JBR, PR and UMI

  • #741
btw Agatha,
sorry for that argument we had the other day and for some of the stuff I said.....am an emotional wreck lately......
:truce: ?

Maddy, Please don't be sorry. You have the right to speak out. If I offend you, how will I ever know if you don't tell me. I am a strong personality, I am very hard to understand, I know that. So too am I open, caring, and understanding. You were hurt and I was defensive, and together we were human. Lets let it go and get back to the reason we are both here, justice for JBR. Peace :truce:
 
  • #742
Maddy,

Please forgive my intrusion in your discussion. I know a little about childrens plastic surgery. The only time a child can have a nose job would be for reconstruction, e.g, injury. They can't do nose jobs just because (please, I'm not trying to be argumentative). Her face wasn't done with growing and maturing, so most Surgeons wouldn't have done it. However, I can't say what money might have bought the R's.

Maddy, when I was looking at the Christmas photo of JB and Patsy, it went through my mind that it was a good thing that JB didn't inherit her mother's nose! So when I read your post I thought, wow, something could be up right there. What about this? When Burke hit JB with the club, do we know where he hit her? This could easily have been Patsy's excuse to get the plastic surgery. And didn't this happen in Charlevoix, away from all the folks that see JB on a daily basis? I wouldn't rule it out, myself.
 
  • #743
You know, thats an interesting point the two of you have brought up. I know some might think whats the big deal, it isnt what killed her. But if you put these little things together, you begin to see what could have driven this family to go as far as they did.
 
  • #744
The incident is mentioned in Steve Thomas's book. It says:

In the summer of 1994, JonBenet was accidentally hit on the left cheek by a golf club, swung by her brother Burke, and her mother rushed the child to see a plastic surgeon who thought Patsy was overreacting.
 
  • #745
Okay...let's not get into plastic surgery for JonBenet, lipstick on Burke, Mommy gripping JonBenet too hard.

Burke and JonBenet's lips were always dark, look at their pics. JonBenet was hit under her eye, not nose. She fell off a grocery cart once and hurt her nose. These are accidents folks. My 5yo has had stitches on her lips, stitches on her ear, all from accidents.. ..She even broke her hand.

We are here to talk about a murder which I believe started with a horrible accident. No conspiracies, no pedophile ring, etc..

Patsy loved her children, period.
 
  • #746
Maddy, I can see exactly what you mean about JB's nose, but I think it is the angle of the shot- one is full face the other is 3/4. Plus, she seems to be a bit younger in the first one (the color full-face shot), and younger kids have a shorter nose bridge. I don't think she had her nose altered.
 
  • #747
DD, also I think it might be the facial expression, in one she is smiling and the other is serious and drawn downward.
 
  • #748
I found some an interesting read and thought to share my find.... Its worth a read, now dont let the beginning fool you it isnt what you think in the end......


by Mark Soukup, Guest Contributor

When the murder of JonBenét Ramsey hit the news I thought the 6-year-old pageant princess's father John Ramsey was some kind of pedophile and guilty of the crime. I wasn't very interested in the case. But I had just switched to an early shift at work and listened to local talk radio where the case was covered extensively. But when the autopsy report and ransom note were made public, I saw Patsy Paugh Ramsey, the former Miss West Virginia, as the perpetrator.

I also saw the killing as a type of sacrifice. For years I had been reading books on the psychological interpretation of mythology. From what I'd studied, many of the odd and seemingly incomprehensible aspects of the crime could be seen as having symbolic meaning known only to the offender.

This type of attachment to myth and dream symbolism is typical of psychosis. In some cases a psychotic will take destructive action as a means to manifest their psychotic fantasy. I brought this up to the local talk-radio host but the idea was dismissed. I was curious if the idea had come up before, but back then I had no access to the Internet. So I started reading about the case.

Small Sacrifice

The first book I got was Andrew Hodge's A Mother Gone Bad, and in it I found a reference to the Seraph report. That small group of investigators was commissioned by the Boulder police for an assessment of the ransom note and crime. They concluded Patsy Ramsey had sacrificed her daughter. Their interpretation of sacrifice was different from mine but at least I knew the subject had been brought up to police. At this point the case was two years old.

My line of reasoning came from an approach to dream analysis that is used by Jungians called amplification. I took the theme of literature that is prevalent in the case from the ransom note to John Douglas's Mind Hunter to The Bible and looked for common elements. The common elements, if found, would indicate a "complex," a behavior-centering force in the mind of the perpetrator.

A Sacrifice of Biblical Contortions

For example, the role of the Psalms in the case was well known with a possible connection between the ransom amount and a common interpretation of Psalm 118 that mentions sacrifice. Also, the Ramsey family Bible (NIV study version) was open to a passage that has four lines beginning with the letters C, T, B, S—the reverse of the cryptic ransom note sign-off: S.B.T.C.

Further reading of the Psalms revealed a repeated use of words, phrases, and ideas that are common to the crime and to mother Patsy Ramsey's life in general. After careful study, I thought I had the key to not only the identification of the single perpetrator but an indication that the death of JonBenét was not due to an accident, as was the prevalent theory, but was the intentional act of a person in the grip of a psychosis.

By this time I had access to the Internet. I hit the forums with my ideas and was both lauded and rebuffed. The lack of acceptance made me dig even more. I went back to the trail of literature left by Patsy herself and fixed on Muriel Spark's The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie since Patsy had chosen to perform a soliloquy from the novel/play in the talent portions of her pageants. Again, I was looking for an indication of a complex. I started with the movie and found three uses of the word "sacrifice" by Jean Brodie (in film still, above). I thought sacrifice was the centering theme in Patsy's psychosis, which she found unavoidably attractive in Spark's work.

JonBenét and Fruit from the Poisoned Case

It took me several months before I read the book. Just a few pages in was a description of a tea party with two members of the Brodie set where pineapple was served. The appearance of pineapple in JonBenét's digestive tract along with the Ramseys' denial of having served it to her—and the use of pineapple by Spark in her novel—was the first mythic connection for me between the crime and a work of literature Patsy was known to have been intimately familiar with.

A few pages more and the question of the spelling of "possession" came up in the novel. The misspelling of possession in the ransom note was part of the heated conversation of the case on the radio and Internet. A detailed study of the book, play, and movie revealed many, many items common to both the crime and to Patsy and the literature she was known to have been associated with, including the chillingly titled Death of Innocence.

Many, many aspects of the case seemed strange and incomprehensible to investigators and to the public and were attributed to panic, amateurism, desperation with the possible source of ideas for staging found in crime books and movies. My investigation into this theme of literature, to me, has revealed coincidence after coincidence between the death of JonBenét Ramsey and the life of Patsy Paugh Ramsey. A preponderance of coincidence rules out coincidence and out of what seems to be a random jumble comes a pattern; the use of one person by another as an object in a personal psychotic fantasy.

A person in psychosis often sees themselves as either a mythic figure or related to one in some way. They also may see themselves as part of a mythic storyline. They may exhibit behaviors that have a high degree of structure but with a low degree of rationality as they follow the mythic storyline. This story may be self created and/or part of an existing, archetypal, or well- known story that can be easily found in popular literature. It is my opinion that the death of JonBenét Ramsey is the result of just such a psychosis and the evidence for it can be found in the products of the creative life of Patsy Ramsey—her writing, her artwork, her correspondences, her pageant performances, the ransom note and even what was done to the body of JonBenét.
 
  • #749
I believe that Patsy may have had an UMI and although I don't know if it directly led to JonBenet's death; I do think it explains a lot about how Patsy acted after the murder. I've wondered if Patsy had a mental illness where she would do everything possible to enhance JonBenet's beauty and then subsequently became jealous of JonBenet. There has been speculation that Patsy was jealous of JonBenet so why would she bother showing JonBenet off? Does that fit into any type of mental illness?

Many people have noted Patsy acting more dramatic than genuinely emotional in the years following JonBenet's murder. She has also referred to JonBenet as, "That Child" which seems like an aloof way to talk about her murdered daughter. Now if Patsy was jealous of JonBenet when JonBenet was alive, then I think her jealously could have only magnified after JonBenet was murdered. Yes, Patsy did become famous after JonBenet's murder but she wasn't the one on the cover of magazines, etc.

Before JonBenet's murder, it was the murderers that got the attention. In the OJ Simpson Trial, it was all about OJ not Nicole and Ron. Then we have Ted Bundy, BTK, Zodiac, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. They are household names but their victims are not. It wasn't until the 2000s when the victims began to get more attention than their killers. Is it possible that Patsy killed JonBenet thinking that she would be the one who would get the attention? That she would be the "star" of the murder? Could her UMI cause her to not care if people called her a child killer since it meant they were talking about her?

The cover of DOI has John and Patsy's picture on the front with JonBenet's picture on the back cover. Why? I have to wonder if that was Patsy's idea to have her picture on the front where everyone in the bookstore can see it and relegate JonBenet to the back of the book where she belonged.
 
  • #750
Thanks,Agatha. Has anyone ever wondered if her death was an accident and Patsy, due to the UMI, could have tied all of these "coincidences" in with the staging? I think it's quite possible. We all know that Patsy would not have wanted Jonbenet to die of something as mundane as an accident. With tying in all of these references to TPOMJB, Patsy has lifted JonBenet up where she belongs in the mind of the world. After all, we are still talking about her 14 years later. Yes, I believe the death was an accident, but Patsy turned it around (in her own mind).
 
  • #751
Or someone else killed JonBenet and she used the novel to set the staging. One of my patients last night is a defense lawyer. We had a very interesting discussion about this case.
 
  • #752
  • #753
Thanks,Agatha. Has anyone ever wondered if her death was an accident and Patsy, due to the UMI, could have tied all of these "coincidences" in with the staging? I think it's quite possible. We all know that Patsy would not have wanted Jonbenet to die of something as mundane as an accident. With tying in all of these references to TPOMJB, Patsy has lifted JonBenet up where she belongs in the mind of the world. After all, we are still talking about her 14 years later. Yes, I believe the death was an accident, but Patsy turned it around (in her own mind).

I'm not sure if the staging was done because Patsy didn't want JonBenet to die in a "boring" accident but in a "glamorous" murder or if the staging was done to point more towards an intruder? In the first scenario, JonBenet could have died entirely by her own hand but Patsy could have gone into temporary insanity (since she just lost a child) because her daughter had just died an ordinary death? I don't know why John would have gone along with that though. In the second scenario, someone in the house is directly responsible for what happened to JonBenet. The second scenario also sounds like the accident could have been more sinister.
 
  • #754
I'm not sure if the staging was done because Patsy didn't want JonBenet to die in a "boring" accident but in a "glamorous" murder or if the staging was done to point more towards an intruder? In the first scenario, JonBenet could have died entirely by her own hand but Patsy could have gone into temporary insanity (since she just lost a child) because her daughter had just died an ordinary death? I don't know why John would have gone along with that though. In the second scenario, someone in the house is directly responsible for what happened to JonBenet. The second scenario also sounds like the accident could have been more sinister.

I don't think it was a matter of Patsy not wanting a "boring" death for her daughter. I think the staging was for the purposed of pointing to an intruder.
However, Patsy did make the most of the funeral. That was meant to be spectacular. The "Jaquie Kennedy" "widow's weeds" (right down to the veil and sunglasses), the national media coverage, JB complete with frilly pageant dress and tiara, frozen forever in the world's mind as the tiny, tragic murdered beauty queen.
 
  • #755
I don't think it was a matter of Patsy not wanting a "boring" death for her daughter. I think the staging was for the purposed of pointing to an intruder.
However, Patsy did make the most of the funeral. That was meant to be spectacular. The "Jaquie Kennedy" "widow's weeds" (right down to the veil and sunglasses), the national media coverage, JB complete with frilly pageant dress and tiara, frozen forever in the world's mind as the tiny, tragic murdered beauty queen.



She even likened her to Princess Diana and self titled her Americas Princess..... She held her final pageant....
 
  • #756
Before JonBenet's murder, it was the murderers that got the attention. In the OJ Simpson Trial, it was all about OJ not Nicole and Ron. Then we have Ted Bundy, BTK, Zodiac, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. They are household names but their victims are not. It wasn't until the 2000s when the victims began to get more attention than their killers. Is it possible that Patsy killed JonBenet thinking that she would be the one who would get the attention? That she would be the "star" of the murder? Could her UMI cause her to not care if people called her a child killer since it meant they were talking about her?

That's the classic Munchausen-by-Proxy scenario, eileen. If you read the post I made on the "Loved to Death" thread, I expand on that a bit.

The cover of DOI has John and Patsy's picture on the front with JonBenet's picture on the back cover. Why? I have to wonder if that was Patsy's idea to have her picture on the front where everyone in the bookstore can see it and relegate JonBenet to the back of the book where she belonged.

HMMM!
 
  • #757
That's the classic Munchausen-by-Proxy scenario, eileen. If you read the post I made on the "Loved to Death" thread, I expand on that a bit.

I did read the "Loved to Death" thread a while back. I thought you said though that Patsy staged JonBenet's death so JonBenet would be famous in death? I think that Patsy wanted herself to be famous in death and wasn't happy that JonBenet was the one who got the majority of the attention.
 
  • #758
I did read the "Loved to Death" thread a while back. I thought you said though that Patsy staged JonBenet's death so JonBenet would be famous in death? I think that Patsy wanted herself to be famous in death and wasn't happy that JonBenet was the one who got the majority of the attention.



Ahhhh, very much like Casey Anthony! Who was very unhappy about people being more concerned with the missing Caylee, then her own drama of being in jail for her disappearance.

Keanu Reeves, had a line in the movie "Parenthood." He said, " You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming a--hole be a parent." The character, Todd, had been abused by his father.

Everything in Patsy Ramseys life was about her and nobody else but her.
 
  • #759
I did read the "Loved to Death" thread a while back. I thought you said though that Patsy staged JonBenet's death so JonBenet would be famous in death? I think that Patsy wanted herself to be famous in death and wasn't happy that JonBenet was the one who got the majority of the attention.

You have good eyes, eileen.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
 
  • #760
You have good eyes, eileen.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

So you're saying that Patsy wanted both herself and JonBenet to be famous because of JonBenet's murder? JonBenet and Patsy are definitely very well known; but I would say that JonBenet is a lot more famous than her mother is. After all, it's JonBenet whose picture is on the covers of magazines, it's JonBenet whose videos are shown on the news, it's JonBenet who is a household name. Also, what kind of fame was Patsy looking for? Did she want to be known as the innocent, grieving mother of the most famous murdered child since the Lindbergh baby? Since most of the country believed she was guilty, I would say that plan backfired on her. Or is just being known as the mother of JonBenet Ramsey, whether people think she's a killer or not, good enough for her?

I posted the following post before explaining why I believe if Patsy's goal was fame after JonBenet's murder, it was fame for herself:

Many people have noted Patsy acting more dramatic than genuinely emotional in the years following JonBenet's murder. She has also referred to JonBenet as, "That Child" which seems like an aloof way to talk about her murdered daughter. Now if Patsy was jealous of JonBenet when JonBenet was alive, then I think her jealously could have only magnified after JonBenet was murdered. Yes, Patsy did become famous after JonBenet's murder but she wasn't the one on the cover of magazines, etc.

Before JonBenet's murder, it was the murderers that got the attention. In the OJ Simpson Trial, it was all about OJ not Nicole and Ron. Then we have Ted Bundy, BTK, Zodiac, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. They are household names but their victims are not. It wasn't until the 2000s when the victims began to get more attention than their killers. Is it possible that Patsy killed JonBenet thinking that she would be the one who would get the attention? That she would be the "star" of the murder? Could her UMI cause her to not care if people called her a child killer since it meant they were talking about her?

The cover of DOI has John and Patsy's picture on the front with JonBenet's picture on the back cover. Why? I have to wonder if that was Patsy's idea to have her picture on the front where everyone in the bookstore can see it and relegate JonBenet to the back of the book where she belonged.
 

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