It's Christmas once again at Wal-Mart

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  • #241
julianne said:
WOVC....I have read your posts regarding your workplace and Christmas. I tend to agree with your views on topics the majority of the time. I may agree with your view on this one in particular, but I have questions...

When you say the Christmas party and rituals are being "shoved down your co-workers throat", what exactly do you mean? Surely, this co-worker isn't penalized or disciplined in any way for not partaking in the activities, right? I think that the extent of "being shoved down her throat" was being included on a list of email recipients who are being invited to the party, and possibly discussing it, right? Although you said that she has worked there a long time and has informed everyone that she doesn't celebrate Christmas, I'm not sure how still being invited to the office festivities is considered being shoved down her throat and rude, as you called it earlier. I just don't see how being invited to something is considered RUDE, just because you don't want to go for whatever the reason. So, if she simply ignores these invites, what happens? Does a group of office workers crowd around her desk and berate her for not wanting to participate? Do coworkers say that what she believes is stupid? Do the people who attend get Christmas bonuses? If those things were happening, then yes, I would say that is rude and it was being shoved down her throat. But if she is simply being invited, and chooses not to respond or attend, and everyone is 'okay' with that, then how is it being shoved down her throat?

On the flip side of the coin, I know a couple of workplaces that, if using the work email system to make plans or invites to social functions, that it is supposed to be with a company-wide distribution---or a department-wide distribution, or particular office. The reason for this is to avoid any kind of perception of discrimination. Certainly, if the person says "Don't invite me", then of course it isn't discrimination, but it could still be looked upon as that. Kind of like in my little boys classroom---he can give out invitations to his birthday party on school time to kids in his class ONLY if he gives them to EVERYONE in the class, to avoid hurt feelings. If he wants to invite only a select few, then the inviting must be done on his own time. Makes sense.

Now, if someone in the workplace isn't included in department-wide functions and at least given the opportunity to accept or decline, then I could certainly see that as being a human resource issue and akin to discrimation, for whatever reason.

My workplace has a large Christmas BBQ every year, and it is called the "Family Christmas BBQ". Everyone is invited to attend, via posters and mass email. They start sending out emails about 4 weeks prior, and reminder emails 2 weeks later, one week later and again a couple days prior. All in all, there are about 5 emails regarding the party. Those that do not celebrate Christmas are not offended. They don't view it as rude, or that their beliefs are being belittled, or the fact that it is being shoved down their throat.

My point is that, in my opinion, in order for it to be rude or considered to be "shoved down their throats", don't you think it would take more than simply being included in the invite list????
Go back and read the post. This is not just about e-mails. Its about asking her to deliver Christmas presents. Its about getting harassed when she does not want to participate in Christmas charity (but does so quietly numerous times throughout the year) and its about the party too.

Year after year she has asked to be left alone. This qualifies as having Christmas, to her, a pagan holiday shoved down her throat.

People put down her beliefs behind her back also.

Mind you people here consider themselves very PC.
 
  • #242
windovervocalcords said:
Go back and read the post. This is not just about e-mails. Its about asking her to deliver Christmas presents. Its about getting harassed when she does not want to participate in Christmas charity (but does so quietly numerous times throughout the year) and its about the party too.

Year after year she has asked to be left alone. This qualifies as having Christmas, to her, a pagan holiday shoved down her throat.

People put down her beliefs behind her back also.

Mind you people here consider themselves very PC.
Maybe she should try to be more tolerant and accepting. :p
 
  • #243
Dark Knight said:
I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Constitution.
The Ninth Amendment found in the Bill of Rights states:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


I said:

IrishMist said:
The Constitution doesn't grant you rights. It assumes that all of us have inalienable rights. Some specific ones that the framers thought to be highly important were spelled out. See the Ninth Amendment.
What makes you disagree with my interpretation?
confused.gif
 
  • #244
Dark Knight said:
Maybe she should try to be more tolerant and accepting. :p
Like how? What do you think she should do?
 
  • #245
IrishMist said:
Like how? What do you think she should do?
Like maybe not expect literally everyone else to cater to her? Isn't that tyranny by the MInority? One person sees it as pagan, so no one else should celebrate with an office party??? That doesn't seem fair to me. The needs of one shouldn't override the needs of the many. She is the one who cannot tolerate Christmas. By the same token, people shouldn't make fun of her, either.
 
  • #246
Dark Knight said:
Like maybe not expect literally everyone else to cater to her? Isn't that tyranny by the MInority? One person sees it as pagan, so no one else should celebrate with an office party??? That doesn't seem fair to me. The needs of one shouldn't override the needs of the many. She is the one who cannot tolerate Christmas. By the same token, people shouldn't make fun of her, either.
It doesn't sound like she is expecting them to not celebrate. It sounds like she just wants to stay out of it and be left alone. What's wrong with that??
 
  • #247
Dark Knight said:
Maybe she should try to be more tolerant and accepting. :p
In that situation I don't think so. Her friends wishes and beliefs were clearly known and her limits of acceptance were set, yet it is still forced upon her to participate in what she doesn't believe in. No thank you should have sufficed. To me that would be like a boss telling me he really likes women to wear a burka in his presence because he is Muslim. I will tolerate him praying 5 times a day to Allah, I won't ask him if he wants something for lunch during Ramadan, but I AIN'T wearing no burkah in the office. There IS a limit to tolerance.
 
  • #248
Okay, getting back to Wal-Mart.

I found nothing wrong with changing Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays last year...........it seemed to fit the season and I personally never heard anyone complaining while in Wal-Mart or any other place that did the same thing.

Things have changed a long time ago, students no longer are on Christmas Break, they're on Winter Break. Same for Easter, it's been Spring Break for years.
 
  • #249
Tom'sGirl said:
Okay, getting back to Wal-Mart.

I found nothing wrong with changing Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays last year...........it seemed to fit the season and I personally never heard anyone complaining while in Wal-Mart or any other place that did the same thing.

Things have changed a long time ago, students no longer are on Christmas Break, they're on Winter Break. Same for Easter, it's been Spring Break for years.

And rightly so, particularly since most schools don't schedule the break to necessarily coincide with Holy Week. Yep, that's right: yet another attack on Christians.

As for greeters at WalMart and elsewhere: if the good wishes are sincere, then they will be inclusive. If they are merely a way of asserting one's (or one's company's) piety, well, that's something else again.
 
  • #250
SadieMae said:
In that situation I don't think so. Her friends wishes and beliefs were clearly known and her limits of acceptance were set, yet it is still forced upon her to participate in what she doesn't believe in. No thank you should have sufficed. To me that would be like a boss telling me he really likes women to wear a burka in his presence because he is Muslim. I will tolerate him praying 5 times a day to Allah, I won't ask him if he wants something for lunch during Ramadan, but I AIN'T wearing no burkah in the office. There IS a limit to tolerance.
Right on gal, right on
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  • #251
cappuccina said:
...ahhh, this is key, this is the sentence I was looking for from this speech...

"...where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials..."

Ntegrity, you flunked the test...What did I just say....As far as I am concerned...Every private store in the nation can have Chrismas decorations coming out of their proverbial asses.... Every private gas station, retaurant, PRIVATE VENUE... Thousands and thousands of places...

You just cannot proselytize for Christmas or any other religious holiday, in a public venue...like a public park, school, or government building...

What are you not understanding about this....It's 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 to say that you "have to whisper about Christmas"... You just can't put up a sign that says "Jesus loves you" in a courthouse...
What test did I flunk???? I didn't even know I was taking one!! :p

pros·e·ly·tize (prs-l-tz)
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.


Where have I advocated proselytizing in a public building? I don't recall saying anything remotely like that, so please show me the post you're referring to. I don't think a Wal-Mart sales clerk wishing someone Merry Christmas qualifies ... nor does a child saying to a classmate that Christmas is Jesus' birthday ... nor is their giving out Christmas cards to their friends ... nor does putting up a Christmas tree in a public building. All of those things have come under attack from the over-zealous proponents of "separation" and those who are offended by Christians showing any expression of their OWN faith. This has nothing to do with proselytizing at all.
 
  • #252
SadieMae said:
In that situation I don't think so. Her friends wishes and beliefs were clearly known and her limits of acceptance were set, yet it is still forced upon her to participate in what she doesn't believe in. No thank you should have sufficed. To me that would be like a boss telling me he really likes women to wear a burka in his presence because he is Muslim. I will tolerate him praying 5 times a day to Allah, I won't ask him if he wants something for lunch during Ramadan, but I AIN'T wearing no burkah in the office. There IS a limit to tolerance.
I don't think she should be forced into it. If that's what it comes down, then that is wrong. Nor should she be taunted with it. But that can all be avoided without resorting to a Winter Holidays Party, too. Why can't people's beliefs be respected without going whole hog in another direction?
 
  • #253
December 2006

6 - St. Nicholas Day (International)

8 - Bodhi Day - Buddha's Enlightenment (Buddhist)

12 - Virgin of Guadalupe (Mexico)

13 - Santa Lucia Day (Sweden)

16-25 - Las Posadas (Mexico)

25 - Christmas (Christian, Roman Catholic, International)

26 - Boxing Day (Canada, United Kingdom)

16-24 - Hanukkah* (Jewish)

26 - Jan 1 - Kwanzaa (African-American)
 
  • #254
Dark Knight said:
I don't think she should be forced into it. If that's what it comes down, then that is wrong. Nor should she be taunted with it. But that can all be avoided without resorting to a Winter Holidays Party, too. Why can't people's beliefs be respected without going whole hog in another direction?
From the description, she is being taunted with it, harassed, everything short of forced. She's not telling them not to have a party, not to call it a christmas party, just not to keep harassing her to distribute christmas presents, show up at the party, etc. It's not a whole hog here. Not even a piglet. It's ugly intolerance for anyone with a different belief than the majority - even if they're a christian.

At a business - they can have a Christmas party if they like - no law forbidding that. But - not all of their employees are Christian - why have an exclusive party that some are not welcome to, when a little bit of a name change, and you can give a bit of an opening to all of your employees. Of course, it's still really a Christmas party - there's still a Christmas tree, red and green, presents, etc. But it's open to everyone, and it's the secular Christmas holiday (as office parties always have been - you won't see an office Christmas party with a preacher giving a christmas sermon). What is so wrong with a business (not a religion) chosing to give a Holiday party?
 
  • #255
windovervocalcords said:
Go back and read the post. This is not just about e-mails. Its about asking her to deliver Christmas presents. Its about getting harassed when she does not want to participate in Christmas charity (but does so quietly numerous times throughout the year) and its about the party too.

Year after year she has asked to be left alone. This qualifies as having Christmas, to her, a pagan holiday shoved down her throat.

People put down her beliefs behind her back also.

Mind you people here consider themselves very PC.
Well, she should certainly NOT be harassed. That is wrong and is also incredibly illegal. If the workplace is allowing harassment to happen, they should be held liable--ESPECIALLY when it is due to one's religious beliefs. There is a federal law against that and she is sitting on a big, fat lawsuit. Seriously, if it is indeed harassment, based on her religious beliefs, she should sue the pants off the employer and teach them a lesson. Has she ever filed a formal complaint with the EEOC regarding this? Or, even on a lesser level, has she ever filed a complaint with the Human Resources department? If not, why don't you encourage her to do so? If it was my friend and coworker being harassed, for ANY reason, but ESPECIALLY for one such as this, I would stand beside her and support her and help her in any legal pursuits to see that this stops.
 
  • #256
Dark Knight said:
I don't think she should be forced into it. If that's what it comes down, then that is wrong. Nor should she be taunted with it. But that can all be avoided without resorting to a Winter Holidays Party, too. Why can't people's beliefs be respected without going whole hog in another direction?
I agree...but hopefully it's only a few who take it that far and are making the most noise about it.
 
  • #257
Ntegrity said:
What test did I flunk???? I didn't even know I was taking one!! :p

pros·e·ly·tize (prs-l-tz)
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.


Where have I advocated proselytizing in a public building? I don't recall saying anything remotely like that, so please show me the post you're referring to. I don't think a Wal-Mart sales clerk wishing someone Merry Christmas qualifies ... nor does a child saying to a classmate that Christmas is Jesus' birthday ... nor is their giving out Christmas cards to their friends ... nor does putting up a Christmas tree in a public building. All of those things have come under attack from the over-zealous proponents of "separation" and those who are offended by Christians showing any expression of their OWN faith. This has nothing to do with proselytizing at all.
Where are these things happening, Ntegrity?
 
  • #258
IrishMist said:
Where are these things happening, Ntegrity?
Those were court cases fought in Massachusetts, Oregon, and Florida (respectively). It's just a small sampling of what's happened throughout the U.S. in going too far in suppressing religious beliefs in an attempt to be impartial. That's what I meant about the pendulum needing to come back to center.
 
  • #259
Ntegrity said:
Those were court cases fought in Massachusetts, Oregon, and Florida (respectively). It's just a small sampling of what's happened throughout the U.S. in going too far in suppressing religious beliefs in an attempt to be impartial. That's what I meant about the pendulum needing to come back to center.
I'll look them up tomorrow, just too tired tonight. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about them... but then again, I don't watch much tv. Anyway, I'll read up on it, thanks.
 
  • #260
For an easy search, try aclj.org.
 
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