JAG Armchair Psych Profile Family Dynamics

[passionflower]

I opened a thread up as to what neighbors say????
any news articles about coming and going and what was said.

 

[Curious Me]

"Hope that helps...it's a convoluted topic, personality disorders, and can be really, really interesting when one gets down into it. It can also be really, really scary."

Best-
Herding Cats

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, I will ignore that huge elephant in the room. LOL

It did help a great deal. Thank You, Herding Cats. I've learned from you to not take such a simple view of diagnosis. In your initial post about the axis, you mentioned Borderline Personality Disorder, BPD. Where does that fit in with your explanation - is it in the same category as NPD or AS? Then, there's the Cluster traits. Where do they come in to the diagnosis? I was trying to make some kind of visual chart for myself, and didn't know where to put those. No wonder people want to cut to the chase and just say "he's a Psychopath".

Justsomeinfo and adpilove might be able to fill in something more about his background. Gardner did graduate, so he has the intelligence. I know his Defense will probably try with a mental defense, but I don't think it'll work.

 

[Leila]

I'm not sure JBean has said that, Voice4theSilent. She may be considering
what to do as we speak. I too believe what was going on in the house, is very significant in JAG's overall whatever he did or was involved in.

I agree. The mother/step-father were members of this group since at least as far back as 2002, perhaps longer. JAG was exposed to the sexual activities of this group, which were part of the party after jogging. JAG is pictured as becoming a member of this group in the past year or so, along with a woman who may have been his girlfriend.

 

[Mick]

I opened a thread up as to what neighbors say????
any news articles about coming and going and what was said.

Could you please link us to there, Passionflower??

 

[Curious Me]

FYI - Scroll down this page until you see Forum Jump, hit go. It takes you to the complete Chelsea King Forum with the many different threads.



Garage Door Thread is here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97330"]The Garage Door Vandalism - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Voice4theSilent]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/06/deeply-troubled-picture-emerges-of-suspects-life/

I have to add that in the above article it states JAG's biological father may have been pushed out of his son's life by JAG's mother (as documented in family court documents.) Perhaps she had a good reason to do so, or perhaps it was because she was angry that he remarried his 1st wife the same year her and JAG's father were divorced. I am sure those abandonment issues followed him throughout his life and may also have led to some level of resentment towards his mother, his father or both. I know that most people who are a product of the same family dynamics do not end up as murderers however that coupled with his alleged bi-polar disorder and whatever else may have been going on with him mentally, it may have played a large part. IIHO.

 

[Mick]

Within any large group there may be subgroups, or individuals whose behavior is not considered normal to the group or society at large. Some of us have found extreme sexual content regarding parts of this group, including JAG's mom.

 

[Curious Me]

He tried to attack girls or women. He is a RSO. Now, he is faced with Chelsea's death, and possibly Amber"s. I pray there's not others we don't know about. It seems to indicate some kind of deep seated rage and hatred for young girls and women at times when it felt his life was falling apart maybe because ultimately he always blamed his parents/mother. The relative on the radio interview did say he not only ruined his life, but his mother's. It might have a hint of a final revenge directed at her to commit this crime right from the family home.

Chelsea's gone, and we can't forget that.

 

[Herding Cats]

Okay, I will ignore that huge elephant in the room. LOL

Me too, for now.

Thank You, Herding Cats. I've learned from you to not take such a simple view of diagnosis. In your initial post about the axis, you mentioned Borderline Personality Disorder, BPD. Where does that fit in with your explanation - is it in the same category as NPD or AS? Then, there's the Cluster traits. Where do they come in to the diagnosis? I was trying to make some kind of visual chart for myself, and didn't know where to put those. No wonder people want to cut to the chase and just say "he's a Psychopath".

Isn't it easier? LOL.

It's easier, in my head, to think about Axis 1 and 2 as together:
Axis 1 schizophrenia, axis 2 cluster A (eccentric, paranoid beliefs)
Axis 1 bipolar, axis 2 cluster B ("All about me")
Axis 1 depression, axis 2 cluster C (OCD, fearful, dependent)


Cluster B disorders are tagged with "all about me"...it's all personally driven, it's all about the person who has the disorder. According to the DSM-IV/TR (latest edition of the book used to diagnose mental illnesses), the characteristics of AS are:
~Failure to conform to the norms of society (e.g. breaking the law)
~lying, manipulation, and/or conning for personal gain
~failure to plan ahead, impulsivity
~irritable, aggressive
~consistent financial irresponsibility
~careless disregard for safety of self/others (mostly others)
~lack of remorse, rationalizing away others' feelings
1. Conduct disorder before age 15
2. Diagnosis cannot be made until after age 18.
3. Antisocial behavior occurring outside of a schizophrenic or manic episode.

So, now let's look at BPD (Cluster B):
~frantic attempts to avoid real or imagined abandonment (may be violent in nature)
~intense, unstable relationships formed and lost repeatedly
~impulsivity
~recurrent threats, gestures, or actual suicidal behaviors (with intent, usually related to an abandonment)
~self-injury (picking at skin, suicidal attempts, headbanging, punching walls)
~inappropriate anger, inability to control anger, explosive rage
~stress related, transient paranoia, psychosis
~Identity disturbance

Please note that it takes many of the characteristics, happening over a period of time, to develop a diagnosis. And also, there are a lot of overlapping areas between all the Cluster B criteria (as you can see by those above).

If one looks at JAG, several of these criteria are met:
AS:
Lying, conning, manipulation
Careless disregard for others
Irritable, aggressive
Impulsivity
Lack of remorse

BPD:
Intense unstable relationships
Impulsivity
Inappropriate anger (recall the argument with the relative)
Identity disturbance (recall the radical weight changes)

Background for JAG which contribute to the BPD thought is percieved or real abandonment by his father, real or percieved abandonment by his mother, real or percieved abandonment by his girlfriend/mother of his children. The last also goes to the intense, unstable relationship aspect. Inappropriate anger, apparently, has been part of his makeup for a while - he was diagnosed as an SED child, which is often based on a violent emotional reaction/outburst. And we can't ignore the hospitalization when he was a child; it was probably involuntary, which means that he posed a danger to self/others; we also know he was diagnosed with bipolar and took lithium to control that but stopped after the s/e developed. We do not know if he was given any other medication, or if he simply stopped taking the drug on his own (which often happens...).

What we don't know is when the bipolar diagnosis was made, was it 1 or 2, and for how long he was hospitalized (different lengths of time will tell me a lot about the legal aspects of his illness...). What we do know is that one psychiatrist advocated the strongest possible sentence, and warned JAG would continue the behavior if he was released, while a different psychiatrist said completely otherwise.

"Duelling shrinks" are not uncommon in the legal end of things...what is uncommon is that a judge did not split the difference, and sentence JAG to a longer sentence (but not the longest one). Further, it's interesting to note that JAG did not get a civil commitment post sentencing.

How diagnoses are made is difficult. There are a lot of interviews, meds, and a lengthy history taken, all which point to what it should be. Some people come in very clearly psychotic; others come in appearing to be normal and fine. Some folks don't tell you the truth when it comes to the history, so families are called; most families are willing to give information, but some are not. If this is a new hospital/dr the patient comes to, there is no previous history to work from. It can be a bit difficult to accurately diagnose right off the bat, and things are compounded when no-one wants to talk about it.

In essence, the diagnosis for Axis 1 is relatively clearcut. Schizophrenia, Depression, and Bi-polar are the three catagories; if there isn't a clear one, it's 'psychosis NOS', meaning not otherwise specified. Then cluster A, B, or C (Axis 2) traits are identified, through oral histories from patient, family, friends. Hopefully, any medical history (Axis 3) has been gotten already (e.g. diabetes, hypertension, and so forth), and Axis 4, the psychosocial support is determined; then the Global Assessment Functioning (Axis 5) is done, which yeilds a numerical score. If you're in society, your score is likely 68 or above. Below, and you tend to be unable to care for yourself. I've seen patients with scores of 12 and 15 while they were acute, but who rose to the 50s and 60s once medication was properly administered and enough psychotherapy was done.

There is a lot of putting the pieces together, a lot of observation, and a lot of talking/listening (and knowing what you're hearing...two different things) that has to happen for an accurate diagnosis.

Good grief, I wrote a novel. Sorry. As you can see, this is a fascinating topic for me...

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Here is a link that describes the Hash House Harriers best way I can describe it:

http://matadornights.com/how-to-be-a-hash-house-harrier/

The times I've gone, it was always very tame, just people wanting to socialize after going for a run. Partiers but also athletes. I've never experienced that it was people looking for sex or to swing and if there are people that 'branch off' and do this, it's not what the club itself is like. It's a very big group worldwide and I know when I've been out of town and wanted people to run and socialize with, I could sometimes find them and run with them. It's not what you're thinking, believe me, it's going down the wrong path.

Are you saying you went to the same exact group that JAG was associated with out of San Diego with the same members?

Of course I am not stating that the worldwide group/club is anything more than a social running club nor am I stating that all or even most of the members of subgroups of the club in mention are associated with the things I described as occuring in the pictures I viewed online. I am saying that from what I have viewed regarding the specific subgroup (or some of the members of that specific subgroup) that JAG is associated with in one way or another, the things that I descibed did occur on at least one occassion, (which was a camping trip the group took somewhere in Riverside County) and such hyper active sexual behaviors and or sexual deviant behaviors of a group he may have been a member of might be relevant to this case.

In all due respect, in not way is it "going down the wrong path" to describe what was occuring in the pictures of one of their outings that were placed on an easily accessible website belonging to that particular subgroup.

 

[eyes4crime]

Yes, I certainly agree. I'm not an expert either. I'm still working on completing a BA in Psych I started in the 70's. An injury sent me back to school, 70% compression of L1, looking for something I could do that wasn't so physical. I did manage to pick up a certificate in Addiction Studies, and am getting good grades in the classes I take. Would like to go on to a Master's, even at my mature age. At the moment, I'm focusing on Suicide Prevention, and hope to expand a Prevention Team after the next training the University is putting on. Last spring the team at the time did a day long presentation at the high school in conjunction with Yellow Ribbon Day. We decided to not harp on suicide for a whole week, as the Yellow Ribbon project is a week long thing, which the school nurse thought might be too much thinking about suicide, and we agreed. We didn't want to get the kids obsessing about it, but make them aware of the symptoms and how to get help from themselves or anyone they know who might be depressed or openly considering ending their lives.

This time they're having the training right in our town, so hopefully more from our community will be there. Our area has twice the State and National levels of suicide, and that's something we'd like to see corrected. I'm not an 'expert' but have some training and may be able to add insight in some cases.

Yes, I have seen several people far over medicated. I've found two cases of rage in people on respiradal/respiradone. Stop the drug, the rage stops too.

It seems that in some it creates EXTREME anger. It's becoming well known that SSRI's can cause spinouts too. The idea of keeping serotonin cycling in the synapses seems ill advised, as serotonin breaks down into other chemicals necessary for good mental and emotional health. I like the idea of increasing serotonin in the whole body, which can be easily done with 5 HTP for a short period of time. In the cases I've seen that have tried the 5 HTP, they seem to come up fast and stay balanced. Wider investigation is needed. The vast majority of serotonin receptors are in the intestines, not the brain. Sometimes psychologists spend too much time in the head and not enough on the rest of the body, is my sense of the situation.

Hi Mick - Not really wanting to complicate things, but here is some info you might be interested in - just a note regarding serotonin receptors. There are 7 subtypes of receptors and the ones in the gut have drugs specific for them. Such as Zofran, an anti-nausea drug given in chemotherapy.

Roles in the brain
Serotonin stored in granules in a presynaptic neuron and serotonin receptors on a postsynaptic neuron. Source:drugabuse.gov
Serotonin receptors in the brain are responsible for the the widely-known effects of this molecule on mood and the sometimes profound effects caused by serotonin-based psychiatric medications. Of these medications, the most important type are the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), of which fluoxetine (Prozac) is the prime example. Interference or augmentation of serotonin in the brain is the basis of drugs for schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and others.

Roles in the intestine

Serotonin is an important signaling molecule in the gastrointestinal (GI) system, where it functions to initiate gut motility, allow the stomach to expand, and transmit information to the CNS.[1] Drugs that either block (antagonists) or stimulate (agonists) specific serotonin receptor subtypes in the gut have been approved for certain GI disorders; examples include tegaserod (Zelnorm), granisetron (Kytril), ondansetron (Zofran), and alosetron (Lotronex). Tegaserod is a partial agonist of the 5-HT(4) receptor and is approved for treatment of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and chronic constipation. Granisetron and ondansetron are used in treating nausea associated with cancer chemotherapy. Alosetron is used in the treatment of IBS with diarrhea. Serotonin also plays a role in the stomach, where it acts on 5-HT(1) receptors to allow the stomach to expand.

http://wiki.medpedia.com/Serotonin

Been a clinical pharmacist for decades and would be happy to answer any questions anyone might have regarding this case. If I can't answer the question, I may have some professional books that may help. Just let me know.

eyes4crime

 

[Mick]

Interesting, Eye4Crime...

It's amazing how increasingly specific targeting
of individual receptors can be done. Are there 'splatter'
effects for some of these drugs, that have yet to be
identified?

I was speaking more of raising serotonin levels
in the whole body. What do you think about some
of these pieces of research?

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=5+HTP+serotonin&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

 

[Curious Me]

Me too, for now.


Good grief, I wrote a novel. Sorry. As you can see, this is a fascinating topic for me...

Best-
Herding Cats

:aktion033::applause::applause::applause::bow:
Thank You Herding Cats. The way you are able to give me the info so it makes much more sense is awesome. I will be using your posts info as homework to study how to look and listen better for determine dx. You are really very good at what you do, and seem to care about getting the truth to help the person.

Your take on it is very insightful. Do you think the Defense will use some kind of mental defense?

 

[Herding Cats]

Thank You Herding Cats. The way you are able to give me the info so it makes much more sense is awesome. I will be using your posts info as homework to study how to look and listen better for determine dx. You are really very good at what you do, and seem to care about getting the truth to help the person.

Your take on it is very insightful. Do you think the Defense will use some kind of mental defense?

I don't think the defense will be using an insanity defense...far too much evidence pointing elsewise. The defense's best bet is to make a deal, LWOP him to get the death penalty off the table (which I think is what happened w/ the Amber Dubois location).

If an insanity defense is tried, it will fail dismally...I've seen truly insane people, and he is not it.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[passionflower]

For the first time in JAG's life he may be getting the attention he craves???
Talking about his crimes may be theaputic if he is back on meds????

 

[JBean]

Just removed twenty offtopic posts from the last 2 pages of this thread discussing another case.
I also removed 20 something posts and created a new thread about the jogging club .
if you cand raw some specific parallels that have some decent foundation, then please reference them in this thread. but the discussion about the jogging club itslef should really be on the other thread.

As always,as things are revealed or develop, this can always change.


thanks everyone.

 

[Curious Me]

Okay, let's get regrouped and stay on topic here.

The relative on the radio interview spoke of Gardner's grandmother being very ill, and in fact, Gardner escorted her to the hospital I guess with the relative. Anyways, I think this may have seemed to Gardner like one more abandonment issue too many. Was he close to his GM? I certainly feel bad for his GM being sick, and now THIS HUGE BOMBSHELL. (I'm saying it for NG 'cause she apparently had the weekend off)

 

[passionflower]

Maybe GM was the only real mom figure and stable person in his life?
Do we know where JAG tried to stay at GM house for 3 days???
Could he have done any crimes around her house???

 

[Herding Cats]

I must say, I'm surprised if he was talking, and led them to Amber's body. If he did, it was to save his own neck...made a deal to take death off the table, and only LWOP'd.

Gma's hospitalization and illness, leading to the eviction from the house in Lake Elsinore, would definitely seem like an abandonment/rejection issue...

Just not sure yet what to think.

Best-
Herding Cats

ETA: It seems he was not the source of the lead. According to an article posted in Amber's forum, someone else gave the lead. What is interesting is this: the lead was rather specific...and in that rural area, it would need to be very, very specific to be able to locate Amber's body. This leads me to believe that whomever gave the lead to LE, had gone to the site before...gone or was taken. And I'm thinking the leadgiver is a female, close to JAG...

Utter blue skying here, but...what if it was his most recent girlfriend, and he had taken her to the site to 'show her what happens when people leave me' kind of thing? And then, because she was frightened of him, she held the information until now, and came forward because of pressure on her by LE (and they would be questioning her closely...) or because she finally felt safe from him and felt horrible that her secret led to another child's life being taken.

Just a few thoughts rambling around what passes for my brain on a Sunday evening.

 

[Curious Me]

Never thought of that, Herding Cats. Wow, that would be a terrible position to be in for her.

Imagine how angry jag was being thrown out of GM house and having to go back to stay at his Mom's. "I'll show them" could have been going through his mind.

So, you think he may have told someone? Who else could be talking?