James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[OpenMind4U]

I don't think legalities came into the decision one iota, it was their own shame and need for denial that would have spurred them on. snip

Perfect!!! Thank you!

 

[Chrishope]

OK I think we both inherently disagree on the conclusion of the staging - and that's fine! I still feel, placed in that situation, an educated person wouldn't know the precise age of culpability. It differs from state to state and country to country. Secondly, she looked in the dictionary in the very early hours of the morning BEFORE she could speak to the pediatrician/lawyer/whomever. Furthermore, I had no idea that patient confidentiality extended to cases involving murder. Priests, yep I know they are bound but I has presumed that medical professionals became accomplices if they withheld substantive information in an investigation. Why did I presume that? From all those hospital dramas where the A&E departments are always duty bound to call the police. I reckon others may have the same impression.

You are conflating duty to report with Dr.-Patient privilege.
There is a duty to report some things, such as gun shot wounds, evidence of sexual abuse, evidence of domestic violence. But that does not extend to giving over patient files just because the police ask for them. It is the patient who has the privilege - i.e. the patient can say yes or no. The Dr. can't say yes w/o a court order.

I wasn't suggesting that any educated person knows the age of culpability in their state. I was suggesting an educated person, and even most uneducated people for that matter, know there is a juvenile justice system for kids. Even if they didn't know Burke couldn't be charged with any crime (and why wouldn't they call their lawyer and find out? JR is the kind of guy who can get a lawyer out of bed at 2am) they had to know BR couldn't be charged as an adult. Even if BR had been 10 at the time, and therefore chargeable, it's not as if BR was facing life in prison.

Lastly, the comments on lawyers advising on how to obstruct justice don't always hold true. Here's a personal experience that might illustrate the point:

I was once told by a High Court judge, alongside his son and just at the age we had both got our driving licenses yet were obviously still operating under the foolish excesses of youth, of the sacrosanct procedure to be followed to the letter should we be involved in an accident having been over the drink drive limit. He stated simply and unequivocably – get out of the car, leave the scene and do not return. Go to ground for 24 hours. It doesn’t matter how or where.

Being so young we didn’t question his inviolate authority. It wasn’t until years later that I pressed him upon the underlying reason for his advice. He judicially stated, “if you leave the scene you buy yourself time. The prosecution has to prove you were inebriated. It doesn’t matter if the car was littered with empty spirit bottles, if you are off the scene by the time you return 24 hours later any breath test will not detect alcohol in your system.”

So far, so logical. But how on earth can you justify disappearing for 24 hours?

Here was the genius.

“You knocked your head on the steering wheel or your head was whipped forward during the impact. You were disorientated and had no idea where you were. You had concussion. No one can ever prove different.”

Exceptional! From the lips of a man who has to impartially rule in all manner of exculpatory circumstances daily. For a more current example of lawyers deliberately and serially obstructing justice on behalf of a client, watch the ongoing Leveson Inquiry in the UK and see how many of Murdoch's legal teams have had, so far, had to apologise in open court for 'oversights'.[/quote]

That's fine, but we're talking murder.

 

[txsvicki]

(BBM)
I think you pretty much nailed it as far as what the mark on the neck was, mw mm. My problem is that I have to understand why, and I don't have the medical background to give me the answers. To understand it, I have to start at the beginning and learn even the basics. That's what I did with the large mark on JonBenet's neck. I don't start many threads, but I wanted to share with everyone what I found.

I want to do the same thing with the skull fractures and the timing between that and the strangulation. I really find the minimum 45-minutes hard to grasp when others have said the amount of swelling and bleeding meant it had to be a short time.

Here's the info on the "CTE":
The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion” - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
.

I was reading about the brain swelling and there were a couple of areas that had flattened. The sulci and gyri. I may not have spelled correctly but it's in the autopsy report. There was also bleeding in more than one area and that takes awhile. I'd like to know if they really could have thought her to be dead and just can't believe that theory. Surely there would have been faint breathing and maybe even clenched fists or spasms.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was reading about the brain swelling and there were a couple of areas that had flattened. The sulci and gyri. I may not have spelled correctly but it's in the autopsy report. There was also bleeding in more than one area and that takes awhile. I'd like to know if they really could have thought her to be dead and just can't believe that theory. Surely there would have been faint breathing and maybe even clenched fists or spasms.

There was a period of an hour and a half between the blow and the strangulation.

The BDI theory assumes that the Ramseys discovered the dying body of Jonbenet and decided to finish her off instead of calling 911.

I personally would be unable to "finish off" a dog hit by a car, let alone my own daughter.

 

[otg]

I was reading about the brain swelling and there were a couple of areas that had flattened. The sulci and gyri. I may not have spelled correctly but it's in the autopsy report. There was also bleeding in more than one area and that takes awhile. I'd like to know if they really could have thought her to be dead and just can't believe that theory. Surely there would have been faint breathing and maybe even clenched fists or spasms.

From what I understand so far, txvicki, even if she was unconscious (which she most likely was), the injury to the brain would also be causing nausea and vomiting, and even seizures/convulsions. Were that the case, I don't know how someone could mistake her for already dead. And I've always had a problem with the idea of "finishing her off". I won't completely close my mind to the possibility, but I would have to give more weight to some other explanation before I could accept that. That's one reason I find the new info on the long time between head blow and strangulation so hard to get behind until I know more.
.

 

[UKGuy]

There was a period of an hour and a half between the blow and the strangulation.

The BDI theory assumes that the Ramseys discovered the dying body of Jonbenet and decided to finish her off instead of calling 911.

I personally would be unable to "finish off" a dog hit by a car, let alone my own daughter.

The BDI theory assumes that the Ramseys discovered the dying body of Jonbenet and decided to finish her off instead of calling 911.

Its assumed in all RDI theories, simply because the R's never requested medical assistance for JonBenet.

I personally would be unable to "finish off" a dog hit by a car, let alone my own daughter.

I was recently faced with such a situation, e.g. a dying animal, with no chance of survival, it was coughing up blood, and having spasms.

I was far too squeamish and indecisive, someone else dispatched the poor animal. It was the right decision, but shocking to observe!


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Its assumed in all RDI theories, simply because the R's never requested medical assistance for JonBenet.


I was recently faced with such a situation, e.g. a dying animal, with no chance of survival, it was coughing up blood, and having spasms.

I was far too squeamish and indecisive, someone else dispatched the poor animal. It was the right decision, but shocking to observe!


.

Precisely.

We already have the facts laid out for us.

PR and JR were CLEARLY psychopaths who behaved in an unnatural, callous, planning, inexplicable way...yet still people wish to blame a 9 year old boy...

Wild horses would not have dragged JBR into a cold, dark basement to be hurt again by her brother.

:moo:

 

[UKGuy]

From what I understand so far, txvicki, even if she was unconscious (which she most likely was), the injury to the brain would also be causing nausea and vomiting, and even seizures/convulsions. Were that the case, I don't know how someone could mistake her for already dead. And I've always had a problem with the idea of "finishing her off". I won't completely close my mind to the possibility, but I would have to give more weight to some other explanation before I could accept that. That's one reason I find the new info on the long time between head blow and strangulation so hard to get behind until I know more.
.

otg,
I've always assumed there was a delay. Due to the sequential nature of her injuries.

I assume Patsy applied the ligature, and the addition of the piece of paintbrush handle is staging, since its not required to do the job.

JonBenet may have been having seizures, there was fluid being emitted from her nose, and possibly from her ears? These are the classic signs of a serious head injury.

So I agree with you. The R's had to know JonBenet was still alive. Anyway as a parent you would want to know either way.

Does Kolar go into any detail regarding the trauma on JonBenet's neck? I wonder if the head bash was intended staging gone wrong? With the garrote leaving you in no doubt.


.

 

[BOESP]

I don't think legalities came into the decision one iota, it was their own shame and need for denial that would have spurred them on.<snip>

I totally agree with the bold part above but I think legalities played a significant part too. Together, I call it "CYA."

If Burke did it, how does John Ramsey's new book fit into the plan (other than money...or maybe money is the only reason????)?

If either Patsy, John or both did it I can see JR's reasoning in writing this second (and the first) book.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Precisely.

We already have the facts laid out for us.

PR and JR were CLEARLY psychopaths who behaved in an unnatural, callous, planning, inexplicable way...yet still people wish to blame a 9 year old boy...

Wild horses would not have dragged JBR into a cold, dark basement to be hurt again by her brother.

:moo:

On August 2, Mr. Kolar has interviewed by Peter Boyles. During this interview, he've been asked many times what he think happened? And everytime - he declained to answer...until the end of the interview...at which time he said that in his opinion the head blow happens in dining room or in kitchen. And after that, JBR was taken to the basement (I'm assuming for the 'staging'). He never named the NAMES. But I found this small piece of info very interesting: head blow in kitchen or dining room. Hmmm...Places which have nothing to do with toys...but food.

 

[txsvicki]

Is there any mention of tissue testing or when he thinks the cheek and lower back injuies happened? If they had signs of the body repairing then she would have either been further attacked in the basement or the train tracks used to try and get a response to pain. Why an adult would use a train track is crazy though and leads back to a kid in the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

On August 2, Mr. Kolar has interviewed by Peter Boyles. During this interview, he've been asked many times what he think happened? And everytime - he declained to answer...until the end of the interview...at which time he said that in his opinion the head blow happens in dining room or in kitchen. And after that, JBR was taken to the basement (I'm assuming for the 'staging'). He never named the NAMES. But I found this small piece of info very interesting: head blow in kitchen or dining room. Hmmm...Places which have nothing to do with toys...but food.

OpenMind4U,
Whacking JonBenet in the kitchen or dining room, with JonBenet then being relocated to the basement, does not make sense.

There is blood on a pillow that was on JonBenet's bed. so she was in there at some point?

It sounds to me as if Kolar was simply speculating, e.g. that the last known location of JonBenet might have been when she was snacking the pineapple?
And of course the implied assumption that the last person to see JonBenet alive is a prime suspect?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Is there any mention of tissue testing or when he thinks the cheek and lower back injuies happened? If they had signs of the body repairing then she would have either been further attacked in the basement or the train tracks used to try and get a response to pain. Why an adult would use a train track is crazy though and leads back to a kid in the basement.

Good point IF:
- the cheek and lower back abrasions caused by the toy train track not some other non-child means. (Ramsey basement was a mass with so many items which could possibly used to make these abrasions);
- these abrasions were fresh not inflicted earlier (we need to see pictures of JBR from FW party).

If I'm not mistaken, these abrasions were on JBR right side (on her right cheek and torso). Just wondering, she got bicycle as X-mas present. Which parts of bicycle could cause such injuries if child fall ON it?

 

[MizStery]

Only one person had the organizational skills,confidence,ability to delegate (coach) PR in what to do and execute total control over this nightmare situation...... and that was JR. To maintain the mental discipline for over an hour and a half....likely watching as JB was having convulsions ....making plans .....bathing,changing clothes,staging the scene,communicating the details of the ransom note... constructing an alibi,making calls...only JR had the Machiavelli thinking required to do this seemingly impossible task.

Whatever the origin of JB vaginal injuries ...no adult ,despite many suspicious episodes of vaginitis attempted to protect JB. In additional BR had serious issues..all of which adversely affected JB. As I read through all the posts (I'm also waiting for James Kolar's book)it sound's like the name of the Denver Mansion should have been 'the house of horrors'. MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Is there any mention of tissue testing or when he thinks the cheek and lower back injuies happened? If they had signs of the body repairing then she would have either been further attacked in the basement or the train tracks used to try and get a response to pain. Why an adult would use a train track is crazy though and leads back to a kid in the basement.

Are we sure the injuries were caused by the track, or are we still not past the stun gun?

The Ramseys owned a stun gun....in a house so "safe" they didn't lock their doors or windows.

:banghead:

 

[txsvicki]

Kolar proved the train track to me since it perfectly fit the wound.
.it was also nearby.

 

[azwriter]

IMO, to keep the dirty secrets under the cover!!!!! JBR murder is ALL about molestation!!!!....it starts with acute sexual assult and finished with hiding the chronic sexual assult. JMO.

Saphire Steel's question is excellent and one we have all tossed around. OpenMind, your answer is so on point.

I really doubt the parents knew or understood that their son could not be prosecuted for murder because of his age when they initially discovered JonBenet had been injured or near death. This is something they found out later in the evening, perhaps from an attorney in their employ.

However, I do believe they were well-aware of Burke's attemps to molest his little sister. I think it was an ongoing problem; one Patsy had caught Burke in the act of and warned him to never do it again. But, he continued and when his sister yelled out in pain that night, he attempted to quiet her so he would not be in trouble for what he was told not to do again.

IMO, Patsy would press John to see that they could not allow the public to know about the sexual activities between the two children. They were public people with arrogrance and pride. They had a standing in the community perhaps even in the country with Patsy background as a Miss America contestant, who had won the talent portion of her pageant.

So, they are faced with this problem: their daughter they believed was near death and surrounding the accident was sexual misbehavior by their son. When put side by side, I can see them covering the entire event. Perhaps after the staging and phony ransom letter they did discover that Burke would not be charged because of his age and it was an accident. But still they went ahead with the staging and hiding the accident mainly to not allow the world to know the circumstances surrounding the entire encounter between brother and little sister.

I'm still struggling with the strangling with the cord (I refuse to call it a garrott) and how it came about. I do think the cord was part of the orginal situation between the two children but I've got to think long and hard about how it all came about.

JMO

 

[midwest mama]

There was a period of an hour and a half between the blow and the strangulation.

The BDI theory assumes that the Ramseys discovered the dying body of Jonbenet and decided to finish her off instead of calling 911.

I personally would be unable to "finish off" a dog hit by a car, let alone my own daughter.

SS - Reading through some of your other posts, it's evident that your bravery and tenacity have been earned at the expense of tremendous harm causing much suffering on your part. Your personal reconciliation of that type of heinous treatment will require strength, which, as it continues to grow, may take you through life experiences you never dreamed possible. Brava, and never lose faith you shall overcome and be the better for it.

My BDI theory includes the action of Burke also doing the strangulation, but it is strictly my opinion, and I arrived at it after considering several reasons why Burke may have waited so long after bashing her before finally choking her. I think JR and PR may not have found JB until she was already dead, and the cover-up then ensued.

I'm with ya on not being able to imagine finishing off anything, except a pesky fly or a sneaky spider! :highfive:

 

[KoldKase]

I agree. KK is one smart cookie and I always stop and read her posts.

Oh, thank you and others who view my bombastic hissy fits so kindly. :blush:

I wish I was actually that smart, though. When you put into perspective that it's taken me 15+ years to put this 60,000 page Ramsey puzzle together, turns out I feel quite stupid and gullible sometimes.

You know; "I've been duped." :maddening:

 

[Intriguing]

SS - Reading through some of your other posts, it's evident that your bravery and tenacity have been earned at the expense of tremendous harm causing much suffering on your part. Your personal reconciliation of that type of heinous treatment will require strength, which, as it continues to grow, may take you through life experiences you never dreamed possible. Brava, and never lose faith you shall overcome and be the better for it.

My BDI theory includes the action of Burke also doing the strangulation, but it is strictly my opinion, and I arrived at it after considering several reasons why Burke may have waited so long after bashing her before finally choking her. I think JR and PR may not have found JB until she was already dead, and the cover-up then ensued.

I'm with ya on not being able to imagine finishing off anything, except a pesky fly or a sneaky spider! :highfive:

Yep that's the direction I've gone in now. The finishing off thing seems implausible. As I don't know the fine details of the ligature and depth of wounds on the neck etc, could someone briefly explain whether it was possible for Burke to have the strength to make those marks? 'Oops, not dead yet!'

I am sure he had the strength to inflict a near-terminal head bash wit the flashlight. I'm also becoming more convinced that there was hardly any staging down that morning, save the wiping down, the maternal element of wrapping her in a blanket and temporarily hiding the body.

See, if there had been so much clinical staging and analysis by the Ramseys (save the Ransom note), THEN the sexual abuse they were deliberately covering up with MORE sexual abuse would SURELY have been placed within the ransom note? Not just the threat of beheading JonBenet but interfering with her too. This doesn't appear...