It's Christmas once again at Wal-Mart

[Nova]

Speaking as a Catholic, my religious viewpoint has always been that a Christmas tree is religious in nature, not secular. The evergreen represents the everlasting life Jesus gives us, and the tree itself is a harbinger of the tree that Jesus was crucified on for our sins. So even though legally it is secular, for some Christians it isn't.

And Kwanzaa isn't even a religious holiday! It's a modern-day rip-off of Judaism/Hannukah with their own version of a menorah, etc. I always found the mimicking of Hannukah and the timing of it to be offensive. The founder could have chosen any number of ways to celebrate black history.

It's also offensive that the court called menorah's not sufficiently religious, and I have heard many Jewish people say the same thing. It represents a miracle of God, how could it not be religious????? :doh:

DK, I don't understand the ruling re the menorah either. My guess is the Court couldn't find an equivalent, secular symbol for Hannukah. (How many people know what Chanukah Charlie looks like?) So the Court decided to stretch its definition of secular.

Kwanzaa offensive because it borrowed from Judaism? Then I assume you find Christmas equally offensive since the date, tree and lots of other symbolism now associated with the holiday were borrowed from other, older religious traditions. Easter's another "ripped off" holiday. (Not to mention how much of Christian theology was borrowed from Zoroastrianism.) Glad to know you're consistent.

 

[Nova]

Marthatex, I agree with you. An airport is a big place and there is plenty of room for inclusive displays. I am a Catholic who manages to get to church on a semi-regular basis. Fundamentalist Christians do not speak for me and do not speak for the majority of Catholics. I don't consider a Menorrah or a Kwanzaa display to be excluding me from anything. I like to see Christmas trees (which are cultural, not religious, by the way) and Santa Claus in public places and I don't think anyone should be offended by those either. I do think that it's arrogant and unkind not to acknowledge other notable celebrations that occur during the Christmas season.

Nativity scenes belong on Church property and private property only, and not on any government agency property, in my opinion. Now, as far as retailers go, I think they do have the right to put religious symbols in their establishments but should obviously weigh their right to free expression with the need to keep customers of all faiths happy. Bottom line is that if I walk through an airport and see a Christmas tree display, followed by a beautiful menorrah, followed by a colorful Kwanzaa table, I feel happy that people care enough to be thoughtful, loving and joyful. That's what this season is all about, no matter who you believe in.

Beautifully put!

 

[Dark Knight]

DK, I don't understand the ruling re the menorah either. My guess is the Court couldn't find an equivalent, secular symbol for Hannukah. (How many people know what Chanukah Charlie looks like?) So the Court decided to stretch its definition of secular.

Kwanzaa offensive because it borrowed from Judaism? Then I assume you find Christmas equally offensive since the date, tree and lots of other symbolism now associated with the holiday were borrowed from other, older religious traditions. Easter's another "ripped off" holiday. (Not to mention how much of Christian theology was borrowed from Zoroastrianism.) Glad to know you're consistent.

Kwanzaa is a secular celebration created, in my opinion, to horn in on Judaism. The secularity is the big difference.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Kwanzaa is a secular celebration created, in my opinion, to horn in on Judaism. The secularity is the big difference.

No offense, but Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Hannukah and was created for African Americans to feel pride about their cultural roots and spiritual traditions.

That post sounds like an effort to pit African Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa in opposition to Jews who celebrate Hannukah. Surely, that was not your Merry Christmas intention?

 

[Nova]

Kwanzaa is a secular celebration created, in my opinion, to horn in on Judaism. The secularity is the big difference.

So "ripping off" is okay, as long as it's done in the name of God?

I believe you'll find it has been thousands of years since a holiday of any sort was created without borrowing from other celebrations.

Kwanzaa may not be "religious" in the sense of "associated with one particular religious faith," but I'm not sure those who celebrate it consider it entirely secular. Kwanzaa celebrates the "spirit" of community and family, a concept which may not sound like theology to Christians, Muslims or Jews, but one which is reflective of older African spiritual traditions.

 

[Details]

I completely agree - the Menorah to me seems like definitely a religious symbol. IMHO, I think the court was really just trying to allow the symbols of the two main religions. But a christmas tree is far more secular than a menorah.

Kwanzaa, by my understanding, was basicly a way to have a winter holiday specific to black americans. Definitely a made up holiday - but then, what isn't? They all get made sometime.

I think there's one major problem - the equator. Europe, we all have holidays about the same time, winter solstice, the time when the crops are in, and you've got nothing to do for a little bit. I suspect in Africa more of the major holidays are set in the summer (for us, winter for them), and I know that in India, the major festivals are pretty spread throughout the year - and, of course, they're on the equator zone.

 

[Nova]

I don't mean to be the geography monitor, Details, but most of Africa lies North of the Equator. (South America is the opposite.)

Still your point that tropical cultures may view the seasons differently stands.

 

[windovervocalcords]

http://www.ridgenet.org/Szaflik/kwanzaa.htm

[font=Verdana,arial,sans-serif]Black Catholic Calendar of Events[/font]http://www.nbccongress.org/images/black-facts/blackFacts-

[font=Verdana,arial,sans-serif]Kwanzaa for Life 2006[/font]
December 26, 2006 - January 1, 2007
Kwanzaa for Life 2006 is a time to celebrate the festival of Kwanzaa, our African American heritage and the dignity of life.

The Kinara of the Soul
(The Kinara is a seven-place candleholder that represents the original stalk from which all African people sprang. It also represents reason and social structure. In Kwanzaa for Life it represents the soul of each individual, the vessel, which contains the spirit of life. How fitting it is for us to celebrate the Octave of Jesus coming by reflecting on how Jesus presence can be alive in this world by our embracing the seven principles of Kwanzaa!).

Contact: Bro. James P. Newson, Jr.
NBCAL 212-868-1847
www.blackcatholicsforlife.org



DECEMBER BLACK HISTORY DATES

December 1
Montgomery Bus Boycott begins, 1955 December 4
Alpha Phi Alpha, 1906

December 19
Carter G. Woodson, Father of Negro History born, 1875

December 24
Natl. Council of Negro Women founded, 1935

December 25
CHRISTMAS, 2005

December 26
Kwanzaa begins, Umoja (Unity)

December 27
Kwanzaa, Kujichagulia (Self-Determination)

December 28
Kwanzaa, Ujima (Collective Work and Responsibility)

December 29
Kwanzaa, Ujamaa (Cooperative Economics)
Lucy Terry writes first poem, 1746

December 30
Kwanzaa, Nia (Purpose)

December 31
NEW YEAR'S EVE
Kwanzaa, Kuumba (Creativity)
http://www.blackandchristian.com/mth/events.shtml

 

[Details]

I don't mean to be the geography monitor, Details, but most of Africa lies North of the Equator. (South America is the opposite.)

Still your point that tropical cultures may view the seasons differently stands.

I knew a lot of it did, I thought a fair bit was south, but I don't know exactly how much.

Yeah, talking to some people from India, and I found that the idea that everyone has a winter holiday is a bit off - and, of course, winter isn't December for everyone.

 

[Dark Knight]

No offense, but Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Hannukah and was created for African Americans to feel pride about their cultural roots and spiritual traditions.

That post sounds like an effort to pit African Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa in opposition to Jews who celebrate Hannukah. Surely, that was not your Merry Christmas intention?

Jews and blacks have had plenty of tension long before I came around, lol. Especially in major cities like NY. That could be part of the motivator for this 'holiday.' "Ohhh, we gotta have a winter holiday too! Let's have our own menorah even!"

 

[windovervocalcords]

Jews and blacks have had plenty of tension long before I came around, lol. Especially in major cities like NY. That could be part of the motivator for this 'holiday.' "Ohhh, we gotta have a winter holiday too! Let's have our own menorah even!"

You just make up stuff like that. About other peoples motivations Wow. Strange use of creativity.

Is that view supposed to make us all feel connected to one another at Christmas?

 

[Nova]

I knew a lot of it did, I thought a fair bit was south, but I don't know exactly how much.

A fair bit is. You're right about that. Africa is huge.

 

[Nova]

Jews and blacks have had plenty of tension long before I came around, lol. Especially in major cities like NY. That could be part of the motivator for this 'holiday.' "Ohhh, we gotta have a winter holiday too! Let's have our own menorah even!"

As long as we're making broad assumptions about people we don't know, I'd like to assert that Dark Knight doesn't like Kwanzaa because like most conservatives, he rejects out of hand anything that's new.

 

[Love_Mama]

Thought I'd pass this on....thought it was very sweet.

My very best girlfriend for over forty years became a Jew when she married a man who was Jewish. All five of her children became Jews too.

One of my son's married a Jewish girl so my grandson is Jewish. All of my family and children are Christians however we also celebrate Chanukah because of my one grandson. I looked for hours to find my menorah this year but finally remembered that it had gotten a little wobbly and I'd given it to someone to fix..then told them they could have it..so bought on Ebay and just got it yesterday. I just love it and it's very sturdy!

I just got a Chanukah card from this girlfriend yesterday. Inside she wrote............

"Hi sweetie. You definitely are an Honorary Jew......your matzo ball soup alone qualifies you".

So............may I say 'Happy Chanukah to all of you of the Jewish Faith. It is truly a wonderful celebration.

xxxxxxxxooooooooo
mama
:blowkiss: :blowkiss:

 

[Nova]

Thought I'd pass this on....

How lovely, LM! (Our grandchildren are Jewish on their father's side (doesn't count to Conservatives and Orthodox, I know), but he and his family don't practice and don't celebrate any of the holidays. Too bad!)

 

[cappuccina]

...I think you are offended by Kwanzaa...

Don't project your racism onto the Jews...

 

[IrishMist]

I just wish there was more Chanukah stuff in the stores. My daughter's boyfriend and his family are Jewish, and I have a hard time finding a decent selection of wraps/bags, etc.

 

[windovervocalcords]

...I think you are offended by Kwanzaa...

Don't project your racism onto the Jews...

I'll tell you how much I appreciate Dark Knight. Really. If he didn't say the extreme things he does then we would have no opportunity to explore so many topics.

Many of these topics of cultural sensitivity and pluralism we owe to Dark Knight being on the Christmas War offensive.

 

[cappuccina]

Irish Mist...you can get lots of nice and inexpensive hannukah stuff at Oriental Trading:

http://www.orientaltrading.com/appl...hannukah&Ntk=all&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&N=0

 

[IrishMist]

You've got a good point, WOVC.

And thanks, Cappy!