JBR, PR and UMI

[JMO8778]

This seems to fit...

Overview
Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which there is an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one's self.

Symptoms
A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

Reacts to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
Takes advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
Has feelings of self-importance
Exaggerates achievements and talents
Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
Requires constant attention and admiration
Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
Has obsessive self-interest
Pursues mainly selfish goals

If PR did have NPD, JB would have been a prop for Patsy to gain attention and admiration. When JB refused to cooperate, it could have been disasterous for the child, particularly if PR's surgically menopausal hormones drops came into play.

I agree,and I also think Patsy's emotional immaturity caused her to take things that Jonbenet did personally..things the rest of us would just shrug off as typical 6 yo independent behavior,Patsy translated as 'JB doesn't like me'.Like when JB didn't like the special gift she had picked out for her (the doll),and she didn't want to do the pageants,didn't want to dress like her mother,etc....rather than just seeing it as the normal behavior that it was,she turned it inward and saw it as JB not liking her.And I think she couldn't handle that...something had to give,and it wasn't going to be Patsy.

 

[BBB167893]

I love this thread. Thanks Super Dave. I think everyone made valid points. Personally I think Patsy and the sisters were sexually abused by their father and possible his friends, I think they knew their mother knew and didn't do anything about it, which would certainly lead to the start of mental illness. I think John was a cold person that didn't show much love, warmth or attention to her, add on her cancer, treatment and meds and I totally agree she was a bomb waiting to explode. As you can tell by all my "I's" this is just my opinion.

You do not stand alone, Becky. I'm with you.

 

[Tadpole12]

"The footage says alot. PR wasn't a centered person, imo..."

Hmmm...I dare anyone to not be "off" and not "centered" in ANY aspect of their lives after something like this happens. I certainly would be off my rocker and not ever normal, ever again. Completely screwed emotionally and mentally!

IMO, if a parent had to endure this horrific crime, MY hinky meter would go off if they responded in the opposite fashion by being very centered and spot on...but that's just me.

Hi eleven.

That's a point I had considered.
Post trauma and well medicated, I can not presume what PR's state of mental health would have been.

Her video appearances are the only 3D, kinda, true source on which to draw a vague personality profile of PR.

Her LKL interviews are poignant.

In her appearances on LKL, the audio at beginning of the program is affected, as PR makes primal guttural utterances as LK and JR engage in the interview. She's barely able to contain herself, but and as you mention, rather, how, should she have behaved on camera?
In that hour, she can barely contain herself.

 

[ami]

I guess I'm resurrecting a kind of old thread here, but it was linked from the members theories thread and I find it so interesting.

Was PR ever given any psychological tests, I wonder? You know the tests that would gauge BP or NPD, and also will register if the test taker is being evasive or trying to "fake" for lack of a better term.

I personally don't believe NPD seems to fit PR's profile, only because I've had close life contact with an NPD and to this day when I'm near someone or reading a memoir written by someone who seems to have similar qualities, my skin crawls. But I might be able to see some other emotional disorder in her, perhaps brought on by extreme stress, instant menopause or perhaps even her just JBR's death (I say this because all of my knowledge of her comes from post-JBR-death interviews and transcripts).

The anger and rage she exhibited during the ST interview doesn't bother me in the least. IF she was innocent, she had every right to be enraged. I would be, were I innocent and grieving and tired of being accused.

Another thing - does anyone ever wonder what the pre-edited version of DOI looked like? If they had a good editor, I wonder if some passages weren't sanitized or smoothed over to make them more acceptable. In other words, when PR was describing Christmas morning and said that JBR looked at the special My Twinn doll and just set it aside, and PR and JR exchanged shrugs as if to say, "eh, it happens, what can you do?" --- in the book it was completely normal. You do pick out special gifts that your kids toss aside and it is disappointing. But I wonder, just playing with the theory that this was something that truly angered and hurt her, how PR originally described that scene in the first draft?

 

[BBB167893]

I guess I'm resurrecting a kind of old thread here, but it was linked from the members theories thread and I find it so interesting.

Wow, I didn't know that.

Was PR ever given any psychological tests, I wonder? You know the tests that would gauge BP or NPD, and also will register if the test taker is being evasive or trying to "fake" for lack of a better term.

No psychological evaluations were done at all, that I know of.

 

[DeeDee249]

I guess I'm resurrecting a kind of old thread here, but it was linked from the members theories thread and I find it so interesting.

Was PR ever given any psychological tests, I wonder? You know the tests that would gauge BP or NPD, and also will register if the test taker is being evasive or trying to "fake" for lack of a better term.

I personally don't believe NPD seems to fit PR's profile, only because I've had close life contact with an NPD and to this day when I'm near someone or reading a memoir written by someone who seems to have similar qualities, my skin crawls. But I might be able to see some other emotional disorder in her, perhaps brought on by extreme stress, instant menopause or perhaps even her just JBR's death (I say this because all of my knowledge of her comes from post-JBR-death interviews and transcripts).

The anger and rage she exhibited during the ST interview doesn't bother me in the least. IF she was innocent, she had every right to be enraged. I would be, were I innocent and grieving and tired of being accused.

Another thing - does anyone ever wonder what the pre-edited version of DOI looked like? If they had a good editor, I wonder if some passages weren't sanitized or smoothed over to make them more acceptable. In other words, when PR was describing Christmas morning and said that JBR looked at the special My Twinn doll and just set it aside, and PR and JR exchanged shrugs as if to say, "eh, it happens, what can you do?" --- in the book it was completely normal. You do pick out special gifts that your kids toss aside and it is disappointing. But I wonder, just playing with the theory that this was something that truly angered and hurt her, how PR originally described that scene in the first draft?

I think it can be assured that the Rs book DOI was vetted by not only an editor, but by their attorneys too. Let's face it, the book was written to put the spin on it that the parents wanted out there. This is completely expected. How could it not be?

 

[ami]

I think it can be assured that the Rs book DOI was vetted by not only an editor, but by their attorneys too. Let's face it, the book was written to put the spin on it that the parents wanted out there. This is completely expected. How could it not be?

I know, and I did expect it. I'm just curious what it looked like in its raw form. Before they sanitized it.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I have lurked on this forum for almost five years (only started really posting in the last year). I am trying to read all of the threads (I know this will take forever, but I'm in for the long haul). That being said, this is the most thought provoking thread I have seen so far. I am sure that I will have something to add later on as I believe that the key to getting justice for JonBenet will be found right here. If we are lucky, JR will tell all before he goes or someone in Boulder will do the right thing.

Super Dave, everybody may think I am being morbid as well, but I agree on the autopsy. Here in Georgia, if a person is in hospice (I'm almost sure that Patsy was), they tell you not to call 911 when the person passes. This is so that there wont be an autopsy. If 911 is called in the event of a death, legally there must be an autopsy. My dear MIL died of cancer a few years ago and this is one of the first things our hospice nurse told us. Now I am off to get my thoughts together. Many thanks for starting this thread!

 

[BBB167893]

I have lurked on this forum for almost five years (only started really posting in the last year). I am trying to read all of the threads (I know this will take forever, but I'm in for the long haul). That being said, this is the most thought provoking thread I have seen so far. I am sure that I will have something to add later on as I believe that the key to getting justice for JonBenet will be found right here. If we are lucky, JR will tell all before he goes or someone in Boulder will do the right thing.

Super Dave, everybody may think I am being morbid as well, but I agree on the autopsy. Here in Georgia, if a person is in hospice (I'm almost sure that Patsy was), they tell you not to call 911 when the person passes. This is so that there wont be an autopsy. If 911 is called in the event of a death, legally there must be an autopsy. My dear MIL died of cancer a few years ago and this is one of the first things our hospice nurse told us. Now I am off to get my thoughts together. Many thanks for starting this thread!

I know. My mum went into hospice before she died, and they told us the same thing.

You're most welcome.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have lurked on this forum for almost five years (only started really posting in the last year). I am trying to read all of the threads (I know this will take forever, but I'm in for the long haul). That being said, this is the most thought provoking thread I have seen so far. I am sure that I will have something to add later on as I believe that the key to getting justice for JonBenet will be found right here. If we are lucky, JR will tell all before he goes or someone in Boulder will do the right thing.

Super Dave, everybody may think I am being morbid as well, but I agree on the autopsy. Here in Georgia, if a person is in hospice (I'm almost sure that Patsy was), they tell you not to call 911 when the person passes. This is so that there wont be an autopsy. If 911 is called in the event of a death, legally there must be an autopsy. My dear MIL died of cancer a few years ago and this is one of the first things our hospice nurse told us. Now I am off to get my thoughts together. Many thanks for starting this thread!

New Jersey may be different, but here, you don't call 911 because you don't want extraordinary life-saving measures. Not because you don't want an autopsy. An autopsy may be done whenever someone dies at home to rule out that there was nothing other than the natural progress of the illness (withholding food or water, suffocation, etc.), so there might be an autopsy, and the family cannot do anything to stop it.
The 911 call (at least here) also negates any living will or DNR that the person may have had. A 911 call is considered a call for life-saving measures, and it cannot be proven without doubt that the ill person did not make the call themselves. Anyone can change their mind at any time about being resuscitated.
I know this because a relative was home on hospice care, and he died at home. Hospice workers called his doctor, not 911. But police came, and an ambulance, and there was an autopsy because he died at home, though his wife did not want one.

 

[joeskidbeck]

New Jersey may be different, but here, you don't call 911 because you don't want extraordinary life-saving measures. Not because you don't want an autopsy. An autopsy may be done whenever someone dies at home to rule out that there was nothing other than the natural progress of the illness (withholding food or water, suffocation, etc.), so there might be an autopsy, and the family cannot do anything to stop it.
The 911 call (at least here) also negates any living will or DNR that the person may have had. A 911 call is considered a call for life-saving measures, and it cannot be proven without doubt that the ill person did not make the call themselves. Anyone can change their mind at any time about being resuscitated.
I know this because a relative was home on hospice care, and he died at home. Hospice workers called his doctor, not 911. But police came, and an ambulance, and there was an autopsy because he died at home, though his wife did not want one.

I'm sure the law here only applies to persons in hospice care because, sadly, the doctors have already proclaimed that it's only a matter of time. In any other situation there would be an autopsy regardless of whether or not the family wanted one. We were instructed to call our hospice nurse who would then come over and determine time of death (that must also be because of the hospice care because I would think that a doctor would have to do that).

 

[WHITEFANG]

“If you have ever looked into the eyes of a person who is brain dead, you will know that from all appearances, they are dead. I believe that after the head injury, her breathing and pulse were so shallow as to appear non existent. They really believed she was dead, but it became apparent during the staging that she was still alive, so someone had to stop her breathing. I do NOT believe this was Patsy. More likely JR.

I do belive the head injury was caused by Patsy in a fit of rage. Everyone seems to believe she was taking Klonipin (she may have talked about this in an interview, not sure which one). I think JR went along with this because he had already lost one daughter and this is going to mean that he will lose Patsy and JB. He may not have been the warmest man alive, but I don't think he wanted Patsy to spend her last days in prison.[/QUOTE]”

Joeskidbeck, you believe the Ramsey’s thought Jon was dead, because in reality she was brain dead, which can mimic death. So, as they tried to create a setting, which would have the semblance of an authentic murder scene, they discovered their beloved, precious, little girl was still alive! While they were ecstatic and overjoyed at this miraculous turn of events, reality crept into their consciousness. It was like a terrible dream. Their celebration must end, quickly. After all, the girl had been injured through a careless burst of red-hot anger and no one could be allowed to find out. No one could learn the truth. The Ramsey’s were human.

They busted a paint stirrer, wove it around a small handmade garrote, and began to turn it. It tightened, ever so gradually, and she began to cough, gasp for air and fight for her life. Her back arched. My, how strong she is, they thought, as they turned that little scrap of wood a little more. Tears flowed from her eyes, like a squeezed sponge. Her face was purple-red, burning eyes bulging from their sockets. She resembled a freakish monster. Tighter. Tighter. Hold on, she is almost gone. Just a little longer. Tighter. That's it. Hold on. Hold on, just a little longer. Bye, bye,
my love.

She was still.

 

[Kateyes]

I read here but don't often post. Very thought provoking post. As an RN who taught psych nursing I often thought that more people are undiagnosed of their mental illnesses than are diagnosed. The very overtly ill are diagnosed easily, usually because they come into the system often - a breakdown, etc. and the family brings them into mental health. But so many more people suffer from mental illnesses such as borderline personality disorders, narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, etc. Many times these disorders overlap and some people have symptoms of several disorders. In my extended family I had a cousin who suffered from bipolar and also had progressed in later life to a frankly psychotic state. She functioned very well to the opinion of those who did not live with her. But ask anyone who lived with her or interacted with her daily for any length of time and a different picture emerged. Manipulative, conniving, and often downright mean and vengeful - those adjectives described this person quite well to those in the family, while others outside the family would have listened to the stories in disbelief. The manipulative behaviors are a defense mechanism employed by such mentally ill people. This defense mechanism is not done on a conscious level, but rather is innate to the pathology of their mental disorder.

I believe it is totally possible that PR suffered from an UMI and that this UMI led to JBR's death. Sadly, I don't think even those who did know the truth will ever reveal it, most likeley because even if those who know were not involved in the little girl's death, all who know were involved in the cover-up in one way or another. JMHO

 

[DeeDee249]

JB's corpse showed no evidence of the bulging eyes, swollen tongue, purple, swollen face. Hanging victims, particularly suicides, will exhibit all these things if found before decomposition. Hanging is strangulation, too.
JB was "found" about 12 hours after her death. The lack of these tell-tale strangulation signs indicates that she was dying (but not dead) when the garrote was applied. While there was some evidence of the flesh of her throat coming over the ligature, it seems more from the ligature being tight enough to push deeply into her throat rather than her throat swell over it. The coroner would (hopefully) note evidence of swelling of the head/face/ It was knotted at the nape of the neck, and she would have been on her stomach when that was done. There is an autopsy photo showing a partial view of JB's mouth, tongue, cheek and jaw. Her tongue is not swollen, and visible because of rigor mortis holding her mouth/jaw fixed open.

I am RDI (or at least RKWH - R knows what happened) and I have a hard time with a parent continuing the strangulation on a sputtering, coughing, bulging JB. Her parents were not homicidal maniacs after all, but panicked beyond belief in the face of a horrible event. I can go with it on a seemingly lifeless (but them not knowing she was alive) JB. The almost perfectly circumferential ligature furrow, with no evidence of struggle, seems to indicate she did not struggle against it, as does the tape on her mouth, which showed no evidence of her tongue or mouth moving in struggle against it.
Police make note of the absence of these things because they see plenty of victims where the evidence of a struggle before death is very apparent.

 

[WHITEFANG]

As Patsy slowly executed her own flesh and blood, as she lay motionless, silent and harmless by manually cutting off her air supply, rotating a broken paint brush handle around her handmade garrote tied onto Joni's neck is just as putrid, just as disgusting, disturbing, depraved, vile, inhuman, vicious, sick, horrible, monstrous, unspeakable, evil, twisted, perverted, cruel, pathetic and indescribable as if her tiny little body heaved in agony.

I cannot fathom a distinction.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I
have a
hard time

with

a parent continuing the strangulation

parents


were not
ho m i ci dal
m
a n iacs

almost
perfectly
circumferential
ligature
furrow

seems to indicate she did not


struggle

 

[WHITEFANG]

I
have a
hard time

with

a parent continuing the strangulation

parents


were not
ho m i ci dal
m
a n iacs

almost
perfectly
circumferential
ligature
furrow

SEEEEEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMS




to indicate she did not struggle

 

[DeeDee249]

Don't quite understand the point of the two previous posts, Whitefang, but one of the main reasons I feel she didn't struggle was because I feel she never regained consciousness after the head bash. I still maintain that came first, and whoever applied the ligature thought she was dead.
An intruder wouldn't have bothered with a staging a strangulation. When the tiny victim collapsed from that head blow, she'd have been left slumped on the floor and the perp would be outta there like sh*t through a goose.

 

[WHITEFANG]

She killed her

 

[joeskidbeck]

She killed her

For all intents and purposes, JB was DEAD after the head blow. She would not have felt anymore pain or had anymore reactions to outside stimulus. I know this from personal experience. Doctors had to show me this in order for me to believe that my dad had already left his body. This so that I would turn off the machinery keeping him alive. The Ramseys were intelligent people. They knew she was already GONE. Whether or not the ligature was for staging or to finish her off (sorry), I do not believe Patsy did it. This was JR's contribution to lead investigators down the wrong road.