It's Christmas once again at Wal-Mart

[Dark Knight]

Seattle airport removes Christmas trees

All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested.

Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice.

"We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year."

Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. He had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows.

"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District.

After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists.

Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown.

"They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said his lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061210/ap_on_re_us/airport_christmas_trees&printer=1

I am not sure why no one, even lawyers, knows the Supreme Court ruled Christmas trees as being secular, not religious.

 

[IrishMist]

Actually No I am not missing the point of the thread. My point is the whole thing is STUPID!

I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Animal04216]

I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the confusion.

LOL! Sorry my friend! :blowkiss:

 

[Details]

Seattle airport removes Christmas trees

All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested.

Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice.

"We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year."

Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. He had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows.

"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District.

After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists.

Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown.

"They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said his lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061210/ap_on_re_us/airport_christmas_trees&printer=1

I am not sure why no one, even lawyers, knows the Supreme Court ruled Christmas trees as being secular, not religious.

I know it... the airport is just being chicken. People using lawsuit threats to get their way just because of the expense (and the chance of getting a nutjob judge) - I think they should always be fought.

I can kinda see the point - it's always nice to be inclusive - but once you open it up to religious symbols (and the menorah is unquestionably religious - a tree decorated in blue lights maybe would have been a better secular jewish, or some such thing that I don't know well enough to describe, thing to ask), you do have to put all of them in - a jesus scene, kwanzaa, buddist, etc., whenever each of their major holidays falls.

Of course, I was raised with Christmas, so no doubt it's different for me than for someone raised in another tradition. Still, I think a declaration could be made, perhaps, that a secular 'Christmas' is an American holiday, like Thanksgiving, with christmas trees and red and green and giftgiving, and nothing to do with the religious holiday, open to everyone. Then there's the religious Jesus's birth holiday that has manger scenes and churches, etc. Just split the two. They're quite enough different as it is - $$$$$, spend, gimmie, more versus peace on earth and thoughts of the end times.
I hope the airport goes to fight, might not take much to get it dismissed, just bring up the supreme court decision, and be done with it.

 

[julianne]

No, Christmas is not called "Holiday." However, not everyone celebrates Christmas. LOL. I used to have no problem with store clerks saying "Merry Christmas" as I left with my items.

However, I went to Wal-Mart last week and WAS offended. As I walked into the store, a Wal-Mart employee sought me out, handed me a candy cane and said "Merry Christmas." It was unpleasant to me. It appeared to be a Wal-Mart ploy rather than a genuine wish for a "Merry Christmas."

Oh, I realize not everyone celebrates Christmas, and I have no problem with that. It's a personal decision...there's no "right" or "wrong". I just don't have a problem with anyone wishing me a Merry Christmas if THEY CHOOSE to do so.

But, I have to ask you, and please do not misinterpret me, but WHY were you offended? I mean, you say you USED to have no problem with store clerks wishing you Merry Christmas. Why do you feel like the Wal Mart people "sought you out"? I mean, to me, saying that implies that they were specifically looking for YOU, following you in the store, trying to catch up to you.....to say Merry Christmas. I know that's not the scenario, but I don't know what you mean by "sought you out". Plus, right after your above post, you go on to say that you have no problem with anyone wishing you a Merry Christmas....but above you say you are offended? I'm not trying to give you the 3rd degree, I just really don't understand. I'll be the first person to say that EVERYONE has a right to believe what they choose to, and that my beliefs isn't any better than the next guys, nor is my belief the "right" one. Just different. If we were all the same, with the same beliefs, this would be an incredibly boring world.

With that, I would not be offended if someone wished me "Merry Christmas", or "Happy Hannukah", or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Festivus", LOL.... because whatever WORD they are using is meant as a statement of good will towards me, and to me, I find that pleasant and kind. It takes alot to offend me, but even if it didn't, someone smiling at me and wishing me a "Happy" or "Merry" ANYTHING is just pure niceness, and there's not enough of that in the world today.

 

[Details]

I could see, and do see, Merry Christmas as offensive when it's being used as a propaganda or in your face type of move - I could see WalMart's newfound conversion to Merry Christmas leading to a bit too much zeal. It should be natural, or it's meaningless - anti-christmas actually.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Agree that the airport was just chicken, folding their tent in a knee-jerk reaction--the idea that other cultures would then sue them if the Menorah was allowed is ludicrous--What other cultures are they? Where have "other cultures" ever sued anyone over this?

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Anyone that says they are "offended" because the store says Merry Christmas to them must be pretty thin-skinned--a whiner--If you happen to be Jewish, then you just say Happy Holidays to them back--simple as that

 

[Sundayrain]

Anyone that says they are "offended" because the store says Merry Christmas to them must be pretty thin-skinned--a whiner--If you happen to be Jewish, then you just say Happy Holidays to them back--simple as that

Exactly, Mr Hamilton.......thats how its always been, and should stay.
There never was this whining, complaining, going on in all these years.
Everyone seemed so happy......I am so amazed about this bah humbug stuff that if turning up all over. Merry Christmas to you!

 

[Nova]

Exactly, Mr Hamilton.......thats how its always been, and should stay.
There never was this whining, complaining, going on in all these years.
Everyone seemed so happy......I am so amazed about this bah humbug stuff that if turning up all over. Merry Christmas to you!

What a crock! Most of the whining is coming from a minority of Christians who feel threatened if their religious beliefs aren't privileged with special recognition by everyone in the culture. "Happy Holidays" isn't enough for them, because apparently their beliefs are so shallow they can't be maintained without impassioned support from the entire community.

What is offensive, Peter Hamilton, is a marketing ploy that assuages the petty resentment of the majority at the expense of being inclusive to all. What is offensive is the conservative right wing of this country and its official propaganda instrument, Fox News, that persists in cynical attempts to persuade frightened people that their lifestyles and values are in imminent danger from inclusive WalMart greetings (while ignoring the very real economic shifts that threaten us all).

I am neither Jewish nor atheist, and Christmas is a special time in our house. Individuals have every right to wish others a "Merry Christmas" (though we may rightfully question the thoughtfulness, sincerity and Christianity of a greeting to strangers that excludes non-Christians).

But campaigns to force companies to exclude minorities by reverting to a Christ-centric greeting should offend all of us. Tyranny of the majority is always offensive.

 

[windovervocalcords]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Christmas is a Christian holiday, but you don't have to repent of your sins and be baptized to enjoy it. The Christmas tree and the exchange of gifts are not part of the religious aspects of the holiday. Anybody who wants to can have a Christmas tree and exchange gifts. Even Santa Claus is today only remotely connected to St. Nicholas, the patron saint of Russia.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So what is there to war about? Christmas is a holiday that has a religious part and a secular part. Take your choice. I remember reading an article by the daughter of Jack Benny, the great Jewish comedian. She said they always had a Christmas tree, and that she and her siblings joined the other children in singing Christmas carols.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Today, some try to keep Christmas carols out of public schools, as if singing a song were some great polemic in favor of Christianity. That's nonsense, of course. Much of the world's great art has been inspired by the world's various religions. A faith so shaky as to be disturbed by a song is hardly a faith.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As for secularizing public education, that simply cheats the students of good education. Even in today's secular times, religion plays an important part in the lives of people all over the world. One cannot know history without knowing the role the various religions have played in it.

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The First Amendment, as is clear from the statements of the people who wrote it and ratified it, was designed to protect religion from government, not vice versa. When Tom Jefferson wrote in a letter to some Baptists about the "wall of separation between church and state," he was merely reiterating that there would never be a U.S.-government-sponsored church.[/font]

So, ignore all the hypersensitive soreheads, and have yourself a merry Christmas, whatever your faith or lack thereof. Nothing in the world is wrong with beauty, good food, good will and good fellowship. When I look at my Christmas tree, I feel no mysterious urge to become a pagan or a Lutheran. I just enjoy the beauty.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese324.html
[/font]

 

[reb]

since when did 'celebrate diversity' become "ADAMANTLY DEMAND diversity, or else!!"......???

see this is what happens when you try to please everbody-- there will inevitably always be someone who cannot be pleased, and then NO ONE will be pleased.

 

[windovervocalcords]

since when did 'celebrate diversity' become "ADAMANTLY DEMAND diversity, or else!!"......???

see this is what happens when you try to please everbody-- there will inevitably always be someone who cannot be pleased, and then NO ONE will be pleased.

Who or what are you responding to.

 

[Nova]

since when did 'celebrate diversity' become "ADAMANTLY DEMAND diversity, or else!!"......???

see this is what happens when you try to please everbody-- there will inevitably always be someone who cannot be pleased, and then NO ONE will be pleased.

"Pleasing" people isn't the issue. Doing what is morally right during a season when Christians (supposedly) celebrate "peace on earth" and "good will to all men" is the issue:

"When will the bickering end
If not when children cheer
A hint of snow
Candy canes
And mistletoe?
When will a rival be counted a friend
If not at Christmas?

When will we show that we care
If not that once a year
When children see
Dreams come true
Around the tree?
When will we conquer defeat and despair
If not at Christmas?

Sometimes we should pause to reflect
Why do we worry and doubt and suspect?
Somehow we must dare to believe.
Why not try this Christmas Eve?

When will we live and let live
And learn being different isn’t a crime?
When will we finally start to forgive
If not at Christmas time?

…

When will we learn how to trust
And practice good will to all women and men?
When will we finally love as we must?
If not at Christmas, when?"

(Copyright 2002, Henderson/MacDuff)

 

[reb]

windover-- i'm responding to the issue of the xmas trees being removed for a fear of a lawsuit.

 

[Nova]

windover-- i'm responding to the issue of the xmas trees being removed for a fear of a lawsuit.

For what it's worth, reb, I think Sea-Tac airport overreacted. We need to distinguish between the sacred and secular aspects of the season. (Difficult, I realize, since Dec 25 remains named for Christ and the mass.)

 

[windovervocalcords]

windover-- i'm responding to the issue of the xmas trees being removed for a fear of a lawsuit.

Sorry missed the story. It sounds completely stupid off the top of my head.

 

[Details]

Agree that the airport was just chicken, folding their tent in a knee-jerk reaction--the idea that other cultures would then sue them if the Menorah was allowed is ludicrous--What other cultures are they? Where have "other cultures" ever sued anyone over this?

I think they're right. If a religious jewish symbol is allowed, the first lawsuit will come from a christian religious figure, demanding a nativity scene - fair is fair, a christmas tree is not a symbol of jesus or christianity at all. Then, I'd expect something about Kwanzaa, something from the hindus, etc. And since these holidays aren't all at the same time as christmas, it'd be a necessity to decorate for the other holidays during their time of year, to be fair. Which, could be kinda fun, in all honesty, but then it's also a lot of expense, and with religious divisions as they are, maybe a bunch of trouble with people being offended if they are travelling through the airport during a competing religion's holiday.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I think they're right. If a religious jewish symbol is allowed, the first lawsuit will come from a christian religious figure, demanding a nativity scene - fair is fair, a christmas tree is not a symbol of jesus or christianity at all. Then, I'd expect something about Kwanzaa, something from the hindus, etc. And since these holidays aren't all at the same time as christmas, it'd be a necessity to decorate for the other holidays during their time of year, to be fair. Which, could be kinda fun, in all honesty, but then it's also a lot of expense, and with religious divisions as they are, maybe a bunch of trouble with people being offended if they are travelling through the airport during a competing religion's holiday.

Yeah, its all those wiccans who want to dance around the solstice tree.

 

[Details]

For what it's worth, reb, I think Sea-Tac airport overreacted. We need to distinguish between the sacred and secular aspects of the season. (Difficult, I realize, since Dec 25 remains named for Christ and the mass.)

I wonder if a new name could be made. Of course, if it was, I anticipate a bunch of people trying to get signs with "Merry Christmas" rather than "Winter Greetings (for example)" in the government buildings, alongside the Winter Tree, Winter red and green tinsel, Winter presents, etc. But still, everyone's house, businesses, churches, etc. could have their Merry Christmas signs up, and no longer tainted by association with a commercial, secular, and slightly pagan holiday.