Japan: 9.0 Earthquake-Tsunami-Nuclear Reactor Developments #3

[dsntslp]

Sorrel Sky,
Thank you, truly.

Well, circulating water leaves out my hydraulic cement idea too then.
I wondered if perhaps those rods only overheated when exposed to air why not fill and encase them all in hydraulic cement. That's a very, very expensive fix for sure. Hydraulic cement is what is used to repair pools and docks, in the parts underwater, because it is unaffected by water and still sets when properly applied. It has to be applied as a putty type consistency though and I am more than sure that idea will not work as hydraulic cement creates its own heat while it sets up. I was trying to think in terms of "quick setting" to plug cracks and highest and best use of water...so many variables, so many.

Prayers, many prayers.

 

[Reality Orlando]

Japanese Helicopters Dump Water Onto Troubled Nuclear Power Plant (Video at link)

Japanese military helicopters dumped water Thursday from huge buckets onto the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant's damaged reactors in a bid to raise hopes of easing the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

Three twin-rotor CH-47 Chinooks from the Japanese Self-Defense Forces were used in the operation. Two helicopters dumped seawater on the plant's damaged No. 3 reactor, while the other dropped seawater on the No. 4 reactor.

A nearly completed new power line could also restore electric cooling systems in the facility, its operator said Thursday.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Naoki Tsunoda said the new power line is almost complete. He did not specify when the project would be finished.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/16/japans-uncertain-following-radiation-level-panic/

 

[gitana1]

By the way, I just found out yesterday that my law partner's wife was actually in Tokyo during the quake! He told me she was stranded in Hawaii, or so I thought and didn't seem too concerned (he was in the middle of a huge trial at the time), but no, she was right in Tokyo! She flies for an airline and was due to fly out that night at 10:00 p.m. and then the quake hit. She said it was much different from the ones we have in California. More side to side. She was shopping in a supermarket with her co-workers when someone said, "earthquake!" She noticed signs moving. There was debate about what to do and she decided to hop the security gate thing and go outside. Once there, there was a loud boom and it really began shaking. She saw tall buildings on rollers just moving and one hit a more stationary building next to it making a huge gong like sound.
She said it was hard to stand upright. Then, the moment it stopped shaking, there was a huge cloud of smoke that went up on the street but it was from cigarettes! Everyone lit up at the same time on the street!
Afterward, she said it shook repeatedly, every ten minutes or so. They all walked, linked (to not get lost in the crowd) to the bus stop and eventually got back to their hotel. She was allowed to stay in her room that night (ninth floor) and at 2:30 in the morning, a huge aftershock woke her. She said the wallpaper bubbled up in places and drywall dusted down from the walls in a mist of powder. By this time, she's very freaked out (and she's not the type to get rattled). So, she began drinking and took something to help her relax. Eventually she passed out and didn't wake for the next huge aftershock which was at 4:30 in the morning, although she has a memory of the bed being shaken.
She was not able to get out until the next night. She was there for 40 hours total. Flights were delayed while they checked for runway damage. I couldn't believe it! My law partner kept trying to call the airline to find out where she was because there was no internet for awhile and he didn't know what hotel she was at - nothing. They refused to tell him anything, saying he could be anyone. Finally, all the flight attendants were able to use Skype to contact their loved ones. She's still very jumpy.

 

[Soulmagent]

Japanese Helicopters Dump Water Onto Troubled Nuclear Power Plant (Video at link)

Japanese military helicopters dumped water Thursday from huge buckets onto the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant's damaged reactors in a bid to raise hopes of easing the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

Three twin-rotor CH-47 Chinooks from the Japanese Self-Defense Forces were used in the operation. Two helicopters dumped seawater on the plant's damaged No. 3 reactor, while the other dropped seawater on the No. 4 reactor.

A nearly completed new power line could also restore electric cooling systems in the facility, its operator said Thursday.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Naoki Tsunoda said the new power line is almost complete. He did not specify when the project would be finished.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/16/japans-uncertain-following-radiation-level-panic/

Wow , Why did they do it after they asked the US to do it? Not complaining ,just wondering.

 

[dsntslp]

A professor (missed the name, will edit and add if they say or display again) on CNN saying it is inconceivable that any radiation would reach US soil.

 

[sorrell skye]

The spent fuel pools @ Fukushima may be more of a concern than an active nuclear reactor for two reasons:

1. There are more fuel rods in the spent fuel pool than there are in an active nuclear reactor.

2. The location of the spent fuel pool storage area - near the roof, protected by only the external containment wall (which photos have shown no longer exists).

For anyone interested in an extensive explanation of this, please watch this informative video provided by Rachel Maddow:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#42100927

 

[Peliman]

I'm not ruling out concrete yet but it would require setting up an entire concrete plant (fairly easy) either next to or in the compound. An extended pumper like in the picture and a caravan of concrete trucks feeding it from the concrete plant set-up next door. They could fill a reactor or two a day, maybe two pumper trucks.

 

[sherbetjello]

I haven't been here in a while, and I am really too tired to read this entire thread, but the news that is being discussed west coast, in schools (i am in one, that's why i am too tired), is that the weather pattern in Japan for the past three days shifted it all back onto Japan. Basically, their wind patterns made an actual "U" shape.

I mean, we will find out if there is anything in the air here pretty soon. There will be rain this weekend and if there it will make itself known.

Also, has half life been discussed yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay


I saw the "spread maps" and the math just doesn't make sense. Not sure where those even came from, and if even creditable.

 

[hollyblue]

The nuclear waste rods that are stored in Utah (was it?). Are they stored in water, I assume? Is it the water these rods need or just moisture to stay cool? I know they had to have a generator to pump water for the cooling system but what about the micro beads used in gels for potting soil? I wonder if those could be dumped in there already somewhat premoistened to take up volume and to possibly plug (somewhat) the crack in the one reactor? It seems that would work better than plain water in a cracked reactor? I wonder about the chemical make-up of those beads? It's the same stuff that is in disposable diapers? Inert? But inert when exposed to nuclear fuel rods?

I know, I know, long shot. But those beads have a cooling effect. They are used in neck coolers, a bandana type wrap worn on the neck by gardeners. 1 tsp expands greatly when exposed to water. I guess, the expansion might not be such a good thing (might be horrific, the unknown) unless they could properly guage it...

Short of that, my only other layman idea at this point is to concrete or enclose the whole mess somehow and keep it flooded until they have the knowledge to deal with it

Right now, I am glad I am not a nuclear physicist with the world staring at me... and waiting for answers. [/quote]

Politics will prevail....not so the scientist.

http://www.capitalcentury.com/1953.html

"Scientists are not delinquents," he said in one of his last interviews. "Our work has changed the conditions in which men live, but the use made of those changes is the problem of governments, not of scientists."

------J. Robert Oppenhiemer, Father of the A Bomb.

 

[dsntslp]

Do those rods 'have' to be in an upright position?

Would they still function properly and conduct energy as efficiently if stored on their side?

If so, I think they should lie them on their side in the future so they can build big, huge condoms to slide them into and fill with water for transport in the event of an emergency.

Did you laugh? I did. I apologize, but it is fuuny, the image...going down the road on the back of a flat bed truck, ha!

I was trying to figure out how to keep water on these rods and then move them, can you tell?

The thought was to 'wrap' the rods and fill with water. Only, I don't think any seal at the bottom of any huge recptacle' would stay tight enough to hold water.

OK! Stop laughing now! Nah, go ahead laugh, I am, we need it about now, lol!

 

[sorrell skye]

The uranium fuel rods must be cooled.

Covering them with concrete will not solve the problem.

Uranium emits a lot of heat. We are not talking about capping an undersea oil-gusher.

“A meltdown is when the uranium dioxide fuel melts. The melting temperature of uranium dioxide is 5,189 degrees Fahrenheit (2,865 degrees Celsius),” said Martin Bertadono, a nuclear engineer at Purdue University.

http://getstopic.com/what-is-a-nuclear-meltdown-livescience-com-17924.html

 

[sorrell skye]

Do those rods 'have' to be in an upright position?

Would they still function properly and conduct energy as efficiently if stored on their side?

If so, I think they should lie them on their side in the future so they can build big, huge condoms to slide them into and fill with water for transport in the event of an emergency.

Did you laugh? I did. I apologize, but it is fuuny, the image...going down the road on the back of a flat bed truck, ha!

I was trying to figure out how to keep water on these rods and then move them, can you tell?

The thought was to 'wrap' the rods and fill with water. Only, I don't think any seal at the bottom of any huge recptacle' would stay tight enough to hold water.

OK! Stop laughing now! Nah, go ahead laugh, I am, we need it about now, lol!

The rods cannot be moved until they have cooled enough to be transported.

 

[hollyblue]

I'm not ruling out concrete yet but it would require setting up an entire concrete plant (fairly easy) either next to or in the compound. An extended pumper like in the picture and a caravan of concrete trucks feeding it from the concrete plant set-up next door. They could fill a reactor or two a day, maybe two pumper trucks.

Thanks the whole problem tho, the rods heat to over 2000 degrees and destroy the concrete. The outer containment of the reactor is made of concrete (and steel, iirc), but if the rods melt the containment will be breeched. The "life" of a rod is estimated to be 20 years and has to be constantly cooled AND contained within circulating cooled water...until as mentioned above cooled to be stored "safely" somewhere else.

 

[dsntslp]

OK, I'll go study instead of brainstorming here and driving you guys nutz, lol.

Because now I am wondering why these things can not be cut down to a more manageable size and immersed in fiberglass pools for transport to a stable environment.

I know, I know, cutting creates heat...

Thanks for the info all!

Have a fantabulous day!

Peace and prayers,
dsn

ETA: Yeah, it would mean circulating the water in the pool...can we cool pool water like we heat it?

OK, am really done now for the night.

 

[sorrell skye]

Spent uranium fuel rods take YEARS to cool down.

They must be covered with constantly circulating water to cool them down over the course of 5-10 years.

 

[CarmelEyesD]

I agree, again, where are our leaders?

In a fallout shelter?

 

[Peliman]

The uranium fuel rods must be cooled.

Covering them with concrete will not solve the problem.

Uranium emits a lot of heat. We are not talking about capping an undersea oil-gusher.

“A meltdown is when the uranium dioxide fuel melts. The melting temperature of uranium dioxide is 5,189 degrees Fahrenheit (2,865 degrees Celsius),” said Martin Bertadono, a nuclear engineer at Purdue University.

http://getstopic.com/what-is-a-nuclear-meltdown-livescience-com-17924.html

Made me look up Chernobyl...

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/chernobyl/inf07.html

About 200-300 tonnes of water per hour was injected into the intact half of the reactor using the auxiliary feedwater pumps but this was stopped after half a day owing to the danger of it flowing into and flooding units 1 and 2. From the second to tenth day after the accident, some 5000 tonnes of boron, dolomite, sand, clay and lead were dropped on to the burning core by helicopter in an effort to extinguish the blaze and limit the release of radioactive particles

 

[Peliman]

Thanks the whole problem tho, the rods heat to over 2000 degrees and destroy the concrete. The outer containment of the reactor is made of concrete (and steel, iirc), but if the rods melt the containment will be breeched. The "life" of a rod is estimated to be 20 years and has to be constantly cooled AND contained within circulating cooled water...until as mentioned above cooled to be stored "safely" somewhere else.

My understanding is the containment core is encased in steel surrounded by concrete. In case of a meltdown the steel containment should hold but if the heat melts steel it will run into the concrete encasement making it unlikely to rupture outside the reactor vessel. I'm under the impression the spent fuel rods are held outside the protection of the vessel.

 

[hollyblue]

OK, I'll go study instead of brainstorming here and driving you guys nutz, lol.

Because now I am wondering why these things can not be cut down to a more manageable size and immersed in fiberglass pools for transport to a stable environment.

I know, I know, cutting creates heat...

Thanks for the info all!

Have a fantabulous day!

Peace and prayers,
dsn

ETA: Yeah, it would mean circulating the water in the pool...can we cool pool water like we heat it?

OK, am really done now for the night.

LOL. I can't understand why in the decades since reactors have been functioning why they haven't come up with a plan for most of the "what ifs". I got to thinking about Japan's infrastructure and it prolly depends heavily upon nuclear energy rather than natural gas. Economically and with it geology, maybe natural gas would be just as dangerous with all the earthquakes and I don't think they have a pipeline coming in anywhere for it or oil......but I'm only guessing. lol

We're all brainstorming and wondering dsntslp---that's part of the reason we are all here....we enjoy analysing and hypothesizing ...even if our theories are "out there". So was Galileo..........

 

[scandi]

4.08am (1.08pm JST): Reuters is reporting that the US government has authorised the voluntary departure of the family members of embassy staff. The State Department is also chartering aircraft to Tokyo to help Americans leave Japan, it says.

Given the growing concern, it is worth a reminder that we have a piece looking at what the radiation levels actually mean.

And, as we have said, the bigger issue for many survivors right now is the inadequate supply of food, fuel and medicine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-aftermath-live

This reminds me of what a poster here {Kat I think} said, that when the US pulls out the family members of US military men in Japan at that base by the airport, we'll know it is a most serious situation. I would liken the families of embassy staff to those of any American on duty in Japan.