James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation

[Flossie JMO]

Lionel Tate was only 12 when he stomped a little girl to death.
There was a 9 year old in San Diego who chased down a 6 year old girl and raped her on a neighbor's lawn. He'd been sexually harassing girls for 3 years before the rape.
I was at Dinsneyland when a 6 year old pushed a friend in the pool, purposely Dreaming him, to "see what it feels like".
There was a 13 year old kid somewhere on the east coast who murdered an entire family. When he was being questioned his mother was crying, his dad vomitting in the corner of the room, he was calmly talking about killing two little girls and their mother for no apparent reason.

The reality that children kill isn't what bothers me. It's everything else. When confronted, these kids admitted their crime and generally didn't see a problem with it. Most if them have little to no remorse. And if they do have remorse they admit their crime eventually....and the adults around them encourage it because it's always better to face it. Hiding it brings bigger, more anti social problems down the line.
We know what Shawn Hornbeck did, too.

Jmo, so very wrong to bring up Shawn.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm talking specifically about about the theory a stranger who is hiding in their house molested her. Not an acquaintance or friend who visits or drops by and decides to molest her.

If it was someone she knew and she had been molested by them before, And they were close to her in some capacity, leaving her room with them may not be strange to her. We have no idea what could have been said..

Mommy wants you down stairs..

Wake up sleepy head, It is time for our trip.....

I have something special for you down stairs..

She is 6! It is not that hard to lure her.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Venom, I think some posters may have forgotten that enough evidence for a true bill of "child abuse resulting in death" was presented in a court of law. It is, imo, totally unreasonable and illogical to dismiss those findings as irrelevant.

It was presented to a grand jury and all their indictment means is that they think there is enough to try that person for a particular crime. Not that they are guilty. So it in itself means not much.. Only that they thought there was enough to take it to court. However we see cases all the time brought to court that do not result in convictions when tried against the standard of the law.

 

[Ausgirl]

Thanks for stating why you think this is not RDI, and for who you think might have done this.

Here's something to think about: When a crime is staged, it's a pretty well known and accepted fact that covering the body is something only some one close to the victim does. It's "undoing" and showing remorse, also an attempt to "comfort" the victim so to speak, when in reality it's to comfort the killer.

The fact that JB was cleaned, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket certainly points towards a family member that loved and cared for her. How do you reconcile this behavior with an intruder?

I'm sorry - but I am not sure where you got the statistics for the first part in bold from. In any case, it's quite incorrect.

There have been a vast number of incidences where stranger murders have had a child covered or posed in a manner suggesting shame or remorse.

I really don't have the time this morning to go digging them all up for you, perhaps I'll make a post when I do, with a comprehensive list. Or you could use google to hunt some up, meantime.

Shame and remorse are, strangely enough, quite common in these situations. Perhaps it's how they continue living with themselves.

eta: I ought to note - by 'stranger' here, I include non-family members known to the child in some capacity and stalkers, as well as total strangers.

 

[Ausgirl]

What about the prior sexual assault? Are you saying JB was assaulted by a stranger in her house and said nothing to her parents?

No, I'm not saying that. There are too many variables, too many possible scenarios, for me to conjecture with any confidence about who caused the evidence of prior sexual abuse. In fact, I actually need to review what is known about the actual evidence there, before I can even comment on that. But I will, so raincheck on that.

I find a stranger in the attic successfully assaulting her in the home with no mention extremely unlikely.

Also, this stranger in the walls or attic would have had to scour his existence from the house after killing JB. Again...just don't see it.

<modsnip> Please read my post again.

 

[Ausgirl]

Venom, I think some posters may have forgotten that enough evidence for a true bill of "child abuse resulting in death" was presented in a court of law. It is, imo, totally unreasonable and illogical to dismiss those findings as irrelevant.

The same sort of bill (not abuse, but proof of murder) was presented in the Azaria Chamberlain case (to name one off the top of my head) and the mother, unlike PR, was consequently arrested and jailed.

She was later completely exonerated.

 

[redheadedgal]

I'm sorry - but I am not sure where you got the statistics for the first part in bold from. In any case, it's quite incorrect.

actually, nom is correct... plenty of research out there to support her assertion too... for example, john douglas, FBI profiler:

When parents kill, there&#8217;s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child...

and from NCMEC:

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports that women are likely to dispose of their children's bodies in ways suggestive of returning them to the womb &#8212; swaddled in blankets, wrapped in plastic, submerged in water

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=187550&postcount=3"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - "Parents who kill their kids..."[/ame]

 

[Ausgirl]

red, I was in no way claiming there wasn't - I was refuting the statement that the other -never- happens.

While I'm floating around in this section of the forums, I feel it necessary to say this.. I apologise if it's a bit emotional or whatever, but it's a little close to home. Necessary, imo, anyway:

There's a lot of conjecture as to what a 6 YO would and would not say regarding sexual abuse.

As a survivor of long-term and multiple perpetrator sexual abuse (among other kinds) I know for a FACT that the most heinous things can happen to a child, especially a very young child, and they won't say 'boo'.

Especially a child who is used to 'doing as they are told'. In my case, I did as told mainly out of fear of being bashed, and because I'd learned to be passive that way. In JonBenet's case, it could have been her pageant involvement, having to do things quickly and just as she was told. Just conjecture. But I can see the possibility.

At not much older than JB's age, I am certain that myself and some other children were used in production of child . It is a hard to thing to think about, let alone say out loud, so bear with me a moment.

I never said a word, to anyone, about that- or any of the ongoing years of abuse. Not a word. There are many reasons I have thought about in my adult life as to why that was, and I don't feel able to talk about those a lot here, right now.

But trust me. Children who have been sexually abused, especially young children, abused by a family member OR a stranger, OR anybody in between OR (in my case) all of the above, do NOT always speak up about it.

And that silence, common as it is, is what child molesters bank on when they are molesting children. For what it's worth, I rarely heard "threats" 'if you tell, such and such will happen to you/your mommy/etc'. It was assumed and rightly so that I would remain silent.

There's a terrifying thought for you, sorry.

But the presumption that JB 'would have' spoken up in whatever abuse scenario is being presented at the time quite upsets me, sometimes.

 

[Nom de plume]

red, I was in no way claiming there wasn't - I was refuting the statement that the other -never- happens.

While I'm floating around in this section of the forums, I feel it necessary to say this.. I apologise if it's a bit emotional or whatever, but it's a little close to home. Necessary, imo, anyway:

There's a lot of conjecture as to what a 6 YO would and would not say regarding sexual abuse.

As a survivor of long-term and multiple perpetrator sexual abuse (among other kinds) I know for a FACT that the most heinous things can happen to a child, especially a very young child, and they won't say 'boo'.

Especially a child who is used to 'doing as they are told'. In my case, I did as told mainly out of fear of being bashed, and because I'd learned to be passive that way. In JonBenet's case, it could have been her pageant involvement, having to do things quickly and just as she was told. Just conjecture. But I can see the possibility.

At not much older than JB's age, I am certain that myself and some other children were used in production of child . It is a hard to thing to think about, let alone say out loud, so bear with me a moment.

I never said a word, to anyone, about that- or any of the ongoing years of abuse. Not a word. There are many reasons I have thought about in my adult life as to why that was, and I don't feel able to talk about those a lot here, right now.

But trust me. Children who have been sexually abused, especially young children, abused by a family member OR a stranger, OR anybody in between OR (in my case) all of the above, do NOT always speak up about it.

And that silence, common as it is, is what child molesters bank on when they are molesting children. For what it's worth, I rarely heard "threats" 'if you tell, such and such will happen to you/your mommy/etc'. It was assumed and rightly so that I would remain silent.

There's a terrifying thought for you, sorry.

But the presumption that JB 'would have' spoken up in whatever abuse scenario is being presented at the time quite upsets me, sometimes.

I must have completely missed where someone said the JB would have told. I believe that most abuse victims stay silent, out of fear and shame.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm sorry - but I am not sure where you got the statistics for the first part in bold from. In any case, it's quite incorrect.

There have been a vast number of incidences where stranger murders have had a child covered or posed in a manner suggesting shame or remorse.

I really don't have the time this morning to go digging them all up for you, perhaps I'll make a post when I do, with a comprehensive list. Or you could use google to hunt some up, meantime.

Shame and remorse are, strangely enough, quite common in these situations. Perhaps it's how they continue living with themselves.

eta: I ought to note - by 'stranger' here, I include non-family members known to the child in some capacity and stalkers, as well as total strangers.

Yes, Jaqueline Dowaliby was found wrapped in her blanket from her bed but left out by a dumpster.

We can never know what a killer is thinking or their motivation until they tell us. Assuming facts not in evidence will not help solve the case.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

actually, nom is correct... plenty of research out there to support her assertion too... for example, john douglas, FBI profiler:




and from NCMEC:



Forums For Justice - View Single Post - "Parents who kill their kids..."

Again it does not matter. It just takes one guy who does this that is not related.. A profile is not a contract of what the guy or perpetrator will be.. IT is only what is possible, and maybe probable but it is not definite.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

red, I was in no way claiming there wasn't - I was refuting the statement that the other -never- happens.

While I'm floating around in this section of the forums, I feel it necessary to say this.. I apologise if it's a bit emotional or whatever, but it's a little close to home. Necessary, imo, anyway:

There's a lot of conjecture as to what a 6 YO would and would not say regarding sexual abuse.

As a survivor of long-term and multiple perpetrator sexual abuse (among other kinds) I know for a FACT that the most heinous things can happen to a child, especially a very young child, and they won't say 'boo'.

Especially a child who is used to 'doing as they are told'. In my case, I did as told mainly out of fear of being bashed, and because I'd learned to be passive that way. In JonBenet's case, it could have been her pageant involvement, having to do things quickly and just as she was told. Just conjecture. But I can see the possibility.

At not much older than JB's age, I am certain that myself and some other children were used in production of child . It is a hard to thing to think about, let alone say out loud, so bear with me a moment.

I never said a word, to anyone, about that- or any of the ongoing years of abuse. Not a word. There are many reasons I have thought about in my adult life as to why that was, and I don't feel able to talk about those a lot here, right now.

But trust me. Children who have been sexually abused, especially young children, abused by a family member OR a stranger, OR anybody in between OR (in my case) all of the above, do NOT always speak up about it.

And that silence, common as it is, is what child molesters bank on when they are molesting children. For what it's worth, I rarely heard "threats" 'if you tell, such and such will happen to you/your mommy/etc'. It was assumed and rightly so that I would remain silent.

There's a terrifying thought for you, sorry.

But the presumption that JB 'would have' spoken up in whatever abuse scenario is being presented at the time quite upsets me, sometimes.

Im so sorry for what you had to endure. Knowing people and talking to people who have been through SA especially as a child not one of them told. NONE.

Kids don't tell. There is usually a grooming and a threat and shame and it is not something they want to tell and make trouble for people. They tend to take responsibility for it somehow. I have seen that over and over.

WE have no idea if JB was assaulted prior to this night or how long if she was, so it would be near impossible to exclude outsiders. People she knew and trusted in some capacity. Or someone completely different. children can have multiple abusers.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I must have completely missed where someone said the JB would have told. I believe that most abuse victims stay silent, out of fear and shame.

What about the prior sexual assault? Are you saying JB was assaulted by a stranger in her house and said nothing to her parents?
I find a stranger in the attic successfully assaulting her in the home with no mention extremely unlikely.

Also, this stranger in the walls or attic would have had to scour his existence from the house after killing JB. Again...just don't see it.

IT seems that this is a question that JB would not have told someone. This is what we were responding to.

 

[Ausgirl]

I must have completely missed where someone said the JB would have told. I believe that most abuse victims stay silent, out of fear and shame.

I wasn't responding to a specific post here - just that I do see this time to time in the Ramsey forums and elsewhere, and it never fails to irk me. So I felt moved to post that .. somewhere. Here was as good as anywhere.

"But surely she would have told someone if it was XYZ" whatever side of it they're arguing.

 

[BOESP]

The same sort of bill (not abuse, but proof of murder) was presented in the Azaria Chamberlain case (to name one off the top of my head) and the mother, unlike PR, was consequently arrested and jailed.

She was later completely exonerated.

And how does that outcome affect whether or not one or both Ramseys would have been found not guilty if the case had gone to trial?

 

[Augustgurl]

Right....the *ransom note* (kidnapping) is the big differentiator!

So, how many times is a child found brutally murdered within their own home and a ransom note is also discovered?

Never happens....

A THREE PAGE ransom note mind you. The novel of ransom notes. Asking for a weird amount trying to suggest a connection to fathers workplace. And a note with " movie quotes" PR admits that she did the writing on a practice page! She claimed it was a practice invitation! I just read that today and that sealed the deal for me. Totally sealed the deal. Grand jurors also felt the deal was sealed, only problem was folks in " higher" places who needed JR 's power, influence and money money money CHOSE not to agree. If this had been a poor family from the wrong side of the tracks, they'd be in jail currently serving time. As to possible BR did it and folks who think that's ludicrous for the parents to stage as they did. Perhaps they decided to not lose a second child that night AND lose face and reputation which it's real apparent was of great value to them. Do you really think they would call the police and say " um yeah, we just found our daughter dead and my 9 yr old son had her in the basement and it appears she was sexually assaulted too. Can you send someone to take him away please? ".
One last thing from me, has anyone ever seen the Ramsey phone records from that night? I would bet a lot on the fact there was a late late night or early morning call to an attorney or an attorney friend. And what on earth would you need attorneys to tell you to NOT cooperate with LE to find the slaughterer of your child? You couldn't put a harness on me to break down LE doors and keep my face ALL OVER the media begging for help to find the SOB.
Ok, I'm done now. :twocents::rockon:

 

[Augustgurl]

If you think so than that is good for you.

My theory is that someone broke in and molested and killed this little girl. I don't see anything that points me toward the family at this point. Nothing. All the evidence there that people use to point to the family is supposed to be there and means nothing.

Fingerprints, dna, fibers, All belong in the house and on the persons and objects. So they don't point to anyone in the family. It just proves who lives there.

It appears you don't put ANY merit in circumstantial evidence. These are the jurors that scare me because very very rarely is a crime videotaped where we can say " ah ha! You did it". If one night you look out across your pristine snow covered yard and the next morning you wake up and see footprints in the snow, is it ok to conclude that someone was in your yard the previous night? Or do you say , no I didn't see anyone so I can't say for CERTAIN they were there. There is NO videotape of this crime. None of us can rule out anyone including ALL three people who were in the house that night including an almost 10 yr old boy. Why did the Ramsey's feel a need to spirt BR away immediately and not let police on scene ask him even a relatively benign question like " hi son, can you tell us if you heard anything last night?" Boom. End of questioning let FW whisk him away. I'll tell ya, as traumatic as that day was, I would want my other child to help in ANY way possible with investigation. They're trained in this and parents could hold his hand and be present. Psychologically it might help him to feel he's helping too instead of being shut out. But , nuh, uh. They clam EVERYONE up. I'm sorry but that is again, circumstantial piece that is off compared to Mark Klass and Jessica Lunsfords dads who gave poly's and complete access to info IMMEDIATELY out of frantic desperation to find their child's kidnapper/ murdrer.
JMOO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It appears you don't put ANY merit in circumstantial evidence. These are the jurors that scare me because very very rarely is a crime videotaped where we can say " ah ha! You did it". If one night you look out across your pristine snow covered yard and the next morning you wake up and see footprints in the snow, is it ok to conclude that someone was in your yard the previous night? Or do you say , no I didn't see anyone so I can't say for CERTAIN they were there. There is NO videotape of this crime. None of us can rule out anyone including ALL three people who were in the house that night including an almost 10 yr old boy. Why did the Ramsey's feel a need to spirt BR away immediately and not let police on scene ask him even a relatively benign question like " hi son, can you tell us if you heard anything last night?" Boom. End of questioning let FW whisk him away. I'll tell ya, as traumatic as that day was, I would want my other child to help in ANY way possible with investigation. They're trained in this and parents could hold his hand and be present. Psychologically it might help him to feel he's helping too instead of being shut out. But , nuh, uh. They clam EVERYONE up. I'm sorry but that is again, circumstantial piece that is off compared to Mark Klass and Jessica Lunsfords dads who gave poly's and complete access to info IMMEDIATELY out of frantic desperation to find their child's kidnapper/ murdrer.
JMOO

There is no way if one of my children was missing, I would want the other one around at all. I would want them somewhere safe. You have to be able to focus on one child at a time..
I have not issue with circumstantial evidence but there needs to be some real evidence with it. There has to be proof that leads you to truth through that evidence.
Just because someone else did something, That had no bearing on THIS case. IT was suggested they get a lawyer. It is their right. They let the lawyers handle it and did what they said. That is how it works. That means nothing about guilt. Nothing about what they could have done. They had an atty and they followed his advice. Simple as that.

If my dd had just been murdered, I would be of no help to anyone. I know what it feels like to have a child go missing and the shut down that happens and I can not even let myself go to what if..... People have big ideas about what they would do, But you just have no idea. None until you are there.

I understand if people want to pull fibers and look at them differently than I do. That is at least left to interpretation.. But people getting lawyers is their right. No one should be thought guilty because of just that.

 

[Venom]

It appears you don't put ANY merit in circumstantial evidence. These are the jurors that scare me because very very rarely is a crime videotaped where we can say " ah ha! You did it". If one night you look out across your pristine snow covered yard and the next morning you wake up and see footprints in the snow, is it ok to conclude that someone was in your yard the previous night? Or do you say , no I didn't see anyone so I can't say for CERTAIN they were there. There is NO videotape of this crime. None of us can rule out anyone including ALL three people who were in the house that night including an almost 10 yr old boy. Why did the Ramsey's feel a need to spirt BR away immediately and not let police on scene ask him even a relatively benign question like " hi son, can you tell us if you heard anything last night?" Boom. End of questioning let FW whisk him away. I'll tell ya, as traumatic as that day was, I would want my other child to help in ANY way possible with investigation. They're trained in this and parents could hold his hand and be present. Psychologically it might help him to feel he's helping too instead of being shut out. But , nuh, uh. They clam EVERYONE up. I'm sorry but that is again, circumstantial piece that is off compared to Mark Klass and Jessica Lunsfords dads who gave poly's and complete access to info IMMEDIATELY out of frantic desperation to find their child's kidnapper/ murdrer.
JMOO

Welcome to the discussion. :seeya:

 

[BBB167893]

BBM, that is a big issue. If they had the ability to treat her like that the other option of taking and getting rid of her would have been an easier option and fit more with the kidnapping. To say they were staging a kidnapping and then left the body there and that was their cover up is ludicrous. They are not dumb people. They know then that the police are going to find the body in their house.

It just makes no sense to me.

Even smart people make mistakes when they have no experience, Scarlett. No one is saying that they were stupid. But they had no real concept of how real criminals act.

Let me put it this way: you wouldn't ask your accountant to fix your plumbing, would you? Same thing here. You wouldn't ask two high-society people to become master criminals all at once.