Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

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  • #781
Jahi McMath: New tests may not be enough to declare her alive, experts say

Not so for Jahi, who would have celebrated her 14th birthday on Friday. Almost 11 months after she was first declared brain dead and became the subject of a national debate, the Oakland 13-year-old remains on machines -- a case unlike any recorded in the United States since the medical establishment first recognized brain death as a form of death in the past century, experts said.

"Right now, it is one of the very strangest (cases in recent memory). No question," said Lawrence Nelson, a lawyer with a background in end-of-life issues and associate professor of philosophy at Santa Clara University School of Law.

"There's a big house of cards," said Thaddeus Pope, director of the health law institute at Hamlin University. "I'm not saying they are wrong; they may be able to prove this. They just have not collected the evidence in a systematic way. I don't think the declarations in and of themselves win the game."

"He points out some very serious flaws," Pope said of Fisher. "The biggest takeaway is one of the bases for determining if someone satisfies the criteria for brain death is a personal examination. None (of the current doctors) have done that."

Added Wade Smith, director of the neuroscience intensive care unit at UCSF: "There's still a lot of information that's not there to look at and be comfortable with," Smith said. "If she is alive, it's a very, very important case. If she's not alive, it's also important to confirm that for the family."
http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_26799085/jahi-mcmath-new-tests-may-not-be-enough

ETA: Peruse some of the 400-ish comments following the article. Some are fairly intelligent responses (compared to the usual comments after articles), and many seem to have closely followed the case.
 
  • #782
KZ, I wanted to ask you about how the nurses and caregivers handle a situation like this, caring for a deceased young girl who is essentially dead. How does one reconcile this?
 
  • #783
KZ, I wanted to ask you about how the nurses and caregivers handle a situation like this, caring for a deceased young girl who is essentially dead. How does one reconcile this?

Well, most hospital based care givers are only in this situation (caring for a patient properly diagnosed brain dead) for a matter of hours or a few days, while one of 3 things happen:

1. The family moves from denial to acceptance
2. Very close family members are enroute to the hospital
3. Awaiting organ donation/ recovery team arrival/ OR scheduling, etc.

Actually, in those 3 typical circumstances, I can't remember anyone I worked with having any difficulty emotionally or otherwise with the situation. In the case of #1, most recognize that the shock and denial are a sad part of coming to terms with losing their loved one, and most have a tremendous amount of patience and compassion for the families. Even the angry families-- most caregivers know anger is another form of grief. The care of the family becomes the focus, even as the ICU care of the body continues. There is just an understanding that there will be no heroics for the body as it fails. The goal in denial is to gently and consistently impart the message that the person is gone, no matter that the body is warm, and continuously re-assess and document where the family is at in in the process of acceptance. Take the focus off the machines and numbers, and try to find out where the family needs more info to accept the situation. This can be really, really hard to do with angry families. Consistent assignment of caregivers does help some-- helps to establish trust, etc. But these are probably the most challenging families to ever deal with. An angry patient or family is a sign that they need MORE attention from staff, and MORE patience and information, not avoidance, as I tell my students. But humans being human, many want to avoid angry and disagreeable patients and families as much as possible. Everyone likes families who are appreciative, polite, reasonable, etc. They are the easy ones. The hardest patients are the less educated, angry ones who act out in a loud fashion. I do think Jahi's family was extremely difficult, and tremendously frustrating for the staff at CHO to work with. JMO.

In #2, again, the focus is the family and their needs. As long as the interval of family arriving isn't "too long" (and every hospital and ICU and doc/ admin team defines that differently), most places in the past would maintain the body till family arrives to say good bye and find out what happened in person.

The sad part of Jahi's legacy is that I fear that hospitals could very well end up being more inclined to "define" this period of time more stringently now-- establishing policies that favor the hospital functioning (ie, removal of ventilators, esp if ICU beds are scarce and in high demand), over the conclusion of the dying/ death process for enroute families. In essence, the very high profile actions of Jahi's family may continue to negatively impact future families all over the U.S., if such "hurry up and disconnect" or "hurry up and get them out of ICU" policies become commonplace and "standard". The best possible outcome there (if policies tighten up about maintaining brain dead people in ICUs) IMO, would be provisions in the policies to move the brain dead person out of the ICU into a private room on a regular medical floor within the facility-- perhaps with a home care ventilator and very basic care and monitoring, instead of the ICU vents and equipment, if those are scarce in a given facility. Does this make sense? Kind of like inpatient hospice. Remove all monitors except maybe the heart monitor, remove intracranial pressure monitoring (etc), and move to private room with "no further resuscitative care" orders.

In #3 above, no one I know has a problem with maintaining a brain dead donor for the sake of the potential organ recipients. It's kind of like vicariously caring attentively for a patient you'll never meet, KWIM? Keep everything optimized for the sake of the organ recipients. The body of the brain dead person has one last opportunity to help others, when the family directs organ donation, so we honor that request and the dead person by doing the very best possible for the future recipients.

I wanted to add to the second situation above. In my experience, all of the ICU equipment and "numbers" is a very distracting situation for both caregivers AND families when there is brain death. It's common to find a lot of conversations focused on explaining what various machines do, and what numbers "mean" to the families. In the case of brain death, I think the removal of much of this helps families to focus on the person they loved, and not the horrific ICP numbers or BP or something, and how to "fix" those, etc. The very environment of the ICU, with urgent situations all around, is hard for families of dying and dead patients for whom there will be no more "urgent". If done right, and with extreme compassion, moving that person to an out of the way room on the unit, or off the unit, and discontinuing a lot of machinery and monitoring, lowering the lights, providing unlimited visiting, focusing on physical care of the body and not IV drips, etc. is best for the family. It communicates that we still care, but sends the message that we are winding down the acute care as the family comes to terms with the dying process.
 
  • #784
...
The sad part of Jahi's legacy is that I fear that hospitals could very well end up being more inclined to "define" this period of time more stringently now-- establishing policies that favor the hospital functioning (ie, removal of ventilators, esp if ICU beds are scarce and in high demand), over the conclusion of the dying/ death process for enroute families. In essence, the very high profile actions of Jahi's family may continue to negatively impact future families all over the U.S., if such "hurry up and disconnect" or "hurry up and get them out of ICU" policies become commonplace and "standard". The best possible outcome there (if policies tighten up about maintaining brain dead people in ICUs) IMO, would be provisions in the policies to move the brain dead person out of the ICU into a private room on a regular medical floor within the facility-- perhaps with a home care ventilator and very basic care and monitoring, instead of the ICU vents and equipment, if those are scarce in a given facility. Does this make sense? Kind of like inpatient hospice. Remove all monitors except maybe the heart monitor, remove intracranial pressure monitoring (etc), and move to private room with "no further resuscitative care" orders.

bbm

I agree, and share this fear. Hospitals have the law on their side in this matter, and instead of letting a grossly out-of-control and furious family dictate how the hospital operates via the media, hospitals will just turn to the law in establishing policies that override angry families. CHO tried to do this, but they were too late in that the family went to the law FIRST. That put CHO on the defensive, and gave them a burden they weren't really prepared to defend. Going forward, this will give hospitals the initiative and motive to plan for and create legal filings that will be "cookie-cutter"-ish, to just fill in the blank of the decedent and file with the courts as soon as a family shows signs of being defiantly angry. The hospitals do have a business to run, and while their primary function is to care for and treat living human beings, they have zero obligation to bleed resources on the deceased. To some, this may be a cold, hard, and difficult fact to swallow, but that's reality and when someone becomes defiantly angry, it may just be time to go around them and let them play their games on their own time, in their own home, and not in a hospital with a TV camera behind them.

JMO, of course.
 
  • #785
bbm

I agree, and share this fear. Hospitals have the law on their side in this matter, and instead of letting a grossly out-of-control and furious family dictate how the hospital operates via the media, hospitals will just turn to the law in establishing policies that override angry families. CHO tried to do this, but they were too late in that the family went to the law FIRST. That put CHO on the defensive, and gave them a burden they weren't really prepared to defend. Going forward, this will give hospitals the initiative and motive to plan for and create legal filings that will be "cookie-cutter"-ish, to just fill in the blank of the decedent and file with the courts as soon as a family shows signs of being defiantly angry. The hospitals do have a business to run, and while their primary function is to care for and treat living human beings, they have zero obligation to bleed resources on the deceased. To some, this may be a cold, hard, and difficult fact to swallow, but that's reality and when someone becomes defiantly angry, it may just be time to go around them and let them play their games on their own time, in their own home, and not in a hospital with a TV camera behind them.

JMO, of course.

I tend to agree, for hospitals in urban locations. I think it would be awful to have to get hosptial lawyers and courts involved with every brain dead patient's case with irritated/ angry/ belligerent families. Even in these very difficult situations, I think the best way to handle it is to continue to TRY to make a connection with the angry families-- to educate them in a transparent manner about what has happened. They still may file lawsuits later for malpractice, etc, but if they are treated VERY compassionately, with lots of support from social workers, docs, nurses, etc-- that becomes a form of defense for the hospital in an future lawsuit. I think hospitals should offer to even bring in experts from outside the facility if it would help the family understand and accept-- maybe provide a list of experts willing to consult, and arranging the family speak with them without interfering. (Like what the courts did with Jahi and Dr. Fisher.) If the hospital simply fills out court papers and avoids the angry and difficult families, it looks like a rush to shut off the machines, and looks (to the families) like somebody is trying to cover up something.

The minute something like this hits the courts to be worked out, no one wins. It's a lose/ lose situation for both the family and the hospital, IMO.

I don't know what all CHO did offer to help the family, but I think they did go pretty far out of their way to try and make a meaningful connection. The fact that the chief of staff was personally involved says that. I think it's really sad that this had to go to court at all. IMO, actually by "winning" in court, the family has only lengthened and deepened their own pain. (And anger, and determination to "win".) Truly a Pyrrhic victory for NW, IMO. She "won" against the goliath hospital, and has her daughter's body to do with as she wishes, but has the double burden of certain medical futility, and a death certificate to overcome.

If NW had asked to take Jahi's body home on a vent earlier on in the adversarial process that evolved, it's likely CHO would have eagerly jumped at the opportunity to make that happen.
 
  • #786
Well, most hospital based care givers are only in this situation (caring for a patient properly diagnosed brain dead) for a matter of hours or a few days, while one of 3 things happen:

1. The family moves from denial to acceptance
2. Very close family members are enroute to the hospital
3. Awaiting organ donation/ recovery team arrival/ OR scheduling, etc.

Actually, in those 3 typical circumstances, I can't remember anyone I worked with having any difficulty emotionally or otherwise with the situation. In the case of #1, most recognize that the shock and denial are a sad part of coming to terms with losing their loved one, and most have a tremendous amount of patience and compassion for the families. Even the angry families-- most caregivers know anger is another form of grief. The care of the family becomes the focus, even as the ICU care of the body continues. There is just an understanding that there will be no heroics for the body as it fails. The goal in denial is to gently and consistently impart the message that the person is gone, no matter that the body is warm, and continuously re-assess and document where the family is at in in the process of acceptance. Take the focus off the machines and numbers, and try to find out where the family needs more info to accept the situation. This can be really, really hard to do with angry families. Consistent assignment of caregivers does help some-- helps to establish trust, etc. But these are probably the most challenging families to ever deal with. An angry patient or family is a sign that they need MORE attention from staff, and MORE patience and information, not avoidance, as I tell my students. But humans being human, many want to avoid angry and disagreeable patients and families as much as possible. Everyone likes families who are appreciative, polite, reasonable, etc. They are the easy ones. The hardest patients are the less educated, angry ones who act out in a loud fashion. I do think Jahi's family was extremely difficult, and tremendously frustrating for the staff at CHO to work with. JMO.

In #2, again, the focus is the family and their needs. As long as the interval of family arriving isn't "too long" (and every hospital and ICU and doc/ admin team defines that differently), most places in the past would maintain the body till family arrives to say good bye and find out what happened in person.

The sad part of Jahi's legacy is that I fear that hospitals could very well end up being more inclined to "define" this period of time more stringently now-- establishing policies that favor the hospital functioning (ie, removal of ventilators, esp if ICU beds are scarce and in high demand), over the conclusion of the dying/ death process for enroute families. In essence, the very high profile actions of Jahi's family may continue to negatively impact future families all over the U.S., if such "hurry up and disconnect" or "hurry up and get them out of ICU" policies become commonplace and "standard". The best possible outcome there (if policies tighten up about maintaining brain dead people in ICUs) IMO, would be provisions in the policies to move the brain dead person out of the ICU into a private room on a regular medical floor within the facility-- perhaps with a home care ventilator and very basic care and monitoring, instead of the ICU vents and equipment, if those are scarce in a given facility. Does this make sense? Kind of like inpatient hospice. Remove all monitors except maybe the heart monitor, remove intracranial pressure monitoring (etc), and move to private room with "no further resuscitative care" orders.

In #3 above, no one I know has a problem with maintaining a brain dead donor for the sake of the potential organ recipients. It's kind of like vicariously caring attentively for a patient you'll never meet, KWIM? Keep everything optimized for the sake of the organ recipients. The body of the brain dead person has one last opportunity to help others, when the family directs organ donation, so we honor that request and the dead person by doing the very best possible for the future recipients.

I wanted to add to the second situation above. In my experience, all of the ICU equipment and "numbers" is a very distracting situation for both caregivers AND families when there is brain death. It's common to find a lot of conversations focused on explaining what various machines do, and what numbers "mean" to the families. In the case of brain death, I think the removal of much of this helps families to focus on the person they loved, and not the horrific ICP numbers or BP or something, and how to "fix" those, etc. The very environment of the ICU, with urgent situations all around, is hard for families of dying and dead patients for whom there will be no more "urgent". If done right, and with extreme compassion, moving that person to an out of the way room on the unit, or off the unit, and discontinuing a lot of machinery and monitoring, lowering the lights, providing unlimited visiting, focusing on physical care of the body and not IV drips, etc. is best for the family. It communicates that we still care, but sends the message that we are winding down the acute care as the family comes to terms with the dying process.

Beautifully written.

I have taken care of patients that were deceased in the short term, awaiting family members as well as for organ donation. I am wondering about the caregivers now, that are taking care of Jahi, 10 months after she was declared deceased. How do the nurses reconcile this morally and ethically?

What kind of mindset do these nurses have to adopt? I loved your explanation above as it explains so much. Just how do they keep going, knowing this is all for naught?
 
  • #787
I don't know what all CHO did offer to help the family, but I think they did go pretty far out of their way to try and make a meaningful connection. The fact that the chief of staff was personally involved says that. I think it's really sad that this had to go to court at all. IMO, actually by "winning" in court, the family has only lengthened and deepened their own pain. (And anger, and determination to "win".) Truly a Pyrrhic victory for NW, IMO. She "won" against the goliath hospital, and has her daughter's body to do with as she wishes, but has the double burden of certain medical futility, and a death certificate to overcome.

If NW had asked to take Jahi's body home on a vent earlier on in the adversarial process that evolved, it's likely CHO would have eagerly jumped at the opportunity to make that happen.
Oh, the hospital bent over backwards for this family...literally overlooked and suspended numerous safety and health policies in the PICU area, including the family waiting area of the PICU. They gave the family special exception to the "2-visitor" policy by allowing the family to have as many as 8 visitors inside the PICU (I remember statements to the effect that the family got mad when the PICU staff were trying to get to the body to try and recover it from full code, and the staff had to push family members out of the way because they were all crowded around), and turned the family waiting area into a "slumber party sleepover cost-free hotel suite" for the family. The family took advantage of these things by "trashing" the family waiting area, not cleaning up after themselves, and deliberately bringing in foods that would emit very strong odors, in an effort to "irritate" other families and the staff (we have instagram evidence of this behavior, and Nailah thought it was an extremely funny prank.) All these things were overlooked by the hospital, and the hospital just cleaned up after them without saying a word.

The hospital also allowed the family to remove the Christmas tree from the downstairs lobby - which the hospital paid for and staff decorated - and put that Christmas tree in Jahi's PICU room - they didn't even ask...they just did it. Again, overlooked by the hospital, with a smile. CHO provided the family with free meals and drinks from the hospital cafeteria, whenever they desired, and even gave them a cart to shuttle hordes of food and drinks from the cafeteria to their "hotel suite" family waiting area.

Simply put, the hospital basically allowed the immediate, extended, and marginally-related family to move into the hospital for the duration of the body's stay. When a hospital suspends safety and health policies in an ICU environment, it's an easy conclusion to make that the hospital went way above and beyond to try to help the family come to terms with reality and accept what happened.

(This next part I've said before, but it's important to keep in mind.) Yep, it's likely true an administrator did eventually get firm and "cold" with Nailah by saying, "Your child is dead, dead, dead. Why don't you understand that?" But it's extremely possible this only happened after Nailah became defiantly angry and belligerent with that administrator time and time and time again, and the administrator just became frustrated in the heat of a very bad moment. I can't blame him. Just her facial expressions are enough to put people off - she emits an aura of disgust and hatred with her expressions, and that's enough for me to probably be immediately defensive or not want to help. I'm not a health care worker and never desire to be, because I just cannot bring myself to help people who are not genuine. Maybe that's just the retired-Army hardass in me: I don't put up with BS.
 
  • #788
Beautifully written.

I have taken care of patients that were deceased in the short term, awaiting family members as well as for organ donation. I am wondering about the caregivers now, that are taking care of Jahi, 10 months after she was declared deceased. How do the nurses reconcile this morally and ethically?

What kind of mindset do these nurses have to adopt? I loved your explanation above as it explains so much. Just how do they keep going, knowing this is all for naught?

Well, nursing at its essence is to "care" for people. Nursing historically isn't about curing. (Or at least that's what nursing professors teach, lol!) It's about caring for people in all sorts of health situations from birth to death, regardless of whether the patient is capable of being improved or cured. :)

For surgeons, "to cut is to cure!" ;)

Most docs, IMO, believe their role is to cure whenever possible, then switch to care and palliation/ hospice. The wisdom, IMO, is knowing where that transition is for each person they care for.

Anesthesia, for example, IMO, is far more analogous to what nursing is, than to medicine (but don't tell anesthesiologists that, lol!) As nurse anesthetists (and anesthesiologists), we facilitate surgical, diagnostic, and therapeutic procedures that help patients. We don't "cure" anything with an anesthetic, whether we are nurse anesthetists or anesthesiologists. I am just as comfortable providing an anesthetic for a palliative procedure that will hopefully provide some pain relief for a dying patient, as I am providing an anesthetic for a "curative" surgery. (Heck, we sometimes joke that some of our anesthetics are more therapeutic for the surgeons than the patients!)
 
  • #789
I'm just now seeing this thread, and catching up on this. I can't believe it is still going on. :tsktsk:

Thanks for all of the great information!
 
  • #790
I'm just now seeing this thread, and catching up on this. I can't believe it is still going on. :tsktsk:

Thanks for all of the great information!

Welcome to the show, enjoy your stay, and be sure to bring popcorn ;)
 
  • #791
  • #792
Welcome to the show, enjoy your stay, and be sure to bring popcorn ;)

Pretty pathetic huh? :waitasec:

Poor Jahi. :cry:
 
  • #793
  • #794
I feel sorry for Jahi, but I really feel sorry foe her siblings. They have been through so much with this horrible mess. They should have grieved their loss, with the support of their family and friends and community, then MOVED ON. But it is never-ending for them. And kind of morbid, no doubt.

I have two different friends who kind of lived in the 'shadow' of lost siblings. My childhood friend lost a younger sister to a drowning during a family vacation. And her mother made the entire home a shrine to the child. And everything was about her and her memory, and my friend was neglected, emotionally and spiritually. She was even compared to her = like, if she drew a picture, mom would say, I wonder how Sonya's would have looked if she were here to draw one. :cry: My friend became an alcoholic/drug addict. Sadly.

A similar thing happened to another friend in college. She and her brother were hit by a drunk driver. Her brother was killed, and she was not hurt at all. So much guilt came from that for her. And her parents didn't help at all. She truly lived in his shadow for years. IF ONLY was the family refrain, in her mind.

So when I think about the siblings my heart hurts for them. Their childhood has been turned totally upside down.
 
  • #795
Experts say that no other patient declared brain-dead has likely gone through a second round of testing, or had a family that, like Jahi's, has tried to revoke her death certificate.

Fisher is asking for another, neutral doctor to look at Jahi, while others marvel at how the case could redefine the brain-death debate.

http://www.newser.com/story/197764/experts-tests-on-brain-dead-girl-dont-make-her-alive.html

I had not seen this information before in other articles. I'm not sure what they are basing it on, but this article states that apparently Dr. Fisher wants another neutral (court appointed?) doc, presumably a pediatric neurologist, to examine Jahi and make a report. I think that's a very good idea, if the family seeks any more court action related to "alive again".

I'd like to see Dolan make a petition to the court to ask for court appointed, independent pediatric neurologist/s to examine Jahi, in a medical setting. That would be much more credible than what he's done in the past 30 days or so, IMO.
 
  • #796
http://www.newser.com/story/197764/experts-tests-on-brain-dead-girl-dont-make-her-alive.html

I had not seen this information before in other articles. I'm not sure what they are basing it on, but this article states that apparently Dr. Fisher wants another neutral (court appointed?) doc, presumably a pediatric neurologist, to examine Jahi and make a report. I think that's a very good idea, if the family seeks any more court action related to "alive again".

I'd like to see Dolan make a petition to the court to ask for court appointed, independent pediatric neurologist/s to examine Jahi, in a medical setting. That would be much more credible than what he's done in the past 30 days or so, IMO.

...and this will happen when monkeys fly out my bum!
 
  • #797
http://www.newser.com/story/197764/experts-tests-on-brain-dead-girl-dont-make-her-alive.html

I had not seen this information before in other articles. I'm not sure what they are basing it on, but this article states that apparently Dr. Fisher wants another neutral (court appointed?) doc, presumably a pediatric neurologist, to examine Jahi and make a report. I think that's a very good idea, if the family seeks any more court action related to "alive again".

I'd like to see Dolan make a petition to the court to ask for court appointed, independent pediatric neurologist/s to examine Jahi, in a medical setting. That would be much more credible than what he's done in the past 30 days or so, IMO.
I think the writer of the article was just drawing an inference based on Dr. Fischer stating that none of the proposed experts had performed a personal exam of the decedent.

But doing so is really quite a stretch, as Dr. Fischer doesn't appear to be the type to publish opinions outside the realm of what he can definitively conclude. That is, he won't make suggestions as to what could or should be done. He just states the facts and then his professional conclusions.
 
  • #798
Marvelous explanation, thank you! Makes total sense, and fits well with the sequence of actions the past couple weeks. Like you, I'm curious as to what was received by the court that made them go ahead and schedule a hearing. It would be kind of funny if they received something by mail from one of Dolan's "experts" talking about being available around that time in December to give testimony. And then the court was like, "Uh...wait a sec, this matter was already dropped by the petitioner and signed off on by Grillo." That "correspondence" the court received on the 14th would/could possibly answer a lot of questions here. It makes me want to email the court again and see if they can elaborate as to why this scheduling and immediate drop occurred, but I doubt if they could legally give me any further details than what was already provided in the first email.


It could be as simple as what letter they opened first. They pretty much automatically schedule the hearing, then they open the next piece of mail and find the withdrawal.
 
  • #799
It could be as simple as what letter they opened first. They pretty much automatically schedule the hearing, then they open the next piece of mail and find the withdrawal.
I think I may have nailed it down a little closer, and it's somewhat like you said. Looking at the court records again today, apparently another hearing has been scheduled again for that very same day, except this time it's in Division 14, the tentative rulings court. So it's been moved out of Division 31, Grillo's court room. So, perhaps the court has gone ahead and issued a tentative ruling due to Dolan withdrawing his initial petition and subsequent dropping of his request for continuance. A tentative ruling has been made, and now the court is just waiting to see if Dolan presents any further motions or petitions in regards to the matter up to and including the day of that hearing.

Does that sound plausible?
 
  • #800

See also, potato clock and lemon battery (as I've posted previously), lol! The history in that article is interesting, though. Lime because it would show up best in pictures, lol! Here I was, pondering if the lime Jell-O was more acidic than the strawberry or something!

But seriously, this is why a completely isoelectric EEG in all channels is not part of the brain death criteria.

But then, a reasonable person would think that experts like Elena Labkovsky, Alan Shewmon, and Calixto Machado would know that. But I don't think this is at all about science or medicine. It's about trying to exploit a couple of isolated pieces of pseudo-medical/ pseudo-scientific information to try their darndest to achieve an end goal of money. IMO.
 
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