JBR, PR and UMI

[WHITEFANG]

So you really are aware of all the reasons that Patsy MAY have snapped and hurt JB, you just refuse to believe that it could have happened.

No, tell me. Give me a run down on that list.

 

[BBB167893]

"That murderer" did not have anything to do with this horror. That murderer's mental illness has EVERYTHING to do with this horror, in my opinion.

We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder.

I have changed my life to care for a granddaughter. Her mother is exceptionally bright, creative, fun, charming, kind, compassionate, etc., except when she is stressed, and then her mental illness makes it dangerous for my granddaughter to be left in her care.

We could just ignore this and act as though it doesn't happen because no one ever sees these actions in public. Her close friends are not around when the worst behaviors happen. However, she is in the care of highly qualified psychiatrists, and they tell us to be vigilant and not leave her alone with her child when she is stressed.

Otherwise, she is the picture of the perfect mother. In public. KWIM?

You have my utmost good wishes.

Also, you above all know what I'm trying to say.

 

[BBB167893]

Super, are you saying that it was impossible for Patsy to have shifted the coverings on Joni enough to have noticed her palms? Or that she was so thoroughly covered her hands couldn't be seen?Are you suggesting that she wasn't carried, at least part way, to see her? That she didn't place her cheek on her cheek, noticing it was cold to the touch?

I'm saying what I'm saying: there's no accounts by anyone who would know that indicates any of what you're saying that I can find.

 

[WHITEFANG]

It's not me you need to tell that to.



How do you figure any of that? Number one, under the law, you can't murder someone you think is already dead.

I'm starting to think that you just say these things to mess with me.[/QUOTE]

To lift her body and tie a garrote around her neck and tighten it until it killed her is unspeakable evil, worse than murder. It is premeditated, it is hands on, it is personal and up close and slow. It is sick, vile and reprehensible, regardless what it's called, or defined as, legally.

What is it called, under the law, when you think your child is dead, because you killed her, but she is still alive, barely, so you try to kill her, but only to fool the cops, because when you killed her the first time, you thought she was dead but you were wrong?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I believe that every parent who killed her own child was exactly like Patsy. All of them are the same. Identical, in fact. Married to millionaires, former Miss West Virgina's, high strung, spoiled, devious, disturbed, benzodiazapine popping, cancer surviving, two glasses of wine consuming, Christmas day weary, hormone imbalanced approaching 40 years old women with a child who soils herself. In fact, it's a miracle any children survive to adulthood. All loved their kids as Patsy did. They were all accidental murders with staging to throw off the fuzz to save their own skin.

I believe you ran most of them down right here.

 

[BBB167893]

To lift her body and tie a garrote around her neck and tighten it until it killed her is unspeakable evil, worse that murder. It is premeditated, it is hands on, it is personal and up close and it is slow. It is sick, vile and reprehensible, regardless what it's called, or defined as, legally.

If you're saying that the law often falls short in terms of moral considerations, I'm with you 100%.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I'm saying what I'm saying: there's no accounts by anyone who would know that indicates any of what you're saying that I can find.

And yet PR said that very thing happened in the Walters interview...that she put her cheek against JBR's. I posted the link earlier today in another thread. And yet no one else recalls seeing her do that? Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[MurriFlower]

And yet PR said that very thing happened in the Walters interview...that she put her cheek against JBR's. I posted the link earlier today in another thread. And yet no one else recalls seeing her do that? Things that make you go hmmmm.

Found this on ACR, don't know who it's attributed to though:

"Patsy was coming towards the body Of JonBenet, walking with the Assistance of Rev. Hoverstock, and her friends, the Whites and the Fernies. When she entered the hallway where JonBenet lay, she rushed to her and laid down on top of her dead child. Barbara picked up a gray sweatshirt lying on a chair and placed it over the child’s exposed bare feet. Arndt told the family and friends to gather in a circle around JonBenet while Rev. Hoverstock lead them in a prayer. In spite of the numbing shock and grief felt by everyone in the room, they joined Rev. Haberstock in reciting "The Lord's Prayer" as Patsy lay on top of JonBenet crying and moaning. Suddenly, Patsy raised herself onto her knees, lifted her arms into the air and prayed, "Jesus you raised Lazarus from the dead, raise my baby from the dead''

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm saying what I'm saying: there's no accounts by anyone who would know that indicates any of what you're saying that I can find.

Did Patsy see Joni's body under the tree?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I believe you ran most of them down right here.

"We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder."

She was diagnosed with which one?

 

[BBB167893]

Did Patsy see Joni's body under the tree?

I'm pretty sure. If you want to be pedantic about it, she saw the covered body.

 

[WHITEFANG]

And yet PR said that very thing happened in the Walters interview...that she put her cheek against JBR's. I posted the link earlier today in another thread. And yet no one else recalls seeing her do that? Things that make you go hmmmm.

"That murderer" did not have anything to do with this horror. That murderer's mental illness has EVERYTHING to do with this horror, in my opinion.

We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder.

I have changed my life to care for a granddaughter. Her mother is exceptionally bright, creative, fun, charming, kind, compassionate, etc., except when she is stressed, and then her mental illness makes it dangerous for my granddaughter to be left in her care.

We could just ignore this and act as though it doesn't happen because no one ever sees these actions in public. Her close friends are not around when the worst behaviors happen. However, she is in the care of highly qualified psychiatrists, and they tell us to be vigilant and not leave her alone with her child when she is stressed.

Otherwise, she is the picture of the perfect mother. In public. KWIM?

OneLove,
Would you show me where to find the diagnosis for Patsy's mental illness? What is it officially?

 

[DeeDee249]

"We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder."

She was diagnosed with which one?

She was never diagnosed with any specific mental illness as far as I know; though I feel she did suffer from severe mental stress I am not so sure she was suffering from a "textbook" mental illness.

 

[MurriFlower]

She was never diagnosed with any specific mental illness as far as I know; though I feel she did suffer from severe mental stress I am not so sure she was suffering from a "textbook" mental illness.

DD I think that's called 'speculation'.

 

[joeskidbeck]

From what I understand, we are pretty much all of us "speculating" on the known evidence. Since the intruder left no evidence (except for questionable dna), we have to consider the emotional frame of mind for everyone in the house that night. If I knew that BR or JR had a condition that could very well be the cause of mental stress, or extreme emotions, I would be taking a closer look at them. I am talking about the cancer that eventually claimed Patsy's life. If you think it doesn't cause emotional problems, you have never known anyone with a terminal case.

 

[WHITEFANG]

From what I understand, we are pretty much all of us "speculating" on the known evidence. Since the intruder left no evidence (except for questionable dna), we have to consider the emotional frame of mind for everyone in the house that night. If I knew that BR or JR had a condition that could very well be the cause of mental stress, or extreme emotions, I would be taking a closer look at them. I am talking about the cancer that eventually claimed Patsy's life. If you think it doesn't cause emotional problems, you have never known anyone with a terminal case.

What is the known evidence that Patsy suffered from a mental illness?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm pretty sure. If you want to be pedantic about it, she saw the covered body.

Did she touch her body?

 

[WHITEFANG]

DD I think that's called 'speculation'.

Do you know or have you heard of anyone who doesn't suffer from mental stress? What is the difference between mental stress and mental illness, the kind which goes unrecognized everyday and leads to the murders of children by their parents?

 

[joeskidbeck]

I think if we could have seen the video made on Christmas morning we would have seen a huge sign of PR's undiagnosed mental condition. I didn't say illness because she did not have to be mentally ill to have snapped under all of the pressure. That can happen to anyone. You have to believe that it was filmed and the camera did not have a dead battery as they claimed. This is not a family that would take chances on their kid's Christmas reactions not being on film. I believe PR lost control when JB opened the My Twin doll and did not show the appreciation her mother expected. Too bad the footage is gone forever. I know someone is going to want to know where this info is located, so I'm off to ACR to find the link. Back shortly...

 

[OneLove]

Thanks for your kind words, Joeskidbeck and SuperDave. In recent years, I've met many grandparents who have stepped in to help when help was needed. Everyone I've talked to goes to sleep at night with no regrets for having done so, even when the road was rough.

Then there are those who are more apt to live in denial. Those who deny that their loved ones are not perfect tend to bring much attention to "accomplishments" and refuse to accept or discuss the "flaws". Some do so in spite of very public and huge flashing neon signs in their faces. Many do so for many years after the death of a loved one, preferring instead the "perfect mausoleum-quality wax-figure person" rather than the real flesh and blood person with human qualities, both good and not-so-much.

I love my very real flesh and blood daughter-in-law very much, who in her virtue is incredibly wonderful. She did not come by her "flaws" in isolation. Knowing she is loved is very healing for her and helps her accept her therapy with an open heart. I think I can understand what you feel, Joeskidbeck. Where would our children (and grandchildren) be without our love and support, imperfections and all? I salute you for being willing to SEE your daughter's troubling issues and stand strong for her and your grandkids.

As for the possibility that Patsy Ramsey may have had undiagnosed mental illnesses and/or personality disorders, I am not licensed to diagnose. However, in speculating, I would explore Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and possibly psychosis following on the heals of adrenal exhaustion much like what we see in PostPartum Psychosis. The adrenal exhaustion would be due to SO MANY factors we know of going on in Patsy's life at the time. I am not without compassion for her. I think it may be hard for people, particularly close family, to accept that they can LOVE her and still understand how she might have reached an unfortunate breaking point. It does not have to be an "either/or" situation.

Warmest regards to all the sleuthers who still care deeply for JonBenet, after all this time. LOVE SPRINGS ETERNAL