JBR, PR and UMI

[my_tee_mouse]

Thanks for your kind words, Joeskidbeck and SuperDave. In recent years, I've met many grandparents who have stepped in to help when help was needed. Everyone I've talked to goes to sleep at night with no regrets for having done so, even when the road was rough.

Then there are those who are more apt to live in denial. Those who deny that their loved ones are not perfect tend to bring much attention to "accomplishments" and refuse to accept or discuss the "flaws". Some do so in spite of very public and huge flashing neon signs in their faces. Many do so for many years after the death of a loved one, preferring instead the "perfect mausoleum-quality wax-figure person" rather than the real flesh and blood person with human qualities, both good and not-so-much.

I love my very real flesh and blood daughter-in-law very much, who in her virtue is incredibly wonderful. She did not come by her "flaws" in isolation. Knowing she is loved is very healing for her and helps her accept her therapy with an open heart. I think I can understand what you feel, Joeskidbeck. Where would our children (and grandchildren) be without our love and support, imperfections and all? I salute you for being willing to SEE your daughter's troubling issues and stand strong for her and your grandkids.

As for the possibility that Patsy Ramsey may have had undiagnosed mental illnesses and/or personality disorders, I am not licensed to diagnose. However, in speculating, I would explore Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and possibly psychosis following on the heals of adrenal exhaustion much like what we see in PostPartum Psychosis. The adrenal exhaustion would be due to SO MANY factors we know of going on in Patsy's life at the time. I am not without compassion for her. I think it may be hard for people, particularly close family, to accept that they can LOVE her and still understand how she might have reached an unfortunate breaking point. It does not have to be an "either/or" situation.

Warmest regards to all the sleuthers who still care deeply for JonBenet, after all this time. LOVE SPRINGS ETERNAL

You are a very wise woman. From one grandparent to another: I salute you!

 

[OneLove]

I think if we could have seen the video made on Christmas morning we would have seen a huge sign of PR's undiagnosed mental condition. I didn't say illness because she did not have to be mentally ill to have snapped under all of the pressure. That can happen to anyone. You have to believe that it was filmed and the camera did not have a dead battery as they claimed. This is not a family that would take chances on their kid's Christmas reactions not being on film. I believe PR lost control when JB opened the My Twin doll and did not show the appreciation her mother expected. Too bad the footage is gone forever. I know someone is going to want to know where this info is located, so I'm off to ACR to find the link. Back shortly...

BBM

This kind of incident would likely be a huge trigger for anyone with Borderline Personality Disorder. Rejection is usually the big issue, which is why a BPD person might work so hard to gain "approval" or "admiration" and snap when it is not given.

 

[joeskidbeck]

OneLove, you may not be licensed to diagnose, but you seem to have incredible insight. The reality is that although I believe Patsy did unintenionally harm JonBenet, I feel incredible pity for her. I always have. With all of our theories and beliefs, what matters most in the long run is that Patsy and JonBenet have now had the opportunity to reconcile (true believers know what I mean). I'm sure not one day went by that Patsy did not pray to the Father for forgiveness. Only He can judge her now. My opinion matters not one whit.

 

[MurriFlower]

I think if we could have seen the video made on Christmas morning we would have seen a huge sign of PR's undiagnosed mental condition. I didn't say illness because she did not have to be mentally ill to have snapped under all of the pressure. That can happen to anyone. You have to believe that it was filmed and the camera did not have a dead battery as they claimed. This is not a family that would take chances on their kid's Christmas reactions not being on film. I believe PR lost control when JB opened the My Twin doll and did not show the appreciation her mother expected. Too bad the footage is gone forever. I know someone is going to want to know where this info is located, so I'm off to ACR to find the link. Back shortly...

The other possibility Beck is that there was a dead battery and PR did not have UMI.

 

[joeskidbeck]

The other possibility Beck is that there was a dead battery and PR did not have UMI.

Absolutely!

 

[OneLove]

OneLove, you may not be licensed to diagnose, but you seem to have incredible insight. The reality is that although I believe Patsy did unintenionally harm JonBenet, I feel incredible pity for her. I always have. With all of our theories and beliefs, what matters most in the long run is that Patsy and JonBenet have now had the opportunity to reconcile (true believers know what I mean). I'm sure not one day went by that Patsy did not pray to the Father for forgiveness. Only He can judge her now. My opinion matters not one whit.

I completely agree with every word you have said here, and you stated it so very well!

I do hope that forgiveness meant more to Patsy than appearances. I hope the same for all the family. I believe that would do more to engender kind feelings and compassion toward them than anything else ever could. I think it would also help some sleep better at night. My prayers are with them.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I think if we could have seen the video made on Christmas morning we would have seen a huge sign of PR's undiagnosed mental condition. I didn't say illness because she did not have to be mentally ill to have snapped under all of the pressure. That can happen to anyone. You have to believe that it was filmed and the camera did not have a dead battery as they claimed. This is not a family that would take chances on their kid's Christmas reactions not being on film. I believe PR lost control when JB opened the My Twin doll and did not show the appreciation her mother expected. Too bad the footage is gone forever. I know someone is going to want to know where this info is located, so I'm off to ACR to find the link. Back shortly...

When she lost control, why didn't she kill her then, or at least kill someone?
A family like that wouldn't take chances on not having batteries? They were perfect?
That video would have shown a huge sign of her UMI? Sorry, for you it is not illness it is a "mental condition" What was her UMC? For all others who call her condition "illness" what was her UMI?
She was never formally diagnosed with mental illness, but she was mentally ill? What diagnosis do you give her?
Besides Christmas morning, when did she behave like she was mentally ill or mentally conditioned? If one is Mentally Conditioned, what do they do? Kill, snap, hit with baseball bats? Run over squirrels, dogs, cats?
Not showing appreciation for that doll triggered her loss of control?

Why didn't she kill Burke, too? Any ideas? What about her neighbors? Did she attempt to kill some, any, most of them? Since her manifestation of mental illness was apparent to many others, I assume she had had it for a while. How many others did she murder, assault, smash, strangle, whack over the head, shoot, stab or smother? Quite a few? She had a police record a mile long?

Since she perpetrated this crime, was she diagnosed by a professional, placed on meds, suffer any relapses? Any more attempted murders, batteries, use of deadly weapons with the intent to harm, any thing like these kinds of things?

 

[OneLove]

Whitefang, I respectfully suggest that you read some of the published materials about Borderline Personality Disorder to start with. You will probably find it very enlightening, and then you may have a much better understanding of many of your questions you have asked.

It is clear from your questions that you do not have knowledge or experience with some of the possible mental illnesses and personality disorders that have been mentioned as possibilities in Patsy's case.

Also, if you better educate yourself on these, you may be in a much better position to credibly advocate that she did NOT have any signs of these; who knows?

Either way, you will be doing yourself a great service.

Warm regards and best wises to you in your journey.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"That murderer" did not have anything to do with this horror." THEFANG

"That murderer's mental illness has EVERYTHING to do with this horror, in my opinion." OL

For example? FANG

"We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder." OL

For example? FANG

People with Patsy's ignored or minimized signs of mental illness..." which ones? MOREFANG


"As for the possibility that Patsy Ramsey may have had undiagnosed mental illnesses and/or personality disorders, I am not licensed to diagnose." OL

Didn't you just say that Yates' mental illness had everything to do with this horror? FANG

"However, in speculating...." on the heals of adrenal exhaustion much like what we see in PostPartum Psychosis. The adrenal exhaustion would be due to SO MANY factors we know of going on in Patsy's life at the time. OL

Go ahead, like.....? WF

 

[MurriFlower]

When she lost control, why didn't she kill her then, or at least kill someone?
A family like that wouldn't take chances on not having batteries? They were perfect?
That video would have shown a huge sign of her UMI? Sorry, for you it is not illness it is a "mental condition" What was her UMC? For all others who call her condition "illness" what was her UMI?
She was never formally diagnosed with mental illness, but she was mentally ill? What diagnosis do you give her?
Besides Christmas morning, when did she behave like she was mentally ill or mentally conditioned? If one is Mentally Conditioned, what do they do? Kill, snap, hit with baseball bats? Run over squirrels, dogs, cats?
Not showing appreciation for that doll triggered her loss of control?

Why didn't she kill Burke, too? Any ideas? What about her neighbors? Did she attempt to kill some, any, most of them? Since her manifestation of mental illness was apparent to many others, I assume she had had it for a while. How many others did she murder, assault, smash, strangle, whack over the head, shoot, stab or smother? Quite a few? She had a police record a mile long?

Since she perpetrated this crime, has she been diagnosed by a professional, placed on meds, suffered any relapses? Any more attempted murders, batteries, use of deadly weapons with the intent to harm, any thing like these kinds of things?

Yeah WF I have to agree, all this speculation about UMI is bringing out some wild assumptions. We could just as easily speculate that the murderer was the neighbourhood madman (or woman) never previously diagnosed and never after having another 'episode'. The whole idea that PR snapped then snapped back again is fanciful to say the least. I think that if she DID suffer from some UMI before JBR's murder, the stress, remorse, anger, sadness of her precious daughter's killing followed by the media circus that followed would have tipped her over the edge. Whilst we have no evidence of how PR behaved prior the the murder, we have plenty of evidence (including vision) of how she behaved after. It all seemed perfectly normal to me under the circumstances.

 

[WHITEFANG]

It is clear from your questions that you do not have knowledge or experience with some of the possible mental illnesses and personality disorders that have been mentioned as possibilities in Patsy's case.

I asked you which mental illness or personality disorder diagnosis was hers.

You said you don't know, isn't that right?

Also, if you better educate yourself on these, you may be in a much better position to credibly advocate that she did NOT have any signs of these; who knows?

What did I advocate?

Either way, you will be doing yourself a great service.

Did she suffer from a distracted self-image? Did she wander from one interest/occupation to another, losing many jobs and jumping from one hobby to another? Did she have a history of cutting herself and failed suicide attempts? Periods of psychotic behavior? Many marriages/relationships/ addictions to D and A/ or sex and sexual preference vacillation?

Saw things in black and white extremes, no gray?

Either idolized or degraded the same person?

Warm regards and best wises to you in your journey.[/QUOTE]

Back at ya!

 

[DeeDee249]

DD I think that's called 'speculation'.

Yeah. So? This whole forum is speculation- on BOTH sides.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Yeah WF I have to agree, all this speculation about UMI is bringing out some wild assumptions. We could just as easily speculate that the murderer was the neighbourhood madman (or woman) never previously diagnosed and never after having another 'episode'. The whole idea that PR snapped then snapped back again is fanciful to say the least. I think that if she DID suffer from some UMI before JBR's murder, the stress, remorse, anger, sadness of her precious daughter's killing followed by the media circus that followed would have tipped her over the edge. Whilst we have no evidence of how PR behaved prior the the murder, we have plenty of evidence (including vision) of how she behaved after. It all seemed perfectly normal to me under the circumstances.

Imagine having hundreds of those animals camped out around your house. Soon after this, we would hate them. At least for a while, when they received some much deserved scrutiny themselves. Poor Princess Di. Despite all her personal struggles, she loved her kids and "her public" didn't she?

 

[OneLove]

<<< respectfully snipped >>>

has she been diagnosed by a professional, placed on meds, suffered any relapses? Any more attempted murders, batteries, use of deadly weapons with the intent to harm, any thing like these kinds of things?

Was Patsy Ramsey ever seen professionally by a qualified psychiatrist at any time in her adult life, either before or after JonBenet's death? If so, did she keep more than 2 or 3 appointments with the same physician?

Your other questions, although I'm sure you have protective intent and much passionate feeling about them, will be much better answered by your own conscience after you've better educated yourself on the issues. Until then, your defensive blocking simply delays progress.

I really do wish you the best. That is not a snide comment. :HBwhiteflag:

 

[OneLove]

Also, for what its worth, neither Diane Downs, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier, nor wrestler whose name I can't remember were diagnosed before they murdered their children. Only Andrea Yates was in the care of a qualified psychiatrist, and his professional advice was egregiously ignored by Andrea's family members.

A person has to seek diagnosis before diagnosis can be given. Some people would rather DIE than see a psychiatrist or admit that a loved one NEEDS a psychiatrist.

ETA: Keep in mind that I have only selected VERY FEW cases from the volumes and volumes of guilty child killers.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Was Patsy Ramsey ever seen professionally by a qualified psychiatrist at any time in her adult life, either before or after JonBenet's death? If so, did she keep more than 2 or 3 appointments with the same physician?

Your other questions, although I'm sure you have protective intent

don't worry about my intent

and much passionate feeling about them, will be much better answered by your own

conscience

nothing to do with my conscience, which is very good, thanks

after you've better educated


try me.

I just asked you about major symptoms of BPD and you had no response about them.

yourself on the issues.


Until then, your defensive blocking simply delays progress.

Name one thing I blocked? One?

I really do wish you the best. That is not a snide comment. :HBwhiteflag:

Back at ya.

But, I didn't ask myself those questions and for you not to answer any of them, not one, says far more about you than me. Did she see things in black and white? How about answering that? Do you know what I'm referring to? What are the other major categories of BPD as defined in the DSM-4?

Please OneLove. don't be coy. Don't make bold statements of fact and then run away making patronizing comments to someone calling your bluff?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Also, for what its worth, neither Diane Downs, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier, nor wrestler whose name I can't remember were diagnosed before they murdered their children. Only Andrea Yates was in the care of a qualified psychiatrist, and his professional advice was egregiously ignored by Andrea's family members.

A person has to seek diagnosis before diagnosis can be given. Some people would rather DIE than see a psychiatrist or admit that a loved one NEEDS a psychiatrist.

ETA: Keep in mind that I have only selected VERY FEW cases from the volumes and volumes of guilty child killers.

Why was Yates diagnosed? She was dangerous. That murderer had nothing to do with this horror. Go back, read my questions and answer them as best you can. If you don't want to or if you can't, please don't sound so foolish by rebuking me with silly comments.

 

[OneLove]

Back at ya. But, I didn't ask myself those questions and for you not to answer any of them, not one, says far more about you than me. Did she see things in black and white? How about answering that? Do you know what I'm referring to? What are the other major groups of symptoms of BPD as defined in the DSM-4? Please OneLove. don't be coy. Don't make bold statements of fact and then run away with patronizing comments to someone calling your bluff.

:laugh:ther_beatingA_Dead

Hahaha....really.....those who have known me here for very long know I don't have the temperament for "coy". But I AM very familiar with it as a personality trait in many clients I have worked with professionally over the years. :trout:

I also have no bluff. You get what you see. I don't play games and I don't "engage" when it is pointless or nonproductive. Most reading here know what I mean by that. Most of your answers are within yourself. Again, I wish you nothing but the best. Peace to you and yours.

 

[OneLove]

Was Patsy Ramsey ever seen professionally by a qualified psychiatrist at any time in her adult life, either before or after JonBenet's death? If so, did she keep more than 2 or 3 appointments with the same physician?
<< snipped >>

I really do wish you the best. That is not a snide comment. :HBwhiteflag:

:twocents:

 

[WHITEFANG]

SoWhitefang, I respectfully suggest that you read some of the published materials about Borderline Personality Disorder to start with.

Which books would you recommend? What do you consider to be the authoritative works on BPD? Who are your favorite authors? Moskovitz, Gunderson, Yeomans?

You will probably find it very enlightening, and then you may have a much better understanding of many of your questions you have asked.

OneLove, which one of my questions do I need a better understanding of? All of them? What is it, specifically, that I fail to understand about them?

What don't you understand about my questions?

ETA: Keep in mind that I have only selected VERY FEW cases from the volumes and volumes of guilty child killers.[/QUOTE]


(Woe, woe, now. We are talking about parents with UMI who murder their children. Name just two of those volumes among the volumes and volumes, won't you?

And, just select HALF OF THE REST of those cases from the volumes and volumes, please. Remember, you said everyday moms and dads, with UMI, kill their kids, so that's 3,650+ since Patsy. Mention just 1700 cases, okay? Use all the volumes you want.