Found Deceased JAPAN - Patricia "Pattie" Wu-Murad, 60, US Citizen, on hiking trip Kumano Kodo Trail, didn't arr next stop Osaka, 10 Apr 2023

[Interested_But_Confused]

Pilgrims on the Spanish Caminos will walk on with knees that hurt, feet that hurt, legs that hurt, shoes with a bad fit, broken glasses taped together, whatever. One toe is nothing in that respect. They will walk on.
Especially pilgrims from the US will take painkillers like Ibuprofen on a daily basis for weeks if they have to, like candy or even as prevention. Don't know if Pattie did the same, of course.

Often, the pain will disappear during the night, because rest is healing. So the person leaves refreshed and (almost) pain-free the next morning and during the day, the pain will return, and they'll grind their teeth until their destination. And repeat.

Pattie was half-way her pilgrimage on the Kohechi, with only two days to go. That one toe would not have stopped her.

Normally I would agree with all of this, but in Pattie's case it's her own husband who is suggesting she accepted a ride instead of walking the trail--and he's citing her toe as a potential reason.

My hunch is that Pattie may have hitched a ride before. Otherwise it seems a little strange to me that Kirk Murad would think she might have done something she'd never done previously.

 

[ZaZara]

Normally I would agree with all of this, but in Pattie's case it's her own husband who is suggesting she accepted a ride instead of walking the trail--and he's citing her toe as a potential reason.

My hunch is that Pattie may have hitched a ride before. Otherwise it seems a little strange to me that Kirk Murad would think she might have done something she'd never done previously.

IMO all things considered, the suggestion made by the husband is a bit strange. It only makes sense if Pattie took that wrong route (the one that was taped for the ultra-run) and ended up on the road again after a while.
But for Pattie to leave the guesthouse early, in good spirits and full of energy and then accept a ride because her toe was giving her trouble within a short walk of a mere 10 minutes ... no that does not make sense to me.

There is a bus stop, she might have taken the bus, she might have asked her host about the schedule. Maybe she did, maybe she looked up the times on her phone ... here's hoping again that the phone data will becoma available soon.

 

[slowpoke]

she could have been refreshed after a night's sleep and toe might not have hurt again until she started walking on it.?
Someone came along in a vehicle, noticed she was limping or had stopped to address the toe issue?
I'm wondering at the nature of the toe injury?
Thinking possibly a cut that got infected? Tetanus? Anything?

Maybe I overestimate Pattie’s abilities, but since her family says she’s very experienced with long distance hiking, I just see her as being able to power through what I am picturing as a blister or a bruised toe (“hiker’s toe”).

Not that I am sure I’d know what to do (tape? moleskin?)—but with Pattie having gone on several similar trips, and being the planner she is said to be, I‘d think she’d be prepared with lots of first aid/remedies for such occurrences, which I feel must be very common on long hikes.

Of course, you’re right, there’s always the possibility it was a more serious injury. Wish we knew.

 

[kittythehare]

Maybe I overestimate Pattie’s abilities, but since her family says she’s very experienced with long distance hiking, I just see her as being able to power through what I am picturing as a blister or a bruised toe (“hiker’s toe”).

Not that I am sure I’d know what to do (tape? moleskin?)—but with Pattie having gone on several similar trips, and being the planner she is said to be, I‘d think she’d be prepared with lots of first aid/remedies for such occurrences, which I feel must be very common on long hikes.

Of course, you’re right, there’s always the possibility it was a more serious injury. Wish we knew.

It's the only clue we have.
I agree with your assessment of her abilities but i'm also grasping at straws.

Where would be the nearest medical practice or First Aid place to the entrance to her walk, I wonder? Miles or metres? Could she have noticed a sudden severe swelling and knew she needed medical attention to fix it, perhaps?
What maps would she have consulted if she went searching for help quite soon after taking off?

A tick or snake bite, something venomous that did not manifest immediately but when it did, it really did.

(I was washing a very infected feral cat one morning and she bit me hard, stupid of me.
i took the relevant homeopathic remedies thinking it was sorted but next day I had purple tracks running up my arm to my shoulder. My GP was not impressed and I was lucky I didn't have to go to hospital for IV antibiotics.
it was painful but i had no reason to think it would get as bad as it did. Fine in the end but I had to swallow quite a lot of very high strength penicillin, maybe something that started off apparently mild and after time became systemic?)

But I think her husband knows her best and when he says he believes she trusted the wrong person, we should believe him?

Someone offered her a cure or healing of some description and she went with them because it was closer than a hospital?

 

[kittythehare]

This is dated May 2.
That trail was not easy peasy by a long shot!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/02/japan-missing-hiker-volunteers/

 

[Curiousobserver]

It is understandable that the family would start to entertain ideas that seem less likely as they complete the investigation into more likely scenarios with no progress.

When you're stuck go back and start over at square one- with the last person who saw her alive.

 

[muppethead]

It is understandable that the family would start to entertain ideas that seem less likely as they complete the investigation into more likely scenarios with no progress.

When you're stuck go back and start over at square one- with the last person who saw her alive.

or video evidence of life, as the last person to see her may be mistaken or have an ulterior motive. MOO - I am not casting any aspersions at anyone. Did they ever bring a sniffing dog in to follow her trail?

 

[StillDiggin]

More sad news from missing people in Japan. There is a Chicago resident missing in Japan. Kandace Schipper, 29, has been uncontactable since June 5 from the Shibuya area of Tokyo.
Lets hope Kandace is found safe and well soon.

Japan - Kandace Schipper, 29, Last known location is the Shibuya City area of Tokyo, June 5 2023

kandace’s family are experiencing the worst fears possible, Chicago resident Kandace Schipper, 29, has been reported missing in Japan. She has been travelling in Japan since May 8. No one has heard from her since June 4. She was communicating with family & friends but has not been reachable for...

www.websleuths.com

 

[duckcat]

Considering the extensive search and its lack of evidence, I have been strongly considering abduction as a possibility. The innkeepers comments about a possible kidnapping are quite strange.

I know this will sound farfetched, but Patti has an interesting background. She’s of Taiwanese origin and her background is in engineering. She recently retired from a company that merged with Raytheon around the time of her retirement. She worked there for over a decade. The company develops technologies related to aerospace and military manufacturing and trade compliance, amongst other things. There also seems to have been a scandal with the company a few years ago when they were caught selling military technologies to China.

What I am getting at—there has been a history of kidnapping in Japan by North Korea to teach English and Japanese and other technical knowledge to their citizens. This was done easily by boat across the Sea of Japan. It’s not spoken about much anymore, but I have no doubt it still continues unreported given the ongoing tensions. Given her past company’s relations with China, this could have even been a bad actor within Japan.

With Patti’s background in military manufacturing and trade, a US/Taiwanese national, and an older woman traveling alone in a remote area, she could very well be an attractive target, whether planned (social media stalking? Accounts compromised? Passport alert?) or a crime of opportunity (speaking about her past to the wrong person at a hostel).

I don’t doubt that this hasn’t crossed her family’s minds given their early concerns about foul play, and the fact that the FBI was apparently involved very early on. It’s a terrifying thought regardless.

If there have been any concerns about this, I would imagine there’s been resistance from all sides to make mention of it in the media to avoid stirring the pot as far as relations go. It seems it would be difficult to point the finger at anyone, yet also seems like a noteworthy data point of why kidnapping is certainly plausible. Tensions across Asia have been pretty high for a while now.

Lastly, given the sensitivity of her background, I am sure it’s relevant to why the police are being less than helpful to share any phone data they have. This opens up a can of worms that would be revealing of Japan’s surveillance technologies. There is always sensitivity between nations sharing data and technology, and the U.S. still to this day have military bases in Japan.

My 2cents? If any of this is relevant, I suspect the police, or someone in that town (the innkeeper?) may know more, but to avoid heightening tensions, they’re reluctant to share until more information is gathered. I would imagine Japan’s own intelligence agency has been investigating, given that Patti likely still has security clearances that she needed to report if she retired recently.

Here’s the wiki on her past employer:

United Technologies - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Considering the extensive search and its lack of evidence, I have been strongly considering abduction as a possibility. The innkeepers comments about a possible kidnapping are quite strange.

I know this will sound farfetched, but Patti has an interesting background. She’s of Taiwanese origin and her background is in engineering. She recently retired from a company that merged with Raytheon around the time of her retirement. She worked there for over a decade. The company develops technologies related to aerospace and military manufacturing and trade compliance, amongst other things. There also seems to have been a scandal with the company a few years ago when they were caught selling military technologies to China.

What I am getting at—there has been a history of kidnapping in Japan by North Korea to teach English and Japanese and other technical knowledge to their citizens. This was done easily by boat across the Sea of Japan. It’s not spoken about much anymore, but I have no doubt it still continues unreported given the ongoing tensions. Given her past company’s relations with China, this could have even been a bad actor within Japan.

With Patti’s background as an engineer in military manufacturing and trade, a Taiwanese national, and an older woman traveling alone in a remote area, she could very well be an attractive target, whether planned (social media stalking? Passport alert?) or a crime of opportunity (speaking about her past to the wrong person at a hostel).

I don’t doubt that this hasn’t crossed her family’s minds given their early concerns about foul play, and the fact that the FBI was apparently involved very early on. It’s a terrifying thought regardless.

If there have been any concerns about this, I would imagine there’s been resistance from all sides to make mention of it in the media to avoid stirring the pot as far as relations go. It seems it would be difficult to point the finger at anyone, yet also seems like a noteworthy data point of why kidnapping is certainly plausible. Tensions across Asia have been pretty high for a while now.

Lastly, given the sensitivity of her background, I am sure it’s relevant to why the police are being less than helpful to share any phone data they have. This opens up a can of worms that would be revealing of Japan’s surveillance technologies. There is always sensitivity between nations sharing data and technology, and the U.S. still to this day have military bases in Japan.

Here’s the wiki on her past employer:

United Technologies - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I could see this as a real possibility, for sure.

All of her recent professional work is in trade compliance, not engineering per se. But I feel certain that she was working under higher level security clearances.

Having worked for the largest computer and defense companies, I do know there were rigid training and protocol procedures for employees working overseas. And she only retired this past year.

All of the points you bring up with this scenario are plausible, in my mind.
And all the more reason, for us to hear nothing about what might be going on...

Do we know more specific about the FBI involvement???
I've missed those details.

 

[duckcat]

I could see this as a real possibility, for sure.

All of her recent professional work is in trade compliance, not engineering per se. But I feel certain that she was working under higher level security clearances.

Having worked for the largest computer and defense companies, I do know there were rigid training and protocol procedures for employees working overseas. And she only retired this past year.

All of the points you bring up with this scenario are plausible, in my mind.
And all the more reason, for us to hear nothing about what might be going on...

Do we know more specific about the FBI involvement???
I've missed those details.

Definitely. At the very least, she would have intimate knowledge about sensitive technologies, even if not from a very technical side. It looks like she was working in the Aerospace division, so likely has knowledge of classified defense technologies for aircraft and satellites—both areas that NK is highly interested in, as recently with news in today’s headlines even.

Not that I it’s possible for this to be directly related at all, but interestingly since April, NK has really ramped up its media coverage about its National Aerospace Development Administration (NADA). One of many articles i found from April: Newstream | KCNA Watch

It’s hard to find a ton on information about it, but there is a history of NK kidnapping foreigners for political and technical gain: The Sad but True Story of North Korea's Abduction Project

I don’t know that Pattie was a super “stand-out” target more than anyone else working in that industry, but could have been exposed in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do think her US/Taiwanese background could be something that adds further interest, considering the political chess piece state of things.

Pattie’s daughter Murphy has mentioned the FBI in passing a few times in her updates, starting pretty early on which I thought was a little unusual. She mentioned that the FBI is working with Japanese authorities to get access to Pattie’s cell data, and that she’s been forwarding all tips that she receives to the FBI.

It’s a tough situation because if any part of this is reality, it would be very difficult to get proof considering the impenetrable state of NK. The US OTOH would probably be very wary of launching accusations without definitive evidence. Japan would have similar concerns. It’s possible even that Japan could suspect a situation like this to be that of a defector. The “maybe she wanted to disappear” suggestion could be read in that way.

Regardless, a possible hostile kidnapping taking place in a foreign country makes it much more complicated. There would definitely be missing info due to 3 countries being sus of each others intentions. Very scary to imagine.

 

[ZaZara]

More sad news from missing people in Japan. There is a Chicago resident missing in Japan. Kandace Schipper, 29, has been uncontactable since June 5 from the Shibuya area of Tokyo.
Lets hope Kandace is found safe and well soon.

Japan - Kandace Schipper, 29, Last known location is the Shibuya City area of Tokyo, June 5 2023

kandace’s family are experiencing the worst fears possible, Chicago resident Kandace Schipper, 29, has been reported missing in Japan. She has been travelling in Japan since May 8. No one has heard from her since June 4. She was communicating with family & friends but has not been reachable for...

www.websleuths.com

Kandace Schipper has been found. For comments, see Help Find Pattie on FB.

Chicago woman who went missing while traveling in Japan has been found

 

[ItalyReader]

Definitely. At the very least, she would have intimate knowledge about sensitive technologies, even if not from a very technical side. It looks like she was working in the Aerospace division, so likely has knowledge of classified defense technologies for aircraft and satellites—both areas that NK is highly interested in, as recently with news in today’s headlines even.

Not that I it’s possible for this to be directly related at all, but interestingly since April, NK has really ramped up its media coverage about its National Aerospace Development Administration (NADA). One of many articles i found from April: Newstream | KCNA Watch

It’s hard to find a ton on information about it, but there is a history of NK kidnapping foreigners for political and technical gain: The Sad but True Story of North Korea's Abduction Project

I don’t know that Pattie was a super “stand-out” target more than anyone else working in that industry, but could have been exposed in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do think her US/Taiwanese background could be something that adds further interest, considering the political chess piece state of things.

Pattie’s daughter Murphy has mentioned the FBI in passing a few times in her updates, starting pretty early on which I thought was a little unusual. She mentioned that the FBI is working with Japanese authorities to get access to Pattie’s cell data, and that she’s been forwarding all tips that she receives to the FBI.

It’s a tough situation because if any part of this is reality, it would be very difficult to get proof considering the impenetrable state of NK. The US OTOH would probably be very wary of launching accusations without definitive evidence. Japan would have similar concerns. It’s possible even that Japan could suspect a situation like this to be that of a defector. The “maybe she wanted to disappear” suggestion could be read in that way.

Regardless, a possible hostile kidnapping taking place in a foreign country makes it much more complicated. There would definitely be missing info due to 3 countries being sus of each others intentions. Very scary to imagine.

It’s an interesting angle -

I have two main thoughts - all MOO and my own wild speculation as I amateurly explore this angle.

One - wouldn’t a team of kidnappers really stick out in the very sparsely visited and remote area of the Kohechi trail? Or maybe the kidnappers were the trail runners? But no because the trail runners were interviewed, weren’t they?
An international kidnapping on the one hand might be easy if no one is around - but there *were* a handful of people around - the Australian, the trail runners, the local residents.
I think someone would have seen something.

Two - wouldn’t NK have had to identify and target her prior (and when/at what point?) and then track her? I’m trying to imagine how that might have occurred - maybe they tracked her upon entry into Japan, comparing passenger lists to open source data like LinkedIn or otherwise black web or intelligence data they keep.
I’m just trying to imagine how they would have pinpointed her if she had an ordinary engineering career. I’m sure lots of excellent engineers visit Japan without being kidnapped - why Pattie specifically and how?
And if she had an extraordinary career compared to other engineers, how would NK have known - and wouldn’t she or her employers have put extra cautions in place to protect her?

I find this angle very interesting but I’m not sure about it. Open to brainstorming more about it.

 

[ZaZara]

It’s an interesting angle -

I have two main thoughts - all MOO and my own wild speculation as I amateurly explore this angle.

One - wouldn’t a team of kidnappers really stick out in the very sparsely visited and remote area of the Kohechi trail? Or maybe the kidnappers were the trail runners? But no because the trail runners were interviewed, weren’t they?
An international kidnapping on the one hand might be easy if no one is around - but there *were* a handful of people around - the Australian, the trail runners, the local residents.
I think someone would have seen something.

Two - wouldn’t NK have had to identify and target her prior (and when/at what point?) and then track her? I’m trying to imagine how that might have occurred - maybe they tracked her upon entry into Japan, comparing passenger lists to open source data like LinkedIn or otherwise black web or intelligence data they keep.
I’m just trying to imagine how they would have pinpointed her if she had an ordinary engineering career. I’m sure lots of excellent engineers visit Japan without being kidnapped - why Pattie specifically and how?
And if she had an extraordinary career compared to other engineers, how would NK have known - and wouldn’t she or her employers have put extra cautions in place to protect her?

I find this angle very interesting but I’m not sure about it. Open to brainstorming more about it.

Interesting points!

I would like to add the following:

Before she went to Japan to hike the Shikoku trail - the Kohechi trail was an unplanned extra! - Pattie hiked the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Why wasn't she kidnapped by the Russians on that trail? The Russians are in dire need of advanced technology for their war against Ukraine, which is ongoing. IMO the urgency is greater than that of NK.

Btw Pattie's experience was in Trade Compliance, not in Research or Development. The Russians and North Koreans only needed to look up her proifile on LinkedIn to know that she wasn't the big tech fish (think Wernher von Braun) they were hoping for.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Definitely. At the very least, she would have intimate knowledge about sensitive technologies, even if not from a very technical side. It looks like she was working in the Aerospace division, so likely has knowledge of classified defense technologies for aircraft and satellites—both areas that NK is highly interested in, as recently with news in today’s headlines even.

Not that I it’s possible for this to be directly related at all, but interestingly since April, NK has really ramped up its media coverage about its National Aerospace Development Administration (NADA). One of many articles i found from April: Newstream | KCNA Watch

It’s hard to find a ton on information about it, but there is a history of NK kidnapping foreigners for political and technical gain: The Sad but True Story of North Korea's Abduction Project

I don’t know that Pattie was a super “stand-out” target more than anyone else working in that industry, but could have been exposed in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do think her US/Taiwanese background could be something that adds further interest, considering the political chess piece state of things.

Pattie’s daughter Murphy has mentioned the FBI in passing a few times in her updates, starting pretty early on which I thought was a little unusual. She mentioned that the FBI is working with Japanese authorities to get access to Pattie’s cell data, and that she’s been forwarding all tips that she receives to the FBI.

It’s a tough situation because if any part of this is reality, it would be very difficult to get proof considering the impenetrable state of NK. The US OTOH would probably be very wary of launching accusations without definitive evidence. Japan would have similar concerns. It’s possible even that Japan could suspect a situation like this to be that of a defector. The “maybe she wanted to disappear” suggestion could be read in that way.

Regardless, a possible hostile kidnapping taking place in a foreign country makes it much more complicated. There would definitely be missing info due to 3 countries being sus of each others intentions. Very scary to imagine.

Abductions are not just for highly advanced technology experts.

Some abductions have been simply for language proficiency.

The article above (The Sad but True Story of NK's Abduction Project) is very good.

 

[ItalyReader]

Interesting points!

I would like to add the following:

Before she went to Japan to hike the Shikoku trail - the Kohechi trail was an unplanned extra! - Pattie hiked the Camino de Santiago in Spain.

Why wasn't she kidnapped by the Russians on that trail? The Russians are in dire need of advanced technology for their war against Ukraine, which is ongoing. IMO the urgency is greater than that of NK.

Btw Pattie's experience was in Trade Compliance, not in Research or Development. The Russians and North Koreans only needed to look up her proifile on LinkedIn to know that she wasn't the big tech fish (think Wernher von Braun) they were hoping for.

If the Russians wanted to kidnap an engineer there are many easier places for them to do so than the middle of isolated Japanese hiking trails, right?
I think it’s an interesting angle but the more I think about it, the more I think it’s highly unlikely that she was targeted for an abduction by a nation like NK or Russia.
I think it’s much more likely she was abducted by a local resident or a stalker in the woods, or even likelier that she simply befell a common hiking peril/fall/wrong turn.

 

[Curiousobserver]

If the Russians wanted to kidnap an engineer there are many easier places for them to do so than the middle of isolated Japanese hiking trails, right?
I think it’s an interesting angle but the more I think about it, the more I think it’s highly unlikely that she was targeted for an abduction by a nation like NK or Russia.
I think it’s much more likely she was abducted by a local resident or a stalker in the woods, or even likelier that she simply befell a common hiking peril/fall/wrong turn.

We have seen a lot of missing hiker cases here, most of them in the remote wilderness of the US. In those cases it is very easy to understand how a person can go missing without a trace since areas are vast, undeveloped, and off-trail areas might not see another person for 100 years.

This one seems to be different to me. The trail is wild, but not as isolated. There are steeps areas, but those areas are also heavily treed which would tend to catch your body as you fall. There are less good reasons to go off trail (i.e. there are bathrooms along the trail).

MOO they need to go back to square 1 and re-confirm every verifiable step she took with an open mind that it is possible that she never did get on that trail as one of many possible scenarios.

As stated by this poster: "I think it’s much more likely she was abducted by a local resident or a stalker in the woods, or even likelier that she simply befell a common hiking peril/fall/wrong turn."

 

[ZaZara]

If the Russians wanted to kidnap an engineer there are many easier places for them to do so than the middle of isolated Japanese hiking trails, right?
I think it’s an interesting angle but the more I think about it, the more I think it’s highly unlikely that she was targeted for an abduction by a nation like NK or Russia.
I think it’s much more likely she was abducted by a local resident or a stalker in the woods, or even likelier that she simply befell a common hiking peril/fall/wrong turn.

The Camino de Santiago that Pattie hiked earlier is a trail in Spain (Europe). Russians are very active in Spain.

IMO there is nothing in her career and expertise that would make her at risk of an abduction for technological knowledge.
On the other hand, since she was a small woman, it would be easy to grab her and put her in the boot of a car in seconds. For tea and English lessons, as the Japanese so aptly put it.

 

[slowpoke]

On the other hand, since she was a small woman, it would be easy to grab her and put her in the boot of a car in seconds. For tea and English lessons, as the Japanese so aptly put it.

Snipped and bolded by me ^

I was watching a YouTube video from “Abroad in Japan”(content by a British man who has been in Japan for, I think, over 10 years.) He was talking about individuals who approach people, and they are part of a religious sect or cult who want to draw you in to their religion, and also possibly get you to give money to their organization, if I understood it accurately.

It made me wonder if that man (or men?) who was persistent with that Kumano Kodo hiker to come help him practice his English was a similar ruse.

In the video, he talks about this at around 11:42.
YouTube Abroad in Japan - Tourist scams

 

[slowpoke]

Another holiday, Father’s Day, has come that has got to be a very hard one for the Murad family.

On the Help Find Pattie FB page there are some family photos of happy times, and many wishes and thoughts for Kirk.

(And—Happy Father’s Day to all dads out there in Websleuth-land!)