not be applauding it nor calling for it, but people would have gone crazy over it. I feel ill just typing it for an example, bleck.

Please see my post above about reasoning at a 7-year-old level. If you made such a post, I would probably defend you. Nonetheless, the difference would be that one event is painfully recent, the other quite remote; one event involved persecuting a minority that is still a tiny minority and still therefore at risk, the other involved persecuting a then minority that is now a majority (at least in the countries from which most of us post).

See how that works?

 

[Nova]

Nova: For what it's worth I have never believed one group is whinier than the other, or causing trouble, I just wanted to see the reaction when the groups were switched, since your comment was insulting to me, and I got the reaction I expected from some posters. I apologize to members of those groups who were offended, including yourself, as I was to your post. It was only to prove a point, which it did. (And no, a mod didn't ask me to clarify, lol.)

And for what it's worth, DK, I was mostly kidding. But the Fox-News-orchestrated carrying on about an imaginary "War Against Christmas" has gotten really old.

And one could shrug it off if some folks (not you) weren't so gullible. Look at the posts above that say, in effect, "NOBODY CAN STOP ME FROM CELEBRATING CHRISTMAS!" As if anyone were even trying...

 

[SadieMae]

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials--and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.

For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew--or a Quaker--or a Unitarian--or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim--but tomorrow it may be you--until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril. Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end--where all men and all churches are treated as equal--where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice--where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind--and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/40/story_4080_1.html

WOVC...we may butt heads in the DP thread, but I stand 100% with you on this subject. Thank you for an excellent post. :blowkiss:

 

[windovervocalcords]

What have you got against atheists? I quoted them because they also do not celebrate Christmas and the Constitution protects them too.

Did you read my post about how Christmas party and rituals are being shoved down my co-workers throat? And she happens to BE a Christian who does not celebrate Christmas.[
Wind........My brother is a atheists, but he celebrates Christmas as a family holiday. I accept that. The World is made up of many choices, to each his own. He wants the tradition part of the holiday. So be it.....Whatever makes someone happy.
I really do feel sorry for your co-worker. In this day and age...a persons beliefs should be respected. Has she tried to gather with the workers and tell them nicely that......she has her own beliefs and would rather not attend? I can't imagine that they would still push her if she explained.
If so........then someone higher up should tell them to leave her alone.
She has a right to her own feelings. You certainly do too........

She has explained year after year.

 

[Nova]

She has explained year after year.

I can't remember the last time I worked at a company that had anything but an all-inclusive Winter Holiday Party for all employees, whatever their sacred beliefs. Why is that so hard?