Japan - Japan Airline plane bursts into flame on landing after poss. coll. with coastguard plane, 5 dead - 2 Jan 2024

[iamshadow21]

This article from the BBC has more new comments from passengers about the evacuation, different than the initial one or two that were repeated ad nauseum.

Japan jet crash: Passengers describe chaos inside flight 516

Nearly 400 people were trapped inside a burning JAL 516. What happened next has been described as a miracle.

www.bbc.com

 

[iamshadow21]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1742459546130370580

(Alex is an aviation analyst, consultant, and broadcaster for media like Sky News, BBC, Al Jazeera, etc. He was actually quoted in an early article by Al Jazeera after the crash yesterday, but I imagine most of his commentary on this incident has been of the talking head variety, because that seems to be what he does a lot of.)

EDIT: I linked to this specifically because a number of today's articles have talked about how important this incident will be as the first major incident involving a plane composed of these materials. It seems this will be intensely studied by experts from all over the world just for that reason, not simply to prevent a future accident like this collision.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Coastguard plane 'told to hold short of runway' before Japan collision

The Japan Airlines passenger jet had reportedly been given permission by an air traffic controller to enter the runway at Haneda Airport before it collided with the coastguard aircraft.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Concerning. The question is, did the pilot not follow this instruction, or did he receive it too late, when he was already in the Airbus's path?

MOO

 

[investikater]

Coastguard plane 'told to hold short of runway' before Japan collision

The Japan Airlines passenger jet had reportedly been given permission by an air traffic controller to enter the runway at Haneda Airport before it collided with the coastguard aircraft.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Concerning. The question is, did the pilot not follow this instruction, or did he receive it too late, when he was already in the Airbus's path?

MOO

I've seen incidents where the pilots and or air traffic control are incorrect about where the planes are on the tarmac.

It was night time? Were there any other visibility issues?

Were these coast guard people visiting? It may have been the pilots first time at this airport? I hope not his first time at a Japanese airport?

It can be very confusing. The tarmac is basically a maze.

 

[MollyHarps]

Coastguard plane 'told to hold short of runway' before Japan collision

The Japan Airlines passenger jet had reportedly been given permission by an air traffic controller to enter the runway at Haneda Airport before it collided with the coastguard aircraft.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Concerning. The question is, did the pilot not follow this instruction, or did he receive it too late, when he was already in the Airbus's path?

MOO

I think the ‘blame game’ should be kept out of the media until a full investigation has taken place.

Until all facts have been established and investigated it is wrong IMO for media articles to be blaming anybody.

 

[iamshadow21]

I've seen incidents where the pilots and or air traffic control are incorrect about where the planes are on the tarmac.

It was night time? Were there any other visibility issues?

Were these coast guard people visiting? It may have been the pilots first time at this airport? I hope not his first time at a Japanese airport?

It can be very confusing. The tarmac is basically a maze.

It was night, and very busy due to the new year period and the aftermath of the earthquake increasing traffic further. The Coastguard crew were based out of this airport, as far as I can recall. I'll see if I can find which article stated this, but I've read at least thirty in the last 24 hours and they've all been subject to regular revisions, so forgive me if it takes a while. I do know I read that the Coastguard plane was older, so had an older kind of beacon on it that made its location less precise. I'll try to find where I read that, too.

EDIT: The info about the Coastguard plane having an older style transponder was in this article: https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...t/news-story/5c46b221bfbf87aafe0a7b3b32f51908

EDIT2: This link specifies the Coastguard crew were based at Haneda: Planes catch fire after a collision at Japan’s Haneda airport, killing 5. Hundreds evacuated safely

And it definitely wasn't the first time for the Coastguard pilot at a Japanese airport. He, like all the rest of the Coastguard crew, was Japanese. Their names have been publicly reported.

 

[iamshadow21]

Another expert talking about the importance of studying this incident to know how composites behave under these conditions.

Planes collide and catch fire at Japan's busy Haneda airport, killing 5. Hundreds evacuated safely

A large passenger plane and a Japanese coast guard aircraft have collided on the runway at Tokyo’s Haneda Airport and burst into flames

abcnews.go.com

 

[iamshadow21]

Japan jet crash: passenger plane was cleared to land, say officials

Smaller plane on runway was not cleared for takeoff, however, say authorities as investigations begin

www.theguardian.com

A bit more about the conflicting reports. This stood out to me.

Hiroyuki Kobayashi, a former JAL pilot and aviation analyst, said: “There’s a strong possibility this involved human error. Only one plane is generally allowed to enter the runway but even though landing clearance had been given, the Japan coastguard aircraft was on the runway.”

 

[iamshadow21]

Japan jet crash: How crew pulled off flawless evacuation from plane inferno

Leaving valuables behind was a "major factor" behind the evacuation of 379 people as fire engulfed the plane.

www.bbc.com

Really interesting detail about the rigorous initial and continuous training the cabin crew go through from a former JAL attendant. Also stuff from a former pilot and others about the complexity of the landing and evacuation due to the circumstances. Well worth a read.

 

[BeachSky]

Coastguard plane 'told to hold short of runway' before Japan collision

The Japan Airlines passenger jet had reportedly been given permission by an air traffic controller to enter the runway at Haneda Airport before it collided with the coastguard aircraft.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Concerning. The question is, did the pilot not follow this instruction, or did he receive it too late, when he was already in the Airbus's path?

MOO

That’s the first (after photo) I’ve seen of the coastguard plane. Can’t believe the pilot managed to get out.. Just tragic.
Moo

 

[iamshadow21]

That’s the first (after photo) I’ve seen of the coastguard plane. Can’t believe the pilot managed to get out.. Just tragic.
Moo

There's just nothing but a debris pattern left of it. That first big burst of flame you see in the video of the landing? That's the Coastguard plane exploding as it's struck full force by the landing Airbus. The cold comfort is, those who died more than likely knew nothing about it. I have no idea how the captain got out alive, and from all the flabbergasted former pilots and air investigators talking to the media, it sounds like nobody else does either. Perhaps the cockpit was sheared off by the impact, and was separated from the rest of the body of the plane where all the jet fuel was.

MOO

 

[Friday Fan]

Were these coast guard people visiting?

I read that this was the Japanese Coast Guard, who were on the way to deliver supplies to the earthquake area. (Earthquake area is about 200 miles away). I read the coast guard were leaving Tokyo.

 

[BeachSky]

Air controller, Coast Guard captain give differing accounts of Haneda crash | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport.

www3.nhk.or.jp

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport….
A transport ministry source said the air traffic controller cleared the Japan Airlines plane to land on runway C, and instructed the coast guard aircraft to stay short of it.
But a source from the Coast Guard said its pilot had received the green light to take off.

Japan Airlines: Coastguard plane not cleared for take-off, transcripts show - BBC News

A transcript shows a coastguard aircraft was told to hold short of the runway an airliner was approaching.

www.bbc.com

The transcripts appear to contradict the coastguard plane's captain - the only one of the six crew to survive - who told investigators he had been given permission to enter the runway which the JAL airliner was approaching

 

[MollyHarps]

Air controller, Coast Guard captain give differing accounts of Haneda crash | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport.

www3.nhk.or.jp

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport….
A transport ministry source said the air traffic controller cleared the Japan Airlines plane to land on runway C, and instructed the coast guard aircraft to stay short of it.
But a source from the Coast Guard said its pilot had received the green light to take off.

Japan Airlines: Coastguard plane not cleared for take-off, transcripts show - BBC News

A transcript shows a coastguard aircraft was told to hold short of the runway an airliner was approaching.

www.bbc.com

The transcripts appear to contradict the coastguard plane's captain - the only one of the six crew to survive - who told investigators he had been given permission to enter the runway which the JAL airliner was approaching

I was just reading this article.

Looking at the transcript it seems like human error by the coastguard captain.

Is he liable to face manslaughter charges possibly?

 

[PrairieWind]

Air controller, Coast Guard captain give differing accounts of Haneda crash | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport.

www3.nhk.or.jp

NHK has learned of discrepancies between the accounts given by an air traffic controller and the captain of a Japan Coast Guard plane in relation to Tuesday's collision at Tokyo's Haneda Airport….
A transport ministry source said the air traffic controller cleared the Japan Airlines plane to land on runway C, and instructed the coast guard aircraft to stay short of it.
But a source from the Coast Guard said its pilot had received the green light to take off.

Japan Airlines: Coastguard plane not cleared for take-off, transcripts show - BBC News

A transcript shows a coastguard aircraft was told to hold short of the runway an airliner was approaching.

www.bbc.com

The transcripts appear to contradict the coastguard plane's captain - the only one of the six crew to survive - who told investigators he had been given permission to enter the runway which the JAL airliner was approaching

I would think the recordings of the tower instruction transmissions and the cockpit voice recorder should have the story.

 

[vls12345]

Runway warning lights were broken at time of Japan Airlines plane fire, report shows

The warning lights telling pilots if a runway is clear were not working at the Haneda Airport the night a Japan Airlines plane caught fire, according to aviation data.

abcnews.go.com

"The warning lights that tell pilots whether a runway is clear were not working at the Haneda Airport the night a Japan Airlines plane caught fire after colliding with a coast guard aircraft, according to official aviation data.

A NOTAM message, a notice containing information essential to pilots and other personnel concerned with flight operations, issued on Dec. 27 alerted pilots that the light system was down for the foreseeable future.

It is unclear whether the the lack of warning lights on the runway played a role in how the incident unfolded. The investigation is ongoing."

 

[vls12345]

Japan Airlines pilots in Tokyo plane crash had to be told of fire by cabin crew – report

Flight attendants needed permission from cockpit to open emergency exits, broadcaster reports

www.theguardian.com

"But according to national broadcaster NHK, the Japan Airlines pilots in the cockpit did not know about the fire before being informed by the cabin crew.

The chief flight attendant reported to the cockpit that the plane was burning, as the cabin crew needed permission to open the emergency exits, NHK reported."

and

"It took 18 minutes to evacuate the entire plane, with the pilot the last person to set foot on the tarmac at 6:05 pm.

Soon afterwards, the entire aircraft was an inferno and dozens of fire engines tried to put out the blaze. That process ended up taking eight hours.

A dog and a cat, both pets, had to be left on the plane and died, the airline said."

 

[Cryptic]

Were these coast guard people visiting? It may have been the pilots first time at this airport? I hope not his first time at a Japanese airport?

It can be very confusing. The tarmac is basically a maze.

I can think of one possibility....

The language of international aviation is English and flight crews and air traffic controllers are presumed to be fluent in English regarding aviation terms and commands.

But... I wonder how proficient in English Japanese Coast Guard pilots are? Likewise, what language do Japanese military air traffic controllers use?

If Japanese military and coast guard aviators frequently use Japanese, the small difference between say: "Cleared to pre take off holding area" and "Cleared for take off" might have been misunderstood by the Coast Guard crew.

As a side note, language confusion led to one aviation disaster when a Spanish speaking pilot was dangerously low on fuel and being delayed by ATC. The pilot repeatedly requested a "priority landing" in English. The ATC then cut him in line a few planes. But... the pilot should have used the term "emergency landing".

 

[investikater]

Runway warning lights were broken at time of Japan Airlines plane fire, report shows

The warning lights telling pilots if a runway is clear were not working at the Haneda Airport the night a Japan Airlines plane caught fire, according to aviation data.

abcnews.go.com

"The warning lights that tell pilots whether a runway is clear were not working at the Haneda Airport the night a Japan Airlines plane caught fire after colliding with a coast guard aircraft, according to official aviation data.

A NOTAM message, a notice containing information essential to pilots and other personnel concerned with flight operations, issued on Dec. 27 alerted pilots that the light system was down for the foreseeable future.

It is unclear whether the the lack of warning lights on the runway played a role in how the incident unfolded. The investigation is ongoing."

There will be redundancy procedures but of course it played a role! That seems like such a silly thing for that journo to write?

 

[investikater]

Japan Airlines pilots in Tokyo plane crash had to be told of fire by cabin crew – report

Flight attendants needed permission from cockpit to open emergency exits, broadcaster reports

www.theguardian.com

"But according to national broadcaster NHK, the Japan Airlines pilots in the cockpit did not know about the fire before being informed by the cabin crew.

The chief flight attendant reported to the cockpit that the plane was burning, as the cabin crew needed permission to open the emergency exits, NHK reported."

and

"It took 18 minutes to evacuate the entire plane, with the pilot the last person to set foot on the tarmac at 6:05 pm.

Soon afterwards, the entire aircraft was an inferno and dozens of fire engines tried to put out the blaze. That process ended up taking eight hours.

A dog and a cat, both pets, had to be left on the plane and died, the airline said."

How could they not have known it was on fire?